Community Question | FFB or No FFB?

[Mr Deap]

As for the being faster argument...I'd rather develop speed with FFB than acquire it through hacks and exploits of the system.

Sorry I didn't meant as exploit or hack. It's a term to use as a joke in order to point finger wrong thing so they stop to defend what is actually wrong.

It's more like the FFB is not intuitive. People end up turn it off, cause it's stupid to force the brain adapt. Isn't it simply smart to not do it. I mean, in order to not punish yourself on something that doesn't make sense.

 

[StefanoCasillo]

I'd say that FF is an essential element to BUILD control and understanding of what the virtual car is doing.

Once that phase is passed (for most of us, that could mean never) a case could be made for FF becoming irrelevant because the driver will be so "ahead" of what the car is doing (actually GOING to do) that any feedback coming from the wheel will be already "too late"... this is probably even more obvious on super fast tracks requiring very smooth and minimal inputs (ie ovals) as already pointed out in the thread.

But, of course, if one's shooting for realism turning off FF is a huge step back.

 

[Mr Deap]

Some people adjust the FFB to troll people

 

[mantasisg]

True, the real fun is just to simply race. Practicing for lots of hours for single race, and hitting pro esports levels and getting to the top of the top is more work than fun, and only few are capable to get that in the first place.

This being said I see absolute no reason to use no FFB for a possible gain of a tenth or two in expense of much less immersion and handicaping realism factor for yourself...

It would be kool if games could detect the power of FFB output used, steering degrees and so...., and then make that data available online, so just we could point fingers

 

[G_B]

There is less risk to be done without forcefeedback but when you have experienced this one how to go back.

Afterwards, in rare situations, some people have no sensation or are too muscular and pull the steering wheel off or on the contrary have never passed their driving test in their life, so yes I understand that there is 1% of people who prefer without force feedback lol

 

[cangrejin]

They want to go faster and win: use the keyboard ... seriously, if you want to win, be a keyboard warrior, everyone will fear and respect you. (You will be like a wise old man, with a robe and a white beard)

but ... if you want to have the best feeling of realism and immersion down to the last detail ... go and buy a real car
(drive on a rainy day = dynamic weather, in the city = ia cars, park where you shouldn't = offtrack ...etc etc).
There is no use having hundreds of dollars spent on "look at me mommy I'm driving (a toy steering wheel and looking at a screen)", take advantage of what you have, and use it to have something REAL.

 

[BillGuy]

No offense to Paul, but I think asking whether or not we simply use force feedback may have been more revealing about the community than the preference for or against it. So here’s my response to the question that wasn’t asked…

I purchased an absolute beast of a wheel about 15 years ago (ECCI) and it’s held up fine with only a minor part and potentiometer replacement during that time. Even if I had the money for an FFB upgrade, my impression is that it would need to be one of the DD offerings just to keep the solid feel I’m used to along with the FFB. A wheel of that type and physical force potential really seems to need a dedicated rig which I simply don’t have room for let alone the additional cost above and beyond the wheel. With my current non-FFB wheel I can simply leave it clamped at the far side of my desk when it’s not being used.

 

[Gate Voltage]

@cangrejin
" best feeling of realism" -- That is exactly what I tried to say -- FFB does not increase realism whatsover! Feel free to feel more immersed by it, but no such forces pull on the steering wheel of a modern race car.

@G_B I tried to explain my motivation for no-FFB. I want to be able to quickly perform opposite-lock corrections like in reality! which is not possible with any of the FFB wheels I ever tried. Can somebody pitch in if they feel that is wrong and that there are FFB wheels that let you do that?

 

[BP]

Sorry I didn't meant as exploit or hack. It's a term to use as a joke in order to point finger wrong thing so they stop to defend what is actually wrong.

It's more like the FFB is not intuitive. People end up turn it off, cause it's stupid to force the brain adapt. Isn't it simply smart to not do it. I mean, in order to not punish yourself on something that doesn't make sense.

It wasn't in response to you so no worries, I caught the joke in your post

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

@cangrejin
" best feeling of realism" -- That is exactly what I tried to say -- FFB does not increase realism whatsover! Feel free to feel more immersed by it, but no such forces pull on the steering wheel of a modern race car.

In games where you drive FWD cars, and you feel the difference between spinning, locking and not doing stupid stuff with your tyres. It will actually be somewhat similar feeling. At least better than no-FFB, and thus more realistic.

Just to be nitpicking on a small thing!

 

[BP]

@G_B I tried to explain my motivation for no-FFB. I want to be able to quickly perform opposite-lock corrections like in reality! which is not possible with any of the FFB wheels I ever tried. Can somebody pitch in if they feel that is wrong and that there are FFB wheels that let you do that?

Well you have to let us know: which wheels have you tried?

 

[Gate Voltage]

@BP I have used the Logitech 3 MOMO Force Feedback wheel (old) and more recently (currently) the Thrustmaster TMX Pro. The problem for me is that the first half-cycle motion of opposite lock is usually fine, but on the counter-motion the belt or gears are producing way too much resistance making the motion unrealistically slow! This part of realism matters to me much more than "immersion"!

 

[Ruy Horta]

With or without a condom? it's kind of the same debate. There is less risk to be done without force but when you have experienced this one how to go back.

Afterwards, in rare situations, some people have no sensation or are too muscular and pull the steering wheel off or on the contrary have never passed their driving test in their life, so yes I understand that there is 1% of people who prefer without force feedback lol

...it doesn’t exactly match up this with or without comparison - I’d say it is an easy bet to claim exactly the opposite. Not that a gentleman tells of course.

 

[BP]

@BP I have used the Logitech 3 MOMO Force Feedback wheel (old) and more recently (currently) the Thrustmaster TMX Pro. The problem for me is that the first half-cycle motion of opposite lock is usually fine, but on the counter-motion the belt or gears are producing way too much resistance making the motion unrealistically slow! This part of realism matters to me much more than "immersion"!

That's why I asked...those wheels can't give you a proper assessment of what FFB is capable of in 2020 (and I'm guessing a lot of non-FFB people might be in the same boat). A properly setup DD wheel might change your mind based on what you said...corrections are actually really easy on mine....barely an inconvenience.

 

[Gate Voltage]

A properly setup DD wheel might change your mind based on what you said...corrections are actually really easy on mine....barely an inconvenience.

I have too many kids for my wife to not kill me if I spent that much money on myself! (irony that people talked about condoms a few posts up )

@BP But anyhow, if this issue is gone with DD wheels then yes, I'd be using FFB with those. It is just that I like Formula racing and to me (I like bite on the front and things oversteery) I can't deal with how much the mechanical FFB wheels slow my fast steering down. Therefore, I race without it. And I am sure I am missing an entire additional info channel on what the car does but I have tried and was quite unhappy with (mechanical) FFB

 

[Jim Layee]

sad gamepad noises

Aww hugs

 

[Turk]

I had to sit down after hearing people might not use FFB on purpose. Surely no?

Back in my early days of sim racing I had a Fanatec Forza wheel. Over time the FFB gradually died on it. I would get awful pains in my shoulder trying to race with no FFB, it was like I had to work 10 times harder and constantly do micro corrections with no idea what was happening until the car visibly lost traction.

 

[Jonny Austin]

The constant chat around FFB & tire models in sims is a side issue that has no effect on performance,it is just a personal preference.Every new sim improves on the previous versions.If you are fast in ACC in a GT3 car,with enough practice you will be fast in AMS or Iracing in a GT3 car.

 

[CrimsonEminence]

I have used the Logitech 3 MOMO Force Feedback wheel (old) and more recently (currently) the Thrustmaster TMX Pro. The problem for me is that the first half-cycle motion of opposite lock is usually fine, but on the counter-motion the belt or gears are producing way too much resistance making the motion unrealistically slow! This part of realism matters to me much more than "immersion"!

That's why I asked...those wheels can't give you a proper assessment of what FFB is capable of in 2020 (and I'm guessing a lot of non-FFB people might be in the same boat). A properly setup DD wheel might change your mind based on what you said...corrections are actually really easy on mine....barely an inconvenience.

A T300, T500, CSL and CSW will already accellerate a lot faster, without coming nearly into the DD-Sector, cost wise.
I have a "collection" of the InterAct V4, Microsoft Sidewinder non-FFB, 2 retired Logitech MOMO, a G27 and a CSW 2.5 (also a CSL before), so had some toys at hand here to test and especially the difference between the Logitech MOMO and CSL or CSW 2.5 is not even sanely descibable. There are simply no words for it, how far this has become (also software wise) (I actually tend to take my hands off the CSW, when spinning hard or crashing with "jolty" games)

 

[Jim Layee]

With or without a condom? it's kind of the same debate. There is less risk to be done without force but when you have experienced this one how to go back.

Afterwards, in rare situations, some people have no sensation or are too muscular and pull the steering wheel off or on the contrary have never passed their driving test in their life, so yes I understand that there is 1% of people who prefer without force feedback lol

I was around in the 80's with a lot of gay friends so back then that was one serious question !