2017 Formula One Bahrain Grand Prix

smasha · Apr 18, 2017

So so drive for Dan,was looking forward to Max's drive until the mechanical fail.

Go team Red Bull.

Rob · Apr 18, 2017

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Chris · Apr 18, 2017

Rob said:
All drivers come out at full speed and approaching drivdr are required to give them space.

Only if they have a legitimate claim to some space. Sainz in this case did not. At the point of turn in, he did not have any part of his front wing alongside Stroll's rear wheels, thus he was not entitled to any space, he didn't actually get near him until Stroll was at the apex of the corner.

See here: https://my.mixtape.moe/klmgnh.mp4

Rob · Apr 18, 2017

Chris said:
Only if they have a legitimate claim to some space. Sainz in this case did not. At the point of turn in, he did not have any part of his front wing alongside Stroll's rear wheels, thus he was not entitled to any space, he didn't actually get near him until Stroll was at the apex of the corner.

See here: https://my.mixtape.moe/klmgnh.mp4

Yea, great video Chris. You prove my point. Stroll saw Sainz and didn't allow Sainz room. Its basic racing 101. I'm not sure where you are from, but when one a driver realizes (or should realize) that their can be in a collision zone where neither driver has the right to the apex (cite me the rule tough guy) then that driver has a duty to allow room. Just like insurance law. There is a concept called "last avoidable chance" here. And Lance certainly admitted he could have avoided it. That's why he's at fault. Cite me the rule that says after the blend line that the non-exiting driver has a right to the space. This whole debacle is a video nightmare, as often happens in F1. They have no common sense. And of course, I blame my countryman, Danny Sullivan.

Chris · Apr 18, 2017

Rob said:
cite me the rule tough guy

I don't think there's any need for that Rob, I raised my point respectfully, I feel you should at least show me the same respect.

Rob said:
Cite me the rule that says after the blend line that the non-exiting driver has a right to the space

It's nothing to do with the blend line, it's just the general rules regarding the legality of overtakes. In recent years the FIA have gone down vaguer and vaguer wordings of the sporting rules as it pertains to overtaking in a bid to allow drivers to make braver moves, which I think can be a good thing, but it will also lead to a lot more collisions.

It used to be in the sporting regulations as little as 2 years ago with:

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

Only once Stroll had reached the apex of the corner, did Sainz have any portion of his car alongside the Williams.

Instead it has been replaced with something that is about as vague as you can get:

27.4 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.

and:

Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for an incident no penalty will be imposed.

That's literally all it has to say regarding the rules of overtaking and defending, however there is still the unwritten rules of racing etiquette which is that you need to have some portion of your car alongside at the point of turn in if you're going to be entitled to any space.

But if I might explain why I feel this one was Sainz's fault:

1) This is the exact moment Stroll applied the brakes. At no point is Sainz alongside him. This is okay, as Stroll has not yet reached the point of turn in.

2) Stroll begins to turn in for the corner, again, Sainz is still about 5 metres behind Stroll. Stroll is on the racing line, it's his corner and he's under zero obligation to leave room.

3) Stroll reaches the Apex and receives a wheel from Sainz in his right sidepod. Look at the angle of Sainz's car, he's not even remotely in position for the subsequent corners, meaning this was just a massive dive bomb.

It was a bold move, I'll give him that, heck I wouldn't be that brave (I suppose that's why I'm here typing about it rather than actually out racing

), but I really agree with the stewards that Sainz was "predominantly to blame" for this incident.

Finally, I know you're a big fan of Carlos Sainz, and understandably so, I'm a fan of him myself, he's a brilliant driver who deserves a top drive next season, but is your support of Carlos the reason for thinking he wasn't to blame for the incident? I mean, Maldonado did literally the exact same thing to Gutierrez in Bahrain 2014, and I don't remember anyone debating who was a fault to this extent haha!

Jan Larsen · Apr 18, 2017

Maldonado is to blame for everything, he dosent count lol.

Sainz is to blame for this one, but only partly. He should have known he was in Strolls blind spot and also coming from a long way behind. A typical dive bomb really. However, Stroll should have known about the possibility of Sainz being there, as should the Williams pitwall. They should've given him an 'inside' call Nascar style. Could have avoided the incident.

MrCharme · Apr 18, 2017

Rob said:
Yea, great video Chris. You prove my point. Stroll saw Sainz and didn't allow Sainz room. Its basic racing 101. I'm not sure where you are from, but when one a driver realizes (or should realize) that their can be in a collision zone where neither driver has the right to the apex (cite me the rule tough guy) then that driver has a duty to allow room. Just like insurance law. There is a concept called "last avoidable chance" here. And Lance certainly admitted he could have avoided it. That's why he's at fault. Cite me the rule that says after the blend line that the non-exiting driver has a right to the space. This whole debacle is a video nightmare, as often happens in F1. They have no common sense. And of course, I blame my countryman, Danny Sullivan.

If Maldonado did the same move and Sainz would be the victim you would be complaining about Pastor and that he should't be allowed to drive a car anymore

larre90 · Apr 18, 2017

Side-Note:
Did you realise, especially thoughout the last few seasons, that most in-battle-crashes were caused by pure stupidness? They didn't crash on intention, they just did stupid things (Well, despite the Mercedes-Battles). Seriously, even the guys in virtual rookie-leagues battle with more responsibility.

That Stroll/Sainz-incident was one of the very ugly. So unnecessary. They maybe took both some lessons in battling each other. But that's the problem they have with young drivers. They are mostly fast in the rookie-classes, but there they only drove at the front of the grid, with very less opportunity to fight. That's simply a lack of experience. If you put them now from a front-running-team in low class to a mid-field-runner in the higher class where you HAVE to fight and to do it WELL, paired with the post-pubertant mind they mostly have... Well, guess what will happen. Goddamn expensive incidents.

Rob · Apr 18, 2017

Chris said:
I don't think there's any need for that Rob, I raised my point respectfully, I feel you should at least show me the same respect.

I agree. You can't often tell when sarcasm is meant.

Chris said:
Only once Stroll had reached the apex of the corner, did Sainz have any portion of his car alongside the Williams.

Of course he did. Otherwise Stroll would not have admitted to knowing he was there. Anyone who was raced knows that you can't pinch a driver you are aware is there, off/out/beyond the Apex. The first rule you cited is irrelevant. That's for actual racing. This is pit exit and here is a specific rule that the FIA cited. When you read that rule, it literary has nothing to do with the situation. Maybe in q vague sense, but I can't find it. So, what they do, like they did in Mexico last year, is just make it up. Same thing in Hungary. Remember last year when the "warned" drivers not to cross the white lines but "X" of times? Then after they did, esp. at the end, the rule was forgotten due to the whole Verspappen debacle. Then they went to Austria and said "okay, we'll just risk your car being destroyed if you go wide". Tough, but fairer than most re: the FIA. At least you know what to do. Nobody has ever had a problem at Bahrain because they have a brain. Nowadays, when you put 12 year olds in cars, this is what you get. That's not to hard a leap of faith is it?

Chris said:
2) Stroll begins to turn in for the corner, again, Sainz is still about 5 metres behind Stroll. Stroll is on the racing line, it's his corner and he's under zero obligation to leave room.

This is where you are wrong. In fact the whole situation was just completely made up. It's Stoll who admitted to seeing Sainz. And no driver is allowed to "push" you off the track if they know (or even suspect, due to the speed in racing) you may be at the apex at the same time. This rule was the old Rosberg rule to which you are referring. He used to run cars off a straight just because there was no rule preventing it (fair enough), but he didn't contact them, just scared them into the grass.

There is a specific section that deals with pit exit. It says nothing of the sort. It in no was infers that the exiting driver has to come to a full stop (or even slow down) because when they designed the track, they thought "hmmm...it's a long enough stretch that these pros can realize when they might meet someone exiting at the apex." And it worked well until you get someone like Lance Stroll in the sport. He's a moving disaster. He's like Max w/o the talent.