Waiting for WRC 23? Get Your Sim Rally Fix Here

TRASGU said:

I find very sad that the state of rally games has become so bad that a game so old as RBR is still in the conversation. RBR is very far from the physics level of ACC, Iracing or even Rfactor 1, the tyre model is as basic as a stone, not even tyre flex, and the cars always have had way too much lift oversteer that can't be tuned out no matter the amount of setup work done to tone it down.

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You can't just judge on how complex or not a physics engine is. You can have the most complex physics engine and it won't mean anything if the final output of vehicle behavior is off. You can find certain attributes during moments of gameplay/driving that can sometimes be more natural in less complex sims, "sim-cades", and sometimes even arcadey games than they are in a more complex sim. Higher complexity certainly does not mean a better final output, especially when higher complexity is thrown in to try and fix/improve odd vehicle behavior traits when that is a backwards approach. The basics of natural vehicle behavior should be resolved and only then should more complexity be added.

Adding 1,000,000 different points of data to a tyre just means that, you add 1,000,000 points of data - which means it'll make THAT game's tyres more dynamic than THAT game's tyres were before - it doesn't mean the final output will be more realistic / natural than a completely different sim that doesn't have that 1,000,000 because that's a completely different physics engine (including tyre model) than the other games'. The other game may only have 10 points of data on it's tyres yet the final result equates to a much more realistic driving / vehicle behavior. Same with adding "physics features" like tyre flex, body flex, or any of the other 1000s of aspects that go into a core physics engine and tyre engine model. Just simply crunching more numbers or modelling more things doesn't necessarily mean a game's physics engine / tyre model will automatically drive better than a game that crunches less or that has less things modelled in it's # crunching.

BTW, I'm not necessarily defending RBR here. I'm just saying that even if it's physics engine isn't as complex as, let's say, RF1's or IR's, that certainly doesn't neccessarilly mean it's overall driving behavior can't be as good or better. BTW, there are areas in RBR's physics engine and physics engine "features" that are not even modelled in many of todays' sims. Again though, that doesn't automatically mean a better final output.

I would push people who have not trialled RBR in a while (at least before NGP7 physics) to do it. Driveability has been improved once again, and while not all cars are equally as good to drive, the whole experience has done another step forward.

pai said:

I would push people who have not trialled RBR in a while (at least before NGP7 physics) to do it. Driveability has been improved once again, and while not all cars are equally as good to drive, the whole experience has done another step forward.

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what car(s) would you recommend?

newbert said:

That certainly looks like it's worth a try! Where do you get the co-driver audio call-outs? And is there any option to display symbols of what's coming up ahead, like in most dedicated rally sims?

Thanks!

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I trust you got the info from another post and the Wiki provided?

IF you're going rallying in AC you'll want the camtool replays for the best stages, here's best cams (by sebmor) : he usually gives car and stage download links too.


Along with the two stages already mentioned I'd also suggest FR_Joux_Verte (different to Joux Plane) but also from original RBR. Doesn't look quite as nice in this older vid but it's great tarmac stage. [There's a grass, rain VAO update on RD - not in vid]

wimdes said:

Check the Assetto Corsa Rally Wiki
There's some interesting news coming next weekend

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Oh C'mon! Don't tease us - Give us a clue!

And are you talking about this weekend (as in tomorrow) or next?

the_last_name_left said:

I trust you got the info from another post and the Wiki provided?

IF you're going rallying in AC you'll want the camtool replays for the best stages, here's best cams (by sebmor) : he usually gives car and stage download links too.

https://www.youtube.com/@sebmor606

Along with the two stages already mentioned I'd also suggest FR_Joux_Verte (different to Joux Plane) but also from original RBR. Doesn't look quite as nice in this older vid but it's great tarmac stage. [There's a grass, rain VAO update on RD - not in vid]

https://assettorallygrb.***********/rallygrb/copia-di-spain-portugal

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Yes - I checked out the Wiki, Thanks. Lots of info to absorb and stuff to install there!

pai said:

I would push people who have not trialled RBR in a while (at least before NGP7 physics) to do it. Driveability has been improved once again, and while not all cars are equally as good to drive, the whole experience has done another step forward.

Click to expand...

got it downloaded and installed, configured my wheel & pedals, it began to move but then my view was too low for my taste. Is there any way to raise the seat height a little?

Spinelli said:

You can't just judge on how complex or not a physics engine is. You can have the most complex physics engine and it won't mean anything if the final output of vehicle behavior is off. You can find certain attributes during moments of gameplay/driving that can sometimes be more natural in less complex sims, "sim-cades", and sometimes even arcadey games than they are in a more complex sim. Higher complexity certainly does not mean a better final output, especially when higher complexity is thrown in to try and fix/improve odd vehicle behavior traits when that is a backwards approach. The basics of natural vehicle behavior should be resolved and only then should more complexity be added.

Adding 1,000,000 different points of data to a tyre just means that, you add 1,000,000 points of data - which means it'll make THAT game's tyres more dynamic than THAT game's tyres were before - it doesn't mean the final output will be more realistic / natural than a completely different sim that doesn't have that 1,000,000 because that's a completely different physics engine (including tyre model) than the other games'. The other game may only have 10 points of data on it's tyres yet the final result equates to a much more realistic driving / vehicle behavior. Same with adding "physics features" like tyre flex, body flex, or any of the other 1000s of aspects that go into a core physics engine and tyre engine model. Just simply crunching more numbers or modelling more things doesn't necessarily mean a game's physics engine / tyre model will automatically drive better than a game that crunches less or that has less things modelled in it's # crunching.

BTW, I'm not necessarily defending RBR here. I'm just saying that even if it's physics engine isn't as complex as, let's say, RF1's or IR's, that certainly doesn't neccessarilly mean it's overall driving behavior can't be as good or better. BTW, there are areas in RBR's physics engine and physics engine "features" that are not even modelled in many of todays' sims. Again though, that doesn't automatically mean a better final output.

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I absolutely agree. And a rally game with 10 minutes stages for sure do not need all the features a road racing game requires. In its time RBR showed grounbreaking physics (if I remember well, created by a single person, a physics guru) and FFB. Its main issue was the bad default setups making the cars absolutely unstable and bouncing everywhere.

There's no need to open the debate about the old titles and their supposed more complex physics and their flaws but, what is obvious nowadays, is that more complexity brings more issues to solve and then less believable physics than less complexed, but perfectly tweaked engines and FFB.

davehenrie said:

got it downloaded and installed, configured my wheel & pedals, it began to move but then my view was too low for my taste. Is there any way to raise the seat height a little?

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I'm on VR and you solve this easily with numpad. There must be an easy way for this on monitor, but I don't know frankly. Will find out.

davehenrie said:

what car(s) would you recommend?

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Lancia Delta Group A is a great starting point! Sweet handling car.

pai said:

I'm on VR and you solve this easily with numpad. There must be an easy way for this on monitor, but I don't know frankly. Will find out.

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I'll look into that, I did find a quick solution, Changed to the Subaru and that had a much higher sear position.
A couple of other notes...The driving position is CENTERED, not where the steering wheel is located.
And. Hand brake. I can assign it to a button but it is easy to lose the pressure on the button while turning. I tried my old G-27 shifter and a joystick on an Xbox controller. Either would be calibrated with 50% brake when either device was in the centered/nuetral position. Makes it hard to keep the car going unless you hold the brake all the time to the zero % spot then releasing it to engage the handbrake. I'm gonna have to figure out a better solution.

davehenrie said:

got it downloaded and installed, configured my wheel & pedals, it began to move but then my view was too low for my taste. Is there any way to raise the seat height a little?

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Take your mouse on game screen once the stage has loaded and do " two right clicks" for FOV and seating positions AND "two left clicks" for pace notes editor....don't forget to press save and then X out.

DRDNA333 said:

Take your mouse on game screen once the stage has loaded and do " two right clicks" for FOV and seating positions AND "two left clicks" for pace notes editor....don't forget to press save and then X out.

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That fixed the sitting location! Thanks. There is so much hidden. I think the car feels reasonable but the tires are lacking feedback. (could be too many years with rF2) But I'm amazed at how much STUFF is in this package. I don't remember hardly any of the game from when I had it on CD, I'll at least be exploring it for a bit...thanks all of you for pointing this out.

Dakar Desert Rally

the_last_name_left said:

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ok but now we'll have a new problem....
they won't believe you this is actually RBR

What happened to gRally? Looked like a proper hardcore sim "on paper". It's been years. I see some nice positives from a now 5 year old review (May 2018):

the_last_name_left said:

I trust you got the info from another post and the Wiki provided?

IF you're going rallying in AC you'll want the camtool replays for the best stages, here's best cams (by sebmor) : he usually gives car and stage download links too.

https://www.youtube.com/@sebmor606

Along with the two stages already mentioned I'd also suggest FR_Joux_Verte (different to Joux Plane) but also from original RBR. Doesn't look quite as nice in this older vid but it's great tarmac stage. [There's a grass, rain VAO update on RD - not in vid]

https://assettorallygrb.***********/rallygrb/copia-di-spain-portugal

Click to expand...

Just tried Joux Verte from that link but it looks quite bad, the road is full of horizontal lines and scenery floating in the air? Different version?

there.. fixed it.

Spinelli said:

You can't just judge on how complex or not a physics engine is. You can have the most complex physics engine and it won't mean anything if the final output of vehicle behavior is off. You can find certain attributes during moments of gameplay/driving that can sometimes be more natural in less complex sims, "sim-cades", and sometimes even arcadey games than they are in a more complex sim. Higher complexity certainly does not mean a better final output, especially when higher complexity is thrown in to try and fix/improve odd vehicle behavior traits when that is a backwards approach. The basics of natural vehicle behavior should be resolved and only then should more complexity be added.

Adding 1,000,000 different points of data to a tyre just means that, you add 1,000,000 points of data - which means it'll make THAT game's tyres more dynamic than THAT game's tyres were before - it doesn't mean the final output will be more realistic / natural than a completely different sim that doesn't have that 1,000,000 because that's a completely different physics engine (including tyre model) than the other games'. The other game may only have 10 points of data on it's tyres yet the final result equates to a much more realistic driving / vehicle behavior. Same with adding "physics features" like tyre flex, body flex, or any of the other 1000s of aspects that go into a core physics engine and tyre engine model. Just simply crunching more numbers or modelling more things doesn't necessarily mean a game's physics engine / tyre model will automatically drive better than a game that crunches less or that has less things modelled in it's # crunching.

BTW, I'm not necessarily defending RBR here. I'm just saying that even if it's physics engine isn't as complex as, let's say, RF1's or IR's, that certainly doesn't neccessarilly mean it's overall driving behavior can't be as good or better. BTW, there are areas in RBR's physics engine and physics engine "features" that are not even modelled in many of todays' sims. Again though, that doesn't automatically mean a better final output.

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I know all that. I have been doing hardcore simracing for almost 25 years, I have tried almost all simulators to date always in an endless search for the most realistic physics. And I know how a real car behave on and over the limit in real life, both in tarmac and in dry and wet dirt.

RBR jumping in to the scene out of nowhere at the time in the rallying game scene was like when grand prix legends or GP500 appeared, it was a complete paradigm change in physics. That said, even live for speed feels more close to the real thing than heavily modded RBR will ever do.

Yes, the mechanical side is very well modeled, that part of the physics was very well understood decades before. The tyre model back then was state of the art in comparison of the simulators of that era, but that quickly changed.

How do I know that?, well, I experienced the era in where tyre models vastly improved. Back then simulators had really basic tyre model physics. That leaded to cars that behaved very snappy when you went slightly over the limit of adhesion of the tyre.

Simracers back then believed intensely in the mith that in real life the competition cars also had massive snap oversteer and were very difficult to drive. Back then people in forums prided themselves of how the people they knew was incapable to even keep on the track the cars when they tried a "true simulator" in their homes, they felt as if they were pseudo real racing drivers.

There was wars in the forums in bhmotorsports (the Alexandria Library of simracing equivalent back then, orders of magnitude bigger than racedepartment is now) when GTR 2 was released. People was hyped for the newest and most hardcore simulator, when people tried the sim there was wars in the forum. People arguing that the game had turned "arcadey" to cater to the casuals to sell more.

What trully happened was that a new tyre model had made the cars closer to reality, and people refused to believe that was true. In the minds of a lot of people back then, the hardcore simulators were subsconciously ranked by driving difficulty, no way an easier physics model can be more realistic. Other people probable felt frustrated because now the simulator physics would no longer be doing the gatekeeping for them nor making them feel special with the home visits.

The new tyre model made the cars behavior quite a lot less snappy, a lot easier to drive specially slightly over the limit. With time the people grew to understand that real life cars aren't that edgy.

I grew up at less than 100m of an autocross track, some of the kids I grew up with raced in real life, first in autocross as it was legal to race from 16 years old, until they reached 18 and could do rallying. I have been helping people when I was a kid, and I have tested cars from the people that I befriended on that track.

RBR comes from the transitional period from the snappy handling era to a more modern tyre model era, the handling is quite a lot more benign than GPL or GP500, but it still behaves a lot more unrealistic than let's say ACC.

It has to do with how the tyre physics interfaces with the ground surfaces over the limit, we could talk all day long about CF-slip angle graphs and other pedantic things. But the thing is that modern physics models are quite a lot better nowadays, proof of that is so many years later of tweaking RBR physics the cars still don't feel even close as good as any modern hardcore simulator has been doing for the last 10 years.

RBR was groundbraking back then, now it is dated, it is only the refusal from accountants to let developers to implement hardcore physics in every other rally game since then that has kept RBR relevant until today.

And that is the reason why I find it very sad that RBR is still relevant in the hardcore simrally scene. In the track racing scene we have been spoiled for years, the hardcore simrally scene kept freezed in time from 2005 and never developed from there.

I find sad to picture an alternative present in were the rally sims have developed to the physics level that we enjoy today in any of the 3 main track racing simulators, I feel that we lost a train back in 2005.

roadyroad said:

Interesting, I haven't tried rally stages in AC but I'm not surprised it feels good on tarmac as it is a versatile engine. I wonder why it is not that good on loose surfaces because I tried mods on oval dirt and I was absolutely surprised how good it felt. Well, I need to try that and some stages look absolutely gorgeous. The only issue is the lack of championship or career (tell me there's a mod for that!).

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Some modding groups are working on cars with gravel physics and it looks like things are going good, the only thing missing now are gravel stages! There's almost nothing
And for career you have assetto evoluzione, idk how it is i didn't have the occasion to try it