ESL R1 | €500k Prize Pool at IEM Katowice for Rennsport-Based Event

One very important thing to mention: opening up to a more casual audience won't make simracing not simracing. When I read people here, it sounds like most are thinking "casuals" necessarily equals physics becoming arcade. This is not the case though.

The key thing is simracing suffers from heavy gatekeeping right now. The entry barrier to iRacing for instance is ridiculous. People showing off their 5k rigs talking about them as if it gave them extra performance (which is false) is also a great turn off for the curious ones who think about getting into simracing. The lack of good plug & play things to race in as well is not great. Not everyone wants or has time to learn and test car setups or deal with UIs that would blend in perfectly in Windows Millenium era.

Richard Wilks said:

They can invest all the money they want, it will end up like all other esports simracing ventures, money down the drain, and if even Gran Turismo has trouble pulling numbers even remotely compared with the biggest esports games, what chances do this lot have....

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The only reason Gran Turismo is failing at that is because they're being bad at it, and Kaz has some very stupid views on it. The first events actually had good success, but they didn't evolve from there, making things worse even in some aspects. The potential is (was ?) there though: I've worked on a GTS online event that made 3 million views during lockdown, but there's so much hostility towards 3rd party organizers from Polyphony Digital that brands have been driven away from that platform.

One key thing that has been mentionned: if you want your esport to succeed, you need people to be able to relate to it. And there's no better way to do that than allowing people to access your platform easily. There are some pros and cons to Rennsport / ESL R1 right now, but they're doing critical things that nobody in this field have tried before, and that already sets them above everyone else. Now it needs good execution, and a proper follow up to get people engaged at game launch.

Blagga said:

Now we hear that they are brushing us all off and giving the equivalent of beta keys to a bunch of insiders and youtubers who will firmly insert their noses into proverbial anal cavities in order to receive free flight vouchers to the race track of their choice and enjoy filet-mignon and backrubs

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I don't know where you "heard" that but you should probaby listen somewhere else. Nothing in this statement is true.

GT-Alex said:

One very important thing to mention: opening up to a more casual audience won't make simracing not simracing. When I read people here, it sounds like most are thinking "casuals" necessarily equals physics becoming arcade. This is not the case though.

The key thing is simracing suffers from heavy gatekeeping right now. The entry barrier to iRacing for instance is ridiculous. People showing off their 5k rigs talking about them as if it gave them extra performance (which is false) is also a great turn off for the curious ones who think about getting into simracing. The lack of good plug & play things to race in as well is not great. Not everyone wants or has time to learn and test car setups or deal with UIs that would blend in perfectly in Windows Millenium era.



The only reason Gran Turismo is failing at that is because they're being bad at it, and Kaz has some very stupid views on it. The first events actually had good success, but they didn't evolve from there, making things worse even in some aspects. The potential is (was ?) there though: I've worked on a GTS online event that made 3 million views during lockdown, but there's so much hostility towards 3rd party organizers from Polyphony Digital that brands have been driven away from that platform.

One key thing that has been mentionned: if you want your esport to succeed, you need people to be able to relate to it. And there's no better way to do that than allowing people to access your platform easily. There are some pros and cons to Rennsport / ESL R1 right now, but they're doing critical things that nobody in this field have tried before, and that already sets them above everyone else. Now it needs good execution, and a proper follow up to get people engaged at game launch.

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They are being bad at it? Well and you think that a completely unknown game, that doesn't even exist on consoles can possibly hope to do better?

During lockdown, there was nothing else to watch. But now real racing is back, so people obviously stopped watching kids playing games. Seems obvious to me. The lockdown period was touted as the "big chance" of simracing, and yet what people saw was awfull standards of driving, weird bugs and glitches and real drivers lambasting the games.

The key thing is simracing suffers from heavy gatekeeping right now. The entry barrier to iRacing for instance is ridiculous. People showing off their 5k rigs talking about them as if it gave them extra performance (which is false) is also a great turn off for the curious ones who think about getting into simracing. The lack of good plug & play things to race in as well is not great. Not everyone wants or has time to learn and test car setups or deal with UIs that would blend in perfectly in Windows Millenium era.

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Well it always did. Do you think a Thrustmaster T2 was cheap in the 90s? Have you seen the size of the books detailing setup options and etc for games like ICR2, GPL or GP2? That's what simracing is and always was.

Now i agree that the hardware side of things is completely out of control with massive shilling and absolute lies everywhere, but simracing, and even any serious racing game in general was never "casual" no. It has a very steep learning curve, and you are already starting handicaped if you are not a fan, or don't understand even real racing. As you should, because ultimately, "sim"racing is exactly that, simulating real racing.

So with that said, i don't even see what is the advantage for simracing to have one game that "kids" play a lot to get good at "esports". The only advantage i could see is to have a big enough pool of players so that you could find and correct exploits and hacks quicker, but as we have seen so far, the current crop of devs seem unable to capitalize on that. It took guys like J Newgarten and M Verstappen to criticize something for them to take notice, because simracing is an eco chamber of "yes men" and fanboys who come rushing to the defence of the most unnaceptable behaviours and bugs. So yes, that would be the only advantage. But even that is an illusion, because i am sure a game of such magnitude will have an even bigger army of apologists, like iRacing.

Richard Wilks said:

They are being bad at it? Well and you think that a completely unknown game, that doesn't even exist on consoles can possibly hope to do better?

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Missing out on the console market is an obstacle, sure, but at the same time, some esport titles have been very successful without that market. It's far from impossible for it to do better, and even if it doesn't, it could still show the way to upcoming titles.

Richard Wilks said:

During lockdown, there was nothing else to watch. But now real racing is back, so people obviously stopped watching kids playing games. Seems obvious to me. The lockdown period was touted as the "big chance" of simracing, and yet what people saw was awfull standards of driving, weird bugs and glitches and real drivers lambasting the games.

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Lockdown was definitely a missed opportunity for most, because few actually have the expertise to run events like that - or refuse to hire those who do. In my case, the event was co-streamed on an esports team channel (Vitality) with two esports players unrelated to simracing involved. The reception there was GREAT, I was honestly surprized at how good it was. Brands and promoters need to explore that route more. Squeezie's GP Explorer event also scored better audiences than most forms of motorsport and that was just last year. The reality is that real motorsport has a LOT of downtime and can be quickly boring to watch if nothing particular happens. Simracing can get rid of these downsides EASILY, but currently choses not to, which is a shame. Get it on the right diffusion channels, with the right format, and you'll have many people electing to watch that over real life racing.

Richard Wilks said:

simracing, and even any serious racing game in general was never "casual" no.

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1) Trackmania has gotten VERY serious. 2) Because simracing was never "casual" (which is debatable, considering how much Gran Turismo sold over the years) doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be.

Richard Wilks said:

It has a very steep learning curve, and you are already starting handicaped if you are not a fan, or don't understand even real racing. As you should, because ultimately, "sim"racing is exactly that, simulating real racing.

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This is just plain wrong. In my experience hosting top level competitions on GT, I can tell you there's a good number of people who don't give a flying **** about cars who are very talented and able to battle with the very best after a very short adaptation period. Rules and ethics can be learned in just a few days, and the competitive mindset is not specific to racing. If someone try a racing game and finds out they like racing, if they have the "git gud" mentality, they'll beat most motorsport fans at it within a month. A LOT of people overestimate their abilities when it comes to driving, be that in reality or in the virtual world, and thus think it's a very hard skill to learn. It's not, the basics are fairly straight forward and can even be acquired through arcade games to some extent. It just requires a bit of dedication and the right mindset. If you're willing to learn, you'll learn.

Richard Wilks said:

So with that said, i don't even see what is the advantage for simracing to have one game that "kids" play a lot to get good at "esports".

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See, "esports" and "casuals" doesn't necessarily means kids. That trope is 20 years outdated. There's a whole generation of gamers who are now adults with daytime jobs, houses and even kids. And today's teenagers will be tomorrow's high budget customers. Now, attracting more people into a hobby has one, extremely obvious advantage: visibility > more people buying stuff, more advertising revenue, more investments. Also, if anything, when you grow bigger, you're very likely to attract extra criticism quicker than fanboism. Both will grow, sure, but have you been on socials lately ? Big companies get a LOT of heat very easily. iRacing is small, and lives on a sunk cost fallacy as people are afraid of their cash investment into the platform suddenly not being worth anything anymore, and that's what generates a lot of blind tolerance to issues.

why in the world would Rennsport use a phishing question to sign up for the beta is beyond me! Really they want your birthday...not a F-ing chance that will or would ever happen by me!

GT-Alex said:

Missing out on the console market is an obstacle, sure, but at the same time, some esport titles have been very successful without that market. It's far from impossible for it to do better, and even if it doesn't, it could still show the way to upcoming titles.



Lockdown was definitely a missed opportunity for most, because few actually have the expertise to run events like that - or refuse to hire those who do. In my case, the event was co-streamed on an esports team channel (Vitality) with two esports players unrelated to simracing involved. The reception there was GREAT, I was honestly surprized at how good it was. Brands and promoters need to explore that route more. Squeezie's GP Explorer event also scored better audiences than most forms of motorsport and that was just last year. The reality is that real motorsport has a LOT of downtime and can be quickly boring to watch if nothing particular happens. Simracing can get rid of these downsides EASILY, but currently choses not to, which is a shame. Get it on the right diffusion channels, with the right format, and you'll have many people electing to watch that over real life racing.



1) Trackmania has gotten VERY serious. 2) Because simracing was never "casual" (which is debatable, considering how much Gran Turismo sold over the years) doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be.



This is just plain wrong. In my experience hosting top level competitions on GT, I can tell you there's a good number of people who don't give a flying **** about cars who are very talented and able to battle with the very best after a very short adaptation period. Rules and ethics can be learned in just a few days, and the competitive mindset is not specific to racing. If someone try a racing game and finds out they like racing, if they have the "git gud" mentality, they'll beat most motorsport fans at it within a month. A LOT of people overestimate their abilities when it comes to driving, be that in reality or in the virtual world, and thus think it's a very hard skill to learn. It's not, the basics are fairly straight forward and can even be acquired through arcade games to some extent. It just requires a bit of dedication and the right mindset. If you're willing to learn, you'll learn.



See, "esports" and "casuals" doesn't necessarily means kids. That trope is 20 years outdated. There's a whole generation of gamers who are now adults with daytime jobs, houses and even kids. And today's teenagers will be tomorrow's high budget customers. Now, attracting more people into a hobby has one, extremely obvious advantage: visibility > more people buying stuff, more advertising revenue, more investments. Also, if anything, when you grow bigger, you're very likely to attract extra criticism quicker than fanboism. Both will grow, sure, but have you been on socials lately ? Big companies get a LOT of heat very easily. iRacing is small, and lives on a sunk cost fallacy as people are afraid of their cash investment into the platform suddenly not being worth anything anymore, and that's what generates a lot of blind tolerance to issues.

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I dont necessarily disagree with anything you said here, except with the crucial point of what you are describing is NOT simracing.

What you are describing is making a racing game something big in eports. That is different from the simracing landscape for the last 25 years. Simracing has been all about simulating the real thing.

Like i said before, sure, everybody can learn the basic mechanics of racing, even in games like mario kart. Controling a car is ultimately a matter of motor coordinationg. But this is not what simracing is all about.

The best analogy i can make is with flight sims. Do people who play them want those to be big in esports? What would that accomplish to those who want to flight an exact replica, controls and all, of an SR-71?

This is the point where you decide if you want to go indeed all sim, or "casual". You mention GT, i love the franchise to bits, and i think "simcade" is a stupid word, but the truth is, GT is not simulating a real series. So in that sense, yes, it is a racing game, yes it is a sim physics wise... But is it an hardcore simulation, setups, practice sessions and all?...no.

This is the fundamental divide in this hobby right now. Some people want the hardcore flightsim. Others want CS&GO. Ultimately, this separation will happen, but even if a racing game becomes "big"in esports, it will never be one of the hardcore sims, of that i am sure, and you reinforce this by mentioning the "gatekeeping" and the "barriers" that equipment or setup knowledge represent.

stefan.fredriksson@gmail. said:

I don't know where you "heard" that but you should probaby listen somewhere else. Nothing in this statement is true.

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Except in 6 months to a year you will realize it's all true.

krzysiek_aleks said:

I expect a great number of people going to Katowice to see the best of the best

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Please, explain to me what is the interest of going to Katowice to watch a ESport event? do they have special screens over there?
I thought that ESport was something happening on the internet that you can watch at home.
Are people going to go there to watch some guys playing a video game on a rig?

People go to esports venues to watch someone play CSGO sitting on a desk, so why not?

randomcallsign said:

People go to esports venues to watch someone play CSGO sitting on a desk, so why not?

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But you can't watch people killing each other irl for sports.
I guess the question remains, why travel to esports simracing events, if you can travel to watch real world racing?

That's a valid point and the big difference compared to other esports. Simracing has a arguably more exciting real world counterpart you can travel and watch instead.

I enjoy travelling and watching the Le Mans 24 for example. I wouldn't travel a single kilometer to watch some 24H Le Mans LAN event tho. That is the beauty of simracing. Drive/watch anywhere from everywhere. The biggest advantage of simracing.

PegaMixel said:

But you can't watch people killing each other irl for sports.
I guess the question remains, why travel to esports simracing events, if you can travel to watch real world racing?

That's a valid point.

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Racing events are not only more expensive than an entry to an event, they are far harder to get to in most cases. To watch it live, there's far less visibility and requires, you guessed it, watch the rest from big screen TVs. In that case why go watch a race live, when I can just skip the middleman called the track, scratch my balls in the sofa and drink some beer?

Why play FIFA when I can go to a stadium and in a stadium I can watch all of the pitch?
Why play minecraft when I have real-life LEGO?
Why this, why that, why whatever else?

It's not either/or. It can be and often is, one and the other. Maybe it's nice to be an event. Maybe it's fun to watch a simracing race.

randomcallsign said:

Why play FIFA when I can go to a stadium and in a stadium I can watch all of the pitch?
Why play minecraft when I have real-life LEGO?
Why this, why that, why whatever else?

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You're missing the point. These are complete different questions.

Travelling to REAL LIFE Football > travelling to FIFA LAN event.

PegaMixel said:

You're missing the point. These are complete different questions.

Travelling to REAL LIFE Football > travelling to FIFA LAN event.

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No, you are missing the point. Those questions are the exact same parallel. Watching a race in the track is tiring, is inconvinent, costly and has far less information than watching on the TV. We go to racing events not just for the race, it's all the event and ambiance. It's people you meet. Things you experience that you cannot at home.
Guess what, that's the exact same reason people go to esports events. It's not just because of popping heads, or watch some trackmania. They go because of the event.

Your preferences are irrelevant for the creation of an esports event, FIFA, simracing or otherwise.
The market isn't for you, but then again they aren't trying to win you over.

randomcallsign said:

No, you are missing the point. Those questions are the exact same parallel. Watching a race in the track is tiring, is inconvinent, costly and has far less information than watching on the TV. We go to racing events not just for the race, it's all the event and ambiance. It's people you meet. Things you experience that you cannot at home.
Guess what, that's the exact same reason people go to esports events. It's not just because of popping heads, or watch some trackmania. They go because of the event.

Your preferences are irrelevant for the creation of an esports event, FIFA, simracing or otherwise.
The market isn't for you, but then again they aren't trying to win you over.

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Have you ever been to a real Motorsport event? Because it sounds like you're not there for the engagement with other people and STRICTLY for motor racing, which is just plain wrong or sad if thats the case for you.

Simracing LAN events feature nothing that real life motorspirt events couldn't.
Arguably even less because you're missing the noise, the smells, the feel, etc.

But i dont wanna argue with you, you made your point.
All i did was counter your (imho) nonsensical CSGO comparisson.

If people could watch wizards and mythtical beast tangle it out in real life, i think LoL LAN events would be pretty empty.

PegaMixel said:

Have you ever been to a real Motorsport event? Because it sounds like you're not there for the engagement with other people and STRICTLY for motor racing, which is just plain wrong or sad if thats the case for you.

Simracing LAN events feature nothing that real life motorspirt events couldn't.
Arguably even less because you're missing the noise, the smells, the feel, etc.

But i dont wanna argue with you, you made your point.
All i did was counter your (imho) nonsensical CSGO comparisson.

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My dude, what have I said there. You're there because of the event, not just the race itself.
That's is exactly the same reason why people go to esports events, including FIFA when they can just pick up a ball to kick on park somewhere, which has the grass smells too.

randomcallsign said:

No, you are missing the point. Those questions are the exact same parallel. Watching a race in the track is tiring, is inconvinent, costly and has far less information than watching on the TV. We go to racing events not just for the race, it's all the event and ambiance. It's people you meet. Things you experience that you cannot at home.
Guess what, that's the exact same reason people go to esports events. It's not just because of popping heads, or watch some trackmania. They go because of the event.

Your preferences are irrelevant for the creation of an esports event, FIFA, simracing or otherwise.
The market isn't for you, but then again they aren't trying to win you over.

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But what is this market then? Are they trying to create a new one? Get the people who were watching GT events?

They are trying to use real life racing series as a basis for this game, yet to me, it's overwhelmingly obvious that these two demographics have antagonic views. Those who want simracing to remain a recreation of reality (and this is the group that dominates even the esports segment of the gente) and those who want simracing to turn fully into esports territory to atract that promised "new market" who might prefer the virtual one.

These two don't mix in my view, because their interests are polar opposites, like i outlined above. The iRacing crowd is not the GT or trackmania crowd.

You can see it here even in this thread.

I dont think their strategy makes much sense (Rennsport).

Cote Dazur said:

Please, explain to me what is the interest of going to Katowice to watch a ESport event? do they have special screens over there?
I thought that ESport was something happening on the internet that you can watch at home.
Are people going to go there to watch some guys playing a video game on a rig?

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Reportedly, 173.000 people came to Katowice for IEM in 2017.

And, as others pointed out, experiencing something in person is usually better than watching it on the TV/screen, cause you are part of the show. You feel the atmosphere, meet people, see your beloved players/athletes in person, maybe even get an autograph or a selfie.

For you and I, going to an esports event and spending hundreds of euros for tickets, hotels, etc. might not be an interesting option, cause you would rather go to real-life racing. But for someone, that is deep in lore of certain title, who plays a lot and is a fan of competitors this might be experience of a lifetime.

Better example maybe. Most of the people I know would love to go for some high profile concert. Lady Gaga, BTS, Led Zeppelin - whatever you like. Big concert in a stadium or on an airfield, that costs an arm and a leg to get in. I meanwhile spend some bucks just to go to Brussels to hear one of my favorite singers of all time. She is not well known outside of France, but for me THIS was an experience of a lifetime.

People are different. Some will prefer watching a football game at the stadium, because they want to sing songs with other fans, celebrate with them, give middle finger to the referee. Others will just watch it on TV, cause they will get better view of action and it's cheaper.

ESL with Rennsport are trying to get simracing into mainstream their own way. By trying to replicate LoL, WoW, Starcraft, CS:GO and others model. Make people watch. Make people interested. Make people INVESTED in their league, so they will come to events, they will buy the game. And that will bring profit, that will attract sponsors.

It's an interesting method. Some tried it in a way, but still most competitions like this were focused on your typical simracing Joe. The guy, that drives a lot, takes part in some leagues/special events, maybe knows who Max Benecke is and that's why they will watch. Post pandemic world showed us, that "normal" motorsport fan doesn't care. Yeah, sure, they will watch some simracing. If there is some real life driver. And when there isn't any real racing on the screen.

Just look at the stats FaZe Clan have in social media. Millions of people follow them. And now those millions will be able to learn who the hell Mitchell deJong is and that you can drive racecars on the computer. Some of them will simply not care. Some of them will watch the events. Some of them will become fans of FaZe drivers. Some of them will however become fans of competitive simracing as a whole.

Another example - F1 Esports. Simply because F1 teams took this seriously and promoted it together with their drivers, there is now a fanbase for the series. Jarno Opmeer has more followers than many junior drivers in F2. It's insane.

But it also shows potential. If you try to get casuals, not by some pseudo GenZ posturing, but by actual promotion, showing your drivers to bigger audiences, there will be a percent that will come again. And again. And again. And will become fans. Will buy t-shirts, etc.

To sum it up: esport events are popular, are bringing massive numbers of people, just like any sport. And ESL R1 is the biggest attempt at getting "normal people" into competitive simracing. Not as participants, but as fans.

Richard Wilks said:

But what is this market then? Are they trying to create a new one? Get the people who were watching GT events?

They are trying to use real life racing series as a basis for this game, yet to me, it's overwhelmingly obvious that these two demographics have antagonic views. Those who want simracing to remain a recreation of reality (and this is the group that dominates even the esports segment of the gente) and those who want simracing to turn fully into esports territory to atract that promised "new market" who might prefer the virtual one.

These two don't mix in my view, because their interests are polar opposites, like i outlined above. The iRacing crowd is not the GT or trackmania crowd.

You can see it here even in this thread.

I dont think their strategy makes much sense (Rennsport).

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Yes they are trying. I'm old enough to remember they did exact the same thing in the west with what we consider to be normal esports. This while in Korea stuff like starcraft was already getting professionalised.
The reactions were much the same as we read in RD. If the market is large enough, that remains to be seen. But that is not the criticism I am reading.

randomcallsign said:

That's is exactly the same reason why people go to esports events, including FIFA

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Not sure why you're so fixed on FIFA LAN Events. Their on-site viewership is pathetic compared to other esports whilst their casual clientel is multiple times the size.

But again, you made your point.
All i wanted to say is that there a valid points why it's not "logical" for there to be a simracing LAN Event that mimics something well received irl.

PegaMixel said:

Not sure why you're so fixed on FIFA LAN Events. Their on-site viewership is pathetic compared to other esports whilst their casual clientel is multiple times the size.

But again, you made your point.
All i wanted to say is that there a valid points why it's not "logical" for there to be a simracing LAN Event that mimics something well received irl.

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It's not logical to go an event thousands of km away to barely follow a race because the visibility is poor, the information scarce. Its not about being logical, it's about doing what YOU LIKE.

Some people think going to tracks is stupid. You are in effect doing the exact same thing.