Automobilista 2 Updated to Version 1.3.5.2

Bazooka_Joe · Apr 20, 2022

R.Man said:
1. AC had a different maintenance strategy. The devs first worked hard on the most most important features of a racing sim, the physic and the handling until it became convincing not even good but wihout any glaring issues like AMS2 had. Not perfect but enough to allow people enjoy the sim. After all of that only started to focus on adding more new content.

Not quite true - it took Kunos a while to launch that newer tyre models and constant fiddling with physics and even now the curbs are still a no-go area on many tracks due to single point contact model that was fixed in ACC, but not even at launch.
It's not identical to AMS2 development, true, given that Reiza have to deal with quirks of an inherited engine rather than in-house one, but you can't deny the similarities which is what I was originally referring to. And it's easy to compare it now to a well established title after its lifecycle that was helped by the modders in a significant way. See next point.

R.Man said:
2. Ac moddability is very special, it is moddable in a way the community can improve most of the aspect of it. In other world Kunos let the community finish many jobs in their place. And the community is in its biggest part OK with that. Yes! OK with it not being perfect ! AC is not only a racing simulator it's also a "simulator tuning" experience. AC is imperfect but allow people to customize it until they get their "own" custom version of it. So it's not only about driving enjoyment , but also about being proud of building something. AC quirkiness is an ingredient of people love for it.

I'm not denying AC's moddability superiority and not even questioning it. AMS2 never meant to be super moddable which was clear at the very beginnings. Yet still they have implemented FFB and livery overrides and AI customisation methods, including some very detailed parameters not seen in AC. Cars can be added to the roster too, so actually they are overdelivering on their original promises.

R.Man said:
3. AC had a generous price scheme since the beginning so they managed to get more sale / more players very quickly. Even ACC success is on part due to the same pricing strategy.

With the volumes of sales they had they clearly could have afford it. Even so, the AMS2 was available in the Humble Bundle recently and unless you want literally everything the Season Pass it's at the R3E full content unlock levels, so while not dirt cheap - it's priced in the middle of the market. Not to mention that users with no DLC can join online lobbies using cars/tracks they don't own.

My point was that the crude AC experience with no mods is... well... quite crude which we've already forgot how bad things used to be. It was rescued by modders who gave it day/night cycle, better weather and a launcher that isn't mediocre as the original Kunos' launcher is and became a whole different experience. So something we used to be ok with AC is now a deal breaker in AMS2.

I'm not saying AMS2 is perfect. It isn't and it's far from it. But it's heading in the right direction update after update. And I'm still puzzled why it's so quickly dismissed without giving it the chance it deserves.

Peter Kerényi · Apr 20, 2022

Bazooka_Joe said:
My point was that the crude AC experience with no mods is... well... quite crude which we've already forgot how bad things used to be. It was rescued by modders who gave it day/night cycle, better weather and a launcher that isn't mediocre as the original Kunos' launcher is and became a whole different experience. So something we used to be ok with AC is now a deal breaker in AMS2.

Let me add just this. AC experience with no CSP/Sol is outdated, today. When AC came out... wow the memories and hype... it was a league above almost everything at the time from my perspective. Laser scanned tracks in an affordable sim, natural feeling handling, best sim graphics at the time, street cars (we only had like a Camaro in AMS1 or Game Stock Car 2013/Extreme at the time), f****ing Ferrari license, a bit later on first laserscanned Nordschleife! All for a very reasonble price incl. DLC later on. It's only natural it gained a huge following, especially as it stole the title of THE modding platform from rF1 (and rF2) and still holds it 8 or so years later.

Meanwhile AMS2 launched in a very different market. I really root for Reiza though to continue the improvements and turn the general consensus around. That would mean we would get a really top notch sim.

DC WOLF · Apr 20, 2022

TurboT said:
Very strange indeed, many people are still baised by the engine or by what they've heared from other people that are biased by the engine I think. Because when you've driven the latest version then it's imo impossible to say that it's not great. Imo AMS2 is miles ahead the competion at this moment, especially in combination with VR and DD dailed in. The driving experience is just on an another level.

you are right.
Many people are biased.
So you are

MadDriver11 · Apr 20, 2022

R.Man said:
From this was born an intensive AMS2 bashing which lasted months and months. Along with the handling issues and the expensive pricing , this is imho the main reason of the lack of growth. About the engine, I think if AMS2 was like the version 1.3 since the beginning no one would care about which engine is used by it.

It's the other way around: the bashing started even before full release and was often based on prejudice, even when "bashers" were proven wrong by their communities, they never conceded prejudice was a factor.
Reiza was always clear that it would take at least until end of 2022 to have the sim where they wanted it to be, but that didn't stopped haters anyway.
The truth is AC/ACC supporters felt like their duty was to bash any attempt to "endanger" their favorite sim and really it's difficult to understand why liking something means you need to go and take a s....t on something else.
There was no "in between" spot between either being a called a fanboy or criticizing by prejudice Madness Engine as doomed. And now those people even think they were instrumental to improving AMS2 with their criticism. How ridiculous.

MadDriver11 · Apr 20, 2022

R.Man said:
AMS2 is expensive if you need standard sim racing experience like European tracks and cars, US content ,etc .

It really depends on how deep you go in the comparison: ACC sold Imola for pretty much 6 euros and with that only one layout will come.
When you buy Monza in AMS2 for instance (Imola is already included in the base game) you get many even very different layouts (2021, 1993, 1970s etc) with all the trackside objects updated to go with it. So price obviously cannot be the same.
If someone is used to play AC because of the free ripped or license "free" content than definitely there will never be a competition between the two propositions, but if you look at what is the cost of official content tracks in RR, iracing, RF2, ACC, AC and AMS2 vs the actual amount of content in the DLC things look different. If you just read the cost of the DLC without understanding what comes with it, then you will just be misled by the cost.

R.Man · Apr 20, 2022

Bazooka_Joe said:
Not quite true - it took Kunos a while to launch that newer tyre models and constant fiddling with physics and even now the curbs are still a no-go area on many tracks due to single point contact model that was fixed in ACC, but not even at launch.

Yes but we should take few things into account. AC was released in 2014 , the community was more patient for many reasons . For example it was the only really accessible sim available at the moment. There was many issues but people had to deal with them or accepted them. Basic market law when competition is low... Also the modding support helped AC a lot, people could enjoy the sim outside the scope of racing. For example you mention the curb issues but most of AC freeroam guys don't even know about it, most of AC rally guys don't care about it, most of AC photography guys don't care about it, etc.

In the other hand, AMS2 was released in 2020 , people was no longer so patient and tolerant. The bar and expectations was much higher. The competition was fierce, many sim became more accessible , improved their content, handling, pricing a lot. That's why taking AC or even ACC as a reference is almost irrelevant. That may be the reason why many people seem to not understand why AC was and is still very popular (more than ever?) despite all the quirknesses.

MadDriver11 said:
It's the other way around: the bashing started even before full release and was often based on prejudice, even when "bashers" were proven wrong by their communities, they never conceded prejudice was a factor.
Reiza was always clear that it would take at least until end of 2022 to have the sim where they wanted it to be, but that didn't stopped haters anyway.
The truth is AC/ACC supporters felt like their duty was to bash any attempt to "endanger" their favorite sim and really it's difficult to understand why liking something means you need to go and take a s....t on something else.

If you make some researches on forums etc, AMS2 users are often the ones that bring AC and ACC in the discussion. Also one reason why the bashing starterd is the fact that any Youtuber that criticised AMS2 got the fanboys attacking them fiercely...unfortunately those influencers had the big sim racing community behind them so from there came a bigger wave of dashing. In 2022 ironically those same youtubers are the ones that are making it shine again once the sim improved. The same fanboys are praising them.

I don't think AC/ACC is endangered by AMS2. It may be AMS2 fans autosuggestion as tt a time AMS2 fans became so optimistic that they claimed that AMS2 GT3/GT4 could compete with the ones in ACC. If any , the ones that may be endangered by AMS2 are RRRE and RF2 and AMS1 and AMS2 itself.

MadDriver11 said:
It really depends on how deep you go in the comparison: ACC sold Imola for pretty much 6 euros and with that only one layout will come.
When you buy Monza in AMS2 for instance (Imola is already included in the base game) you get many even very different layouts (2021, 1993, 1970s etc) with all the trackside objects updated to go with it. So price obviously cannot be the same.

Historic layouts have people interested on them especially in the AMS2 community but I don't think the need is so big if we look at the sim racing community in general. So they are not necessary or not enough to raise the DLC prices. People in general need the most updated tracks with the respect to the real life motorsport events. Also for example RFactor 2 has lot of free vanilla or mod historic tracks that could be a substitution to the ones in AMS2. Plus the very advanced physic and handling of RF2 it's a very nice experience. My RF2 installation only has historic tracks and cars so i'm pretty sure i know what is the potential. If ripping is your problem AC in the otherside has lot of free non ripped, non stolen, historic tracks and cars which are actively updated by their creators and some of them are way more detailed that the ones in AMS2 DLC.
About DLC price vs content AMs2 DLC can only compete with RF2 in this area. RF2 is the only sim having DLC content as expensive as AMS2. For RRRE you pay 60 $ to have all the DLC with the pro pack , for 40 $ you have AC with all the DLC , for ACC you pay 106$ to get all the DLC....

for AMS2 see the image below at least it's confusing

Bazooka_Joe said:
Not quite true - it took Kunos a while to launch that newer tyre models and constant fiddling with physics and even now the curbs are still a no-go area on many tracks due to single point contact model that was fixed in ACC, but not even at launch.
It's not identical to AMS2 development, true, given that Reiza have to deal with quirks of an inherited engine rather than in-house one, but you can't deny the similarities which is what I was originally referring to. And it's easy to compare it now to a well established title after its lifecycle that was helped by the modders in a significant way. See next point.

Yes but we should take few things into account. AC was released in 2014 , the community was more patient for many reasons . For example it was the only really accessible sim available at the moment. There was many issues but people had to deal with them or accepted them. Basic market law when competition is low... Also the modding support helped AC a lot, people could enjoy the sim outside the scope of racing. For example you mention the curb issues but most of AC freeroam guys don't even know about it, most of AC rally guys don't care about it, most of AC photography guys don't care about it, etc.

In the other hand, AMS2 was released in 2020 , people was no longer so patient and tolerant. The bar and expectations was much higher. The competition was fierce, many sim became more accessible , improved their content, handling, pricing a lot. That's why taking AC or even ACC as a reference is almost irrelevant. That may be the reason why many people seem to not understand why AC was and is still very popular (more than ever?) despite all the quirknesses.

MadDriver11 said:
The truth is AC/ACC supporters felt like their duty was to bash any attempt to "endanger" their favorite sim and really it's difficult to understand why liking something means you need to go and take a s....t on something else.

If you make some researches on forums etc, AMS2 users are often the ones that bring AC and ACC in the discussion. Also one reason why the bashing starterd is the fact that any Youtuber that criticised AMS2 got the fanboys attacking them fiercely...unfortunately those influencers had the big sim racing community behind them so from there came a bigger wave of dashing. In 2022 ironically those same youtubers are the ones that are making it shine again once the sim improved. The same fanboys are praising them.

I don't think AC/ACC is endangered by AMS2. It may be AMS2 fans autosuggestion as tt a time AMS2 fans became so optimistic that they claimed that AMS2 GT3/GT4 could compete with the ones in ACC. If any , the ones that may be endangered by AMS2 are RRRE and RF2 and AMS1 and AMS2 itself.

MadDriver11 said:
It really depends on how deep you go in the comparison: ACC sold Imola for pretty much 6 euros and with that only one layout will come.
When you buy Monza in AMS2 for instance (Imola is already included in the base game) you get many even very different layouts (2021, 1993, 1970s etc) with all the trackside objects updated to go with it. So price obviously cannot be the same.
If someone is used to play AC because of the free ripped or license "free" content than definitely there will never be a competition between the two propositions, but if you look at what is the cost of official content tracks in RR, iracing, RF2, ACC, AC and AMS2 vs the actual amount of content in the DLC things look different. If you just read the cost of the DLC without understanding what comes with it, then you will just be misled by the cost.

Historic layouts have people interested on them especially in the AMS2 community but I don't think the need is so big if we look at the sim racing community in general. So they are not necessary or not enough to raise the DLC prices. People in general need the most updated tracks with the respect to the real life motorsport events. Also for example RFactor 2 has lot of free vanilla or mod historic tracks that could be a substitution to the ones in AMS2. Plus the very advanced physic and handling of RF2 it's a very nice experience for vintage racing. My RF2 installation only has historic tracks and cars so i'm pretty sure i know what is the potential. If ripping is your problem AC in the otherside has lot of free non ripped, non stolen, historic tracks and cars which are actively updated by their creators and some of them are way more detailed that the ones in AMS2 DLC.
About DLC price vs content, AMs2 DLC can only compete with RF2 in this area. RF2 is the only sim having DLC content as expensive as AMS2. For RRRE you pay 60 $ to have all the DLC (UE,US,etc) with the pro pack , for 40 $ you have AC with all the DLC (UE,US,etc) , for ACC you pay 106$ to get all the DLC (UE,UK,world,etc)....

for AMS2 see the image below

MadDriver11 · Apr 20, 2022

R.Man said:
If you make some researches on forums etc, AMS2 users are often the ones that bring AC and ACC in the discussion. Also one reason why the bashing starterd is the fact that any Youtuber that criticised AMS2 got the fanboys attacking them fiercely...unfortunately those influencers had the big sim racing community behind them so from there came a bigger wave of dashing. In 2022 ironically those same youtubers are the ones that are making it shine again once the sim improved. The same fanboys are praising them.

I don't think AC/ACC is endangered by AMS2. It may be AMS2 fans autosuggestion as tt a time AMS2 fans became so optimistic that they claimed that AMS2 GT3/GT4 could compete with the ones in ACC. If any , the ones that may be endangered by AMS2 are RRRE and RF2 and AMS1 and AMS2 itself.

I was in many of those streams and it was the other way around. You could not say a word that wasn't against AMS2 without being attacked rudely in any of them. I could make names of streamers who said in the stream that they did like AMS2 and see potential even though it was buggy and their own chat went absolutely nuts and revolted: Dan Suzuki was one of them, but not the only one.
I don't think either that AMS2 is in the same place as ACC (because ACC has very little variety) or AC (because AMS2 is on a higher level in all respects), but apparently their fans seem to feel the urgent need to come in every post here, on FB and on any possible social to say how superior AC was and how they disliked AMS2 and refunded it x many months before.
Those same fans just keep accusing everyone else of being fanboys as soon as they do not align with their views when they are the real aggressive fanboys literally chasing every occasion.

MadDriver11 · Apr 20, 2022

R.Man said:
Historic layouts have people interested on them especially in the AMS2 community but I don't think the need is so big if we look at the sim racing community in general. So they are not necessary or not enough to raise the DLC prices. People in general need the most updated tracks with the respect to the real life motorsport events. Also for example RFactor 2 has lot of free vanilla or mod historic tracks that could be a substitution to the ones in AMS2. Plus the very advanced physic and handling of RF2 it's a very nice experience for vintage racing. My RF2 installation only has historic tracks and cars so i'm pretty sure i know what is the potential. If ripping is your problem AC in the otherside has lot of free non ripped, non stolen, historic tracks and cars which are actively updated by their creators and some of them are way more detailed that the ones in AMS2 DLC.
About DLC price vs content, AMs2 DLC can only compete with RF2 in this area. RF2 is the only sim having DLC content as expensive as AMS2. For RRRE you pay 60 $ to have all the DLC (UE,US,etc) with the pro pack , for 40 $ you have AC with all the DLC (UE,US,etc) , for ACC you pay 106$ to get all the DLC (UE,UK,world,etc)....

It's amazing how people think their own bubble is just the right one and everyone else must be wrong.
First of all, there are a lot of people who actually want previous versions of Spa, Monza, Hockenheim before they were butchered by FIA. That's without even talking about vintage stuff.
Secondly, AMS2 season pass includes far more content than the ones for ACC. There are already 12 track "names" today in it and as a minimum there are another 3 outstanding with the USA Racin Part3 for a total of 15. The season pass can be had for $67 in one of the often recurring sales. Even if you bought it at $99 on day one, that is still $6 for a track "name", otherwise it's already $4 when you count Nords and at least some of the significant layout.
Some of those tracks are like Nurburgring which is including Nordschleife which can hardly be considered a "layout" of Nurburgring GP.
That is considering the cars included in the DLCs as free content as well as the several historical or current "national" layouts. With that probably you are looking at $2 or $3 per "relevant" layout or car. I don't know a sim that will give you a car or a track for $3 that is not 10 years old already.
But for some reason there are people who keep just broadcasting things their way bashing a sim even when there is nothing to bash and all to be praised, for reasons that are really beyond any common sense.

R.Man · Apr 21, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
That is considering the cars included in the DLCs as free content as well as the several historical or current "national" layouts. With that probably you are looking at $2 or $3 per "relevant" layout or car. I don't know a sim that will give you a car or a track for $3 that is not 10 years old already.

Sorry to say but it seems that 2$ to 3$ is the ideal single car or track price that are easy for the players to pay. This tendecy was mainly established by AC since 2014 and is now mantained accross all the sims . If they have the basic features done right like physic and handling, all the sims that adopted this pricing seem have good player base growth over the past. Inversely the one that didn't do got some struggle. After all it's a market so things get average price. You cannot sell a g29 wheel for 1000$. A pratical example, like in food and beverage market, the average cost of your typical cup of hot black coffee in the U.S., is $2.70.

For example in Raceroom you buy the european pack for 31$ with
25 tracks and 65 layouts, that's the price of 4 european track in AMS2.
That's 1.24$ per track.
Raceroom was among those who didn't do the "2$ to 3$" but they changed their pricing few years ago to increase sales.

The latest ACC DLC containing 5 licenced cars cost 10.99 dollars. That's 2.19 $ per car
Many of ACC DLC are ranked in steam top ten most sold products few hours after release.

As I said RF2 may be the one that is as expensive as AMS2 but in some pack it's even cheaper.
Also some of the AMS2 paid tracks are free in RF2 base content. That's an advantage.
Anyway due to the pricing, it has slow user count growth. Same cause same effect may be.
RF2 got a slight improvement as they totally restructured their DLC packs and prices few years ago.

For AC i took a 2017 steam store snapshot to illustrate the pricing when the sim was still supported by the devs to make a fair comparison.
In 2022 AC has a paid mod market that adopted the "2$ to 3$" also. The content are created from scratch not ripped or stolen. Most of people refuse to buy ripped content. Most of the cars cost between 2$ to 3$ and people buy them without hesitation. The market is so dynamic that some of the mod team are starting to release LICENCED cars....Personnally , I buy at least 10$ worth mods per month and i'm ready to pay more if we get more interesting stuffs.

So now it's up to you to define if AMS2 is really expensive or not. Anyway after all the improvement until v1.3 that didn't really increase the sim popularity, may be the real key of AMS2 growth is there? The 2$-3$ DLC thing?

Kenny Paton · Apr 21, 2022

Oops, I thought I'd stumbled into an accountancy class with a extra dollop of my sims better than yours topped off with and it's cheaper too.

Bazooka_Joe · Apr 21, 2022

R.Man said:
For example in Raceroom you buy the european pack for 31$ with
25 tracks and 65 layouts, that's the price of 4 european track in AMS2.

So you're comparing single tracks from AMS2 to a R3E bundle... It has to be pointed out that AMS2 also features bundles or if we're cherry picking - let's take a look at the USA Race Packs? 5 cars and 3 tracks for $19. It falls within your $2-3 per car/track bracket but you're happy to skip it as it doesn't fit your narration.
Not to mention the fact that you don't have to own DLC tracks to race them in multiplayer. You can join lobbies without having to purchase the DLC. So can we consider them free?

R.Man said:
For example you mention the curb issues but most of AC freeroam guys don't even know about it, most of AC rally guys don't care about it, most of AC photography guys don't care about it, etc.

With this logic we can happily skip AI issues as those are not experienced by hotlappers. You can't just dismiss a fundamental flaw with AC physics because it doesn't affect a group of players...

I was puzzled why it doesn't deserve people's chance, thinking there's something really fundamentally wrong with it, but you've proven to me that it's just because of ignorance. Quite simple and understandable.

I'm done with this conversation. By cherrypicking and blatantly ignoring facts that are not matching your narration you've lost all credibility for me. I might as well get involved in politics discussion with randoms as it's the same quality.

Peace and all the best in your simracing endeavours.

Wreckoning · Apr 21, 2022

I’ve got all but the latest ACC dlc, same with Raceroom and pretty much all pf the RF2 dlc and everything for AMS2. If I look at the value based on time played ACC would come out bottom of the list by a significant amount.

Even If you buy bundles because it’t slightly cheaper quite often some of the content doesn’t really interest you so do you factor in the cost/value on that?

Compared with the cost of a bunch of the other stuff around sim racing (unless you’re talking about iRacing) relatively speaking the difference in price of DLC isn’t going to be that significant for alot of people.

DC WOLF · Apr 21, 2022

its nice how this comparations are calculated.
you compare apples with oranges. nitpicking!
When you leave out the DLC's you get 40 tracks (not layouts) and more than 120 cars in the base package. So the current 36$ or on sale lowest was about 14$ should be worth it.
This "AMS2 is expensive" lamenting is BS.
I bought ACC in beta. What did i get? 2 tracks and some cars. And all was undrivable for months

Drive it or leave it, but stop whining and nitpicking.
e.g.
Go out for dinner with your girl friend and 100.- are gone.
I don't think you lament another 2 years after that " omg, i spent 100$ for that evening ........"
or
Say "I would never buy a Ferrari, i get 5 Porsches for it"
Both are just fast cars. But i'd prefer the Ferrari

MadDriver11 · Apr 21, 2022

R.Man said:
Sorry to say but it seems that 2$ to 3$ is the ideal single car or track price that are easy for the players to pay. This tendecy was mainly established by AC since 2014 and is now mantained accross all the sims . If they have the basic features done right like physic and handling, all the sims that adopted this pricing seem have good player base growth over the past. Inversely the one that didn't do got some struggle. After all it's a market so things get average price. You cannot sell a g29 wheel for 1000$. A pratical example, like in food and beverage market, the average cost of your typical cup of hot black coffee in the U.S., is $2.70.

For example in Raceroom you buy the european pack for 31$ with
25 tracks and 65 layouts, that's the price of 4 european track in AMS2.
That's 1.24$ per track.
Raceroom was among those who didn't do the "2$ to 3$" but they changed their pricing few years ago to increase sales.

View attachment 560454

The latest ACC DLC containing 5 licenced cars cost 10.99 dollars. That's 2.19 $ per car
Many of ACC DLC are ranked in steam top ten most sold products few hours after release.

View attachment 560455

As I said RF2 may be the one that is as expensive as AMS2 but in some pack it's even cheaper.
Also some of the AMS2 paid tracks are free in RF2 base content. That's an advantage.
Anyway due to the pricing, it has slow user count growth. Same cause same effect may be.
RF2 got a slight improvement as they totally restructured their DLC packs and prices few years ago.
View attachment 560458

For AC i took a 2017 steam store snapshot to illustrate the pricing when the sim was still supported by the devs to make a fair comparison.
In 2022 AC has a paid mod market that adopted the "2$ to 3$" also. The content are created from scratch not ripped or stolen. Most of people refuse to buy ripped content. Most of the cars cost between 2$ to 3$ and people buy them without hesitation. The market is so dynamic that some of the mod team are starting to release LICENCED cars....Personnally , I buy at least 10$ worth mods per month and i'm ready to pay more if we get more interesting stuffs.

View attachment 560468

So now it's up to you to define if AMS2 is really expensive or not. Anyway after all the improvement until v1.3 that didn't really increase the sim popularity, may be the real key of AMS2 growth is there? The 2$-3$ DLC thing?

Like others say.. You compare bundle with bundle for RR which carries 10 years old versions of tracks and cars as if they were of the same value. In ten 10 years probably AMS2 will be even cheaper.
Then when it comes to ACC you pick bundles maybe even discounted against single content and still I would also highlight most of the cars that come in the ACC DLCs are barely a physics adjustment of already existing cars. Hardly a new content except for the last DLC. And since it doesn't fit the narrative, different layouts won't count.
There is really no added value to discuss further when people are just biased and want to give a picture bent to their views.
This is the type of apartheid that AMS2 has been facing since inception for some reason shown right here.

R.Man · Apr 21, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
This is the type of apartheid that AMS2 has been facing since inception for some reason shown right here.

Yes i will stop commenting also due to Godwin's law. I may have touched some sensitive points and decode some denial here and there...when you use discourse analysis you know when people are deliberatley denying something true.

Anyway this kind of denial is not new and usually in an another level with AMS2...A random example, I remember when GM said that AMS2 don't have lift of oversteer and an AMS2 fan tried to prove the inverse on Youtube by deliberately sliding the car. He was vigourously supported by the others...The same GM is now praising AMS2 at daily basis, that means that he was not a "hater" like AMS2 fans call him. He just mostly needed some improvements. There is a big difference...

Playing the victim will not solve AMS2 slow growth issue, accepting that few (or lot?) of things can be improved / changed will do. If you look closely , most of the changes that dramatically improved AMS2 are recommendation from the people that was outside the die hard fans. They use to call those people "haters" etc. In reality without those "haters" AMS2 would not be as refined as today.

To prove it below are some elements that can be traced chronogically in AMS2 discussions around the web forums, youtube ,etc.

- AMS2 fans said that the bouncy cars in AMS2 were normal

- If they could they would say that AMS2 was already perfect few months after release.
- They also said the previous FFB was good and didn't need improvement
- They also said that AMS2 don't need modern F1. Look what happens now with the F1 2022 release, it's a very good exposure and showcase for AMS2
- Now they said that AMS2 is not expensive...

MadDriver11 · Apr 22, 2022

R.Man said:
Yes i will stop commenting also due to Godwin's law. I may have touched some sensitive points and decode some denial here and there...you know when people are deliberatley denying something true. A random example, I remember when GM said that AMS2 don't have lift of oversteer and a AMS2 fan tried to prove the inverse on Youtube by deliberately sliding the car...this kind of denial is not new...playing the victim will not solve AMS2 slow growth issue, accepting that few (or lot?) of things can be improved / changed will do.

Yeah that is exactly an example of how toxic a streamer's audience could be in the day and how when it was demonstrated to him that cars could be dialed the way he wanted with just a few minutes of setup fiddling and that it was nothing related to mAdNEsS eNGinE liMItAtioNS his chat and him went nuts and called fanboys and silenced anyone who dared to say the sim still could have been dialed and enjoyed while differential issues were corrected, even though some extreme diff settings were needed. That happened even having anyway said that the whole simracing world was aware at that time of issues with diffs starting for Reiza that was looking for the cause and no one denied it.
GM and his toxic audience were trying to demonstrate that setting up a car was a gimmick and baseline would be all that is necessary to drive a car to satisfaction and adjusting setups is equivalent to cheating.
Now the same people that have been total je...s back then think their being as.....s has somehow contributed to improving the sim, while in reality it was the people who actually demonstrated GM wrong in the stream who ended up being the real contributors to finding what the problem was and re-calibrating setups once the fix was found were insulted and brought to silence by the toxic audience. Their names are now well known and can easily be identified in Reiza's forum.
It's the typical arrogance of certain self-entitled ignorant people.

Wreckoning · Apr 22, 2022

GM like a lot of youtubers is not a great example for making your case on anything. He veers wildly from being generally OK to just loving the sound of his own voice on a whole range of subjects.

Taking the opposite side to somethings fanbase is a great way to generate views and interactions for a streamer. And if you can prod what is often a small minority of that fan base who are diehard fans into coming back for more the better it will be for the content creator.

He also doesn’t seem to like ACC very much so maybe I should tune in a bit more often so I can nod along and agree with him.

Like any developer I expect Reiza take on a whole range of views and feedback, work through the issues and then see what is achievable for each release. If they only ever listened to a vocal minority nothing would ever move forward. I think the current AMS2 FFB is great but I also see people complaining about it, who’s opinion counts more?

They have had some missteps but in general they move the sim forward. If thats not good enough or you’re just not interested why waste time arguing about it with people who to them see it going in the right direction. I bought ACC and most of the DLC, but I don’t feel that entitles me to comment on every ACC article with why I don’t like ACC.

R.Man · Apr 23, 2022

Wreckoning said:
GM like a lot of youtubers is not a great example for making your case on anything. He veers wildly from being generally OK to just loving the sound of his own voice on a whole range of subjects.

Taking the opposite side to somethings fanbase is a great way to generate views and interactions for a streamer. And if you can prod what is often a small minority of that fan base who are diehard fans into coming back for more the better it will be for the content creator.

He also doesn’t seem to like ACC very much so maybe I should tune in a bit more often so I can nod along and agree with him.

Like any developer I expect Reiza take on a whole range of views and feedback, work through the issues and then see what is achievable for each release. If they only ever listened to a vocal minority nothing would ever move forward. I think the current AMS2 FFB is great but I also see people complaining about it, who’s opinion counts more?

They have had some missteps but in general they move the sim forward. If thats not good enough or you’re just not interested why waste time arguing about it with people who to them see it going in the right direction. I bought ACC and most of the DLC, but I don’t feel that entitles me to comment on every ACC article with why I don’t like ACC.

As you seem to be more objective , I can reply to you.
The issue is some AMS2 die hard fan behaviour.

Yes you're right GM is not a reference (not at all) but he had many followers at least during the time of the lift of oversteer controversy. The issue with some AMS2 fans ( still true via this discussion) is they have tendency to attack anyone pointing any weakness of the sim. Most of the other sim has die hard fans but I think AMS2 is the first having this kind of issue consequently it's the sim that have been the most bashed. RF2 have been heavily bashed also because it's share the same fan base specificity but it's less extreme.

An another example is also Jimmy.B , i've seen many AMS2 fans included some of the top timers on the AMS2 official hotlap leaderboard saying that J.B can't drive , the man is not skilled etc.
What i'm trying to say is that some people should think more with ther brain instead of their heart. Stop to think that they are the best drivers of the whole universe, the best "setup" specialists of the whole universe etc. Ams2 have many fans like that that are that are totally closed to any suggestions and criticism.
Those kind of affiramations are at least an insult for J.B millions of followers...Also that's a lack of knowledge of the man's power. He is Mr Simracing , he is a Youtuber but he can bury AMS2 6 feet under if he wanted. Fortunately he step down and just said that he cannot do more video about AMS2.

About youtubers, despite what some sim racers say youtubers are big part of the sim racing universe. Not accepting that but being proud of the sim racing big growth during the past years is non sense or lack of understanding how the whole system works. Sim racing is no longer a "racing bubble" like many people think, it's now a whole industry open to the masses. No because we are racers and fast on track, we have the right to ignore how the marketing and communication side work.

To be clear, I'm not against AMS2 , i'm against some die hard fans that instead of helping it DID and STILL DO harm to it.

MadDriver11 · Apr 24, 2022

R.Man said:
An another example is also Jimmy.B , i've seen many AMS2 fans included some of the top timers on the AMS2 official hotlap leaderboard saying that J.B can't drive , the man is not skilled etc.
What i'm trying to say is that some people should think more with ther brain instead of their heart. Stop to think that they are the best drivers of the whole universe, the best "setup" specialists of the whole universe etc. Ams2 have many fans like that that are that are totally closed to any suggestions and criticism.
Those kind of affiramations are at least an insult for J.B millions of followers...Also that's a lack of knowledge of the man's power. He is Mr Simracing , he is a Youtuber but he can bury AMS2 6 feet under if he wanted. Fortunately he step down and just said that he cannot do more video about AMS2.

The people that engaged with JB, GM, EH in their chat and comments and you call die hard fans of AMS2 were people whose names are Crimson Eminence, Steelcast 27, Oez (to make some examples) that went on to contributing with Reiza to forging the sim and the physics everyone sees right now. They were and they are no die hard fan, they were not blind to the fact that there were things to improve, in fact they were rather level headed people that know much better than JB and GM about car physics and what the deal is with developing a sim. Yet they got insulted just for not following the narrative that everything was garbage and ME wasn't capable to deliver proper simulation.
Having followers doesn't make a streamer any more knowledgeable than people who actually know about car physics and developing a sim.
We go back to self entitled ignorant people who think that because they have x many followers they know it all and they can dispense with setting their wheel base properly or following the instructions developers gave to delete setups folders after an update.
If they feel like pointing out to their shortcomings is an insult they should grow a pair...

R.Man · Apr 24, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
in fact they were rather level headed people that know much better than JB and GM about car physics and what the deal is with developing a sim.

DO your homework , other than handling JB mainly talked about the marketing side of AMS2. What the sim has to offer to makes it unique etc.

About car physics, no need to be a specialist to feel the previous AMS2 issues...Even my 6 years old little cousin who used my simulator time on time knew the difference. I don't know for the other influencers but even if you and co are hating him, JB is a real race car drive and he built track day cars during his free time. He spend much time in his team garage ( race car ) or his own garage ( track day cars ). Do your homework again ... Stop to thinking that you and co are the best drivers of the whole universe, the best "setup" specialists of the whole universe, in sum the best on anything.... AMS2 has also been bashed because some brilliant and lucid people used to think that any physic and handling issues can be fixed with "setups". Ironically, all the setups has been rendered useless once AMS2 issues has finally been fixed. That means what that means... So in conclusion, why would you compare a 10 years experience sim racers AND a real world race driver with "canned physic specialists" who promoted whimsical setups.

AGAIN: To be clear, I'm not against AMS2 , i'm against some die hard fans that instead of helping it DID and STILL DO harm to it.

Automobilista 2 Updated to Version 1.3.5.2

Comments

Attachments

Yes i will stop commenting also due to Godwin's law. I may have touched some sensitive points and decode some denial here and there...when you use discourse analysis you know when people are deliberatley denying something true. ​

- AMS2 fans said that the bouncy cars in AMS2 were normal​

Article information

Share this article

Special events

More leagues

Prizes

Trophies

Forum trophies

Livestreams

Easier access

Other? post your reason

Yes i will stop commenting also due to Godwin's law. I may have touched some sensitive points and decode some denial here and there...when you use discourse analysis you know when people are deliberatley denying something true.

- AMS2 fans said that the bouncy cars in AMS2 were normal