2023 Formula One Saudi Arabia Grand Prix

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

markg88 said:
I have to disagree with you here. I believe Russell is better than Hamilton, as a racer and in race awareness, he just doesn't have the Merc team/car experience (obviously) yet, nor consequently, quite as good tyre management (it seems?). He strikes me as more intelligent and happy to make decisions. Bottas was never like that and I'm sure Russell is well aware and so is probably nipping in the bud any possibility of team favoritism towards Hamilton, especially as Toto seems desperate for his boy to get an 8th title.

I wasn't making a judgement call based on who was better; I was simply saying that if Mercedes (not me) thinks its in their best interest to have Lewis pass Russell then that is what they should do.

As for Russell vs Hamilton. I think right now Russell is a better driver; I think Hamilton's race awareness is better. One thing I think Hamilton doesn't get enough credit for is how well he knows what is going on in race. One thing I think Hamilton doesn't get enough flak for his how sometimes he seems to get too caught up in that, doesn't focus on driving and ends up making dumb mistakes.

The point from SA where Russell wasn't aware that Alonso took his penalty... Hamilton would have never missed that.

Celestiale · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
Does everyone want Ricciardo to replace Perez? I haven't read every comment here, but I didn't see anyone say that.

And how was Perez more successful than another Verstappen teammate that comes to mind.... Ricciardo? Daniel finished ahead of Max twice in the championship while on the same team. Even accounting for the fact that Max missed four races the first year, Riccairdo still would have finished well ahead of Max that year. Perez best finish ever was third place, which he did once last year when the RB was clearly the best car when accounting for reliability. Daniel best finish was also third, but he did it twice, in 2014 and 2016 when the RB was the second best car by a significant margin.

I guess everyone's definition of "success" is different, but I think you have to draw an incredibly deliberate line to say that Perez was more successful than Daniel.

You are mixing up two things here.

1. Ricciardo of now can't be compared in any way with Ricciardo 7-10 years ago. He was one of the best (2-3) drivers of the grid back then, but declined massively. Right now there are at least 10 drivers that are better/faster then him (Checo amongst others).

2. Verstappen was a Rookie back then and became a lot better since (which is just a logical evolution). After gaining some experience, Verstappen clearly beat Ricciardo and it would have been ever more evident each passing year. Hence why Ricciardo left for a clearly worse team.

I would still take prime Ricciardo over current Checo (even if a close call), but current Checo is leaps and bounds ahead of Ric.

Checo is probably the best second driver Red Bull could ever have. LeClerc, Norris, Russel and Hamilton would probably be a tad faster, but do you think they would be happy to play second fiddle? Clearly not, they would fight Verstappen with their teeth and team orders would not work out what so ever. They would not incorporate that "support function" Checo does, like basically doing everything to make Verstappen look better, including destroying their own race - never ever!
Apart from that, most drivers' mentality would just go downhill rapidly with Verstappen as a teammate which would lead to a lot worse results and ultimately becoming a lot worse as a racer.

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

Celestiale said:
You are mixing up two things here.

1. Ricciardo of now can't be compared in any way with Ricciardo 7-10 years ago. He was one of the best (2-3) drivers of the grid back then, but declined massively. Right now there are at least 10 drivers that are better/faster then him (Checo amongst others).

2. Verstappen was a Rookie back then and became a lot better since (which is just a logical evolution). After gaining some experience, Verstappen clearly beat Ricciardo and it would have been ever more evident each passing year. Hence why Ricciardo left for a clearly worse team.

I would still take prime Ricciardo over current Checo (even if a close call), but current Checo is leaps and bounds ahead of Ric.

I was responding to "So Perez has been the most successful teammate of Max ever". Right now, it's probably a wash between Riccardio and Checo. I'd give the driving edge to Danny, but Sergio is probably more dependable. But if someone were to say the most successful teammate ever, that would mean at the time. Sergio is quite clearly not the best teammate Max ever had, Danny, at the time, was more successful with a lesser car.

BTW, I think if RB came calling, and their respective teams let them out of their contracts, I think both Norris and LeClerc would jump ship. Especially Norris. I mean, definitely Norris.

davehenrie · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
Does everyone want Ricciardo to replace Perez? I haven't read every comment here, but I didn't see anyone say that.

And how was Perez more successful than another Verstappen teammate that comes to mind.... Ricciardo? Daniel finished ahead of Max twice in the championship while on the same team. Even accounting for the fact that Max missed four races the first year, Riccairdo still would have finished well ahead of Max that year. Perez best finish ever was third place, which he did once last year when the RB was clearly the best car when accounting for reliability. Daniel best finish was also third, but he did it twice, in 2014 and 2016 when the RB was the second best car by a significant margin.

I guess everyone's definition of "success" is different, but I think you have to draw an incredibly deliberate line to say that Perez was more successful than Daniel.

Yes, yes, Ricciardo in his prime as the assumed #1 vs Max just beginning to flex his wings. I am guilty of not taking Daniel's time at RB into account. I think I had my focus on Gasly & Albon.
I would think, the only way Perez is replaced, is if MAX FEELS THREATENED by Checo's performance. As long as Sergio is a good puppy and understands Max is the lead dog, Perez keeps the seat.
Here is what I was responding to: Seems at least someone here wants Daniel to step into Checo's seat.

I really don't like Red Bull dinking around with Perez. He needs to turn his radio off. What are they going to do, give Riccardo his seat in the middle of the race ?

Middle of the race? No. Middle of the season? Absolutely.(my emphasis)

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

davehenrie said:
Yes, yes, Ricciardo in his prime as the assumed #1 vs Max just beginning to flex his wings. I am guilty of not taking Daniel's time at RB into account. I think I had my focus on Gasly & Albon.
I would think, the only way Perez is replaced, is if MAX FEELS THREATENED by Checo's performance. As long as Sergio is a good puppy and understands Max is the lead dog, Perez keeps the seat.
Here is what I was responding to: Seems at least someone here wants Daniel to step into Checo's seat.

Middle of the race? No. Middle of the season? Absolutely.(my emphasis)

That was in response to someone posting something to the effect of Checo should just turn his radio off, what could RB do fire him mid-race? My response was that no, they won't fire him mid race but they could fire him mid season. Of course, Checo isn't just going to turn his radio off the rest of the season. So nobody would was saying they should replace Checo with Daniel.

And Max feeling threatened by Checo's performance. Good one.

markg88 · Mar 20, 2023

Re Verstappen and Perez, and his team-mates generally. I really don't think Verstappen feels threatened by Perez, why would he feel that? I would expect he feels better than any driver on the grid, just like any decent F1 driver should feel. I like Perez but I don't think he's at the level of a few drivers who would threaten Verstappen more if one of them was in the RB, something I'd love to see. I'm not sure any of them would better Verstappen regularly but it would be a good watch.

davehenrie · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
That was in response to someone posting something to the effect of Checo should just turn his radio off, what could RB do fire him mid-race? My response was that no, they won't fire him mid race but they could fire him mid season. Of course, Checo isn't just going to turn his radio off the rest of the season. So nobody would was saying they should replace Checo with Daniel.

And Max feeling threatened by Checo's performance. Good one.

Checo wants wins. Max wants everything. If Sergio puts up anything of a fight like Hamilton/Rosberg, THEN Max will start pouting. How would RB solve that? Some vague injury to Checo that requires Daniel to step in for a race or two. RB tells Max to help Checo's race last year, Max tells them to shut up. RB tells Max they don't need the Fastest Lap, Max tells them to stuff it.
Checo celebrates the win with the entire RB entourage, EXCEPT Jos. Checo wins the race, Max sits in the WINNERS chair in the cooldown room, RB will do everything to keep Max happy.
Based on Daniel's decidedly lackluster results at both Renault & Mclaren, there can be little doubt he's not the Champagne Shoe Sipper of years gone by. Even though Daniel & Sergio are nearly the same age, Perez appears in top form(while still no match for Max) while Daniel couldn't even keep an F2 driver from taking his seat mid-contract.
Here is the final paragraph from a Road & Track article about Daniel's future prior to this season.

That seems like an unlikely path for Ricciardo, who expressed disinterest in racing for either Haas or Williams this offseason. A role could open up at a bigger team at any time, however, and Red Bull's newly rocky relationship with second driver Sergio Perez could open the door for a return to one of the team's race seats sooner than Perez's multi-year contract would otherwise allow.(my emphasis)
Seems to be plenty of press speculation he 'might' wiggle into Checo's ride.

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

davehenrie said:
Checo wants wins. Max wants everything. If Sergio puts up anything of a fight like Hamilton/Rosberg, THEN Max will start pouting. How would RB solve that? Some vague injury to Checo that requires Daniel to step in for a race or two. RB tells Max to help Checo's race last year, Max tells them to shut up. RB tells Max they don't need the Fastest Lap, Max tells them to stuff it.
Checo celebrates the win with the entire RB entourage, EXCEPT Jos. Checo wins the race, Max sits in the WINNERS chair in the cooldown room, RB will do everything to keep Max happy.
Based on Daniel's decidedly lackluster results at both Renault & Mclaren, there can be little doubt he's not the Champagne Shoe Sipper of years gone by. Even though Daniel & Sergio are nearly the same age, Perez appears in top form(while still no match for Max) while Daniel couldn't even keep an F2 driver from taking his seat mid-contract.
Here is the final paragraph from a Road & Track article about Daniel's future prior to this season.

That seems like an unlikely path for Ricciardo, who expressed disinterest in racing for either Haas or Williams this offseason. A role could open up at a bigger team at any time, however, and Red Bull's newly rocky relationship with second driver Sergio Perez could open the door for a return to one of the team's race seats sooner than Perez's multi-year contract would otherwise allow.(my emphasis)
Seems to be plenty of press speculation he 'might' wiggle into Checo's ride.

I find it somewhat odd that you complain about "everyone" wanting to replace Daniel with Sergio based on my response to a completely unrealistic hypothetical situation in which Checo ignores his team and just turns off his radio....

And here you are coming up with ways for RB to replace Sergio.

BTW, sitting in the chair? Are people really serious about that complaint? He just sat in a chair, I hardly think he noticed what chair he was sitting in....kind of like how Alonso sat in Max's chair. It's a chair, not a throne.

Pete Conway · Mar 20, 2023

Tycor said:
Lol, those old Red Bulls were accused of having double diffusers when diffusers got banned after the Button default championship. Oh and yeah, those Red Bulls Vettel won in. Adjustable suspensions, also illegal. All allowed under the British flag of the FIA.

Sounds to me like your just peeved because there's an abundance of British talent heading F1 with 7 out of 10 teams being based where the talent is.
The FIA is based in Paris (and the French don't really like the British much)
Formula One is 'I believe' owned by the Americans (Liberty Media) and I can't see them chucking bones to HAAS... no bias there then,
Red Bull is an Austrian team, Max Verstappen is Dutch and Sergio Perez is Mexican... (oh yeah, Seb Vettel is German...) I really don't know why you're blaming the British for your headaches.

davehenrie · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
I find it somewhat odd that you complain about "everyone" wanting to replace Daniel with Sergio based on my response to a completely unrealistic hypothetical situation in which Checo ignores his team and just turns off his radio....

And here you are coming up with ways for RB to replace Sergio.

BTW, sitting in the chair? Are people really serious about that complaint? He just sat in a chair, I hardly think he noticed what chair he was sitting in....kind of like how Alonso sat in Max's chair. It's a chair, not a throne.

Fairly common behavior throughout the animal kingdom. Dogs pee on other dog's territory. Lions kill cubs to send lionesses into heat, Polar Bears do too, heck some sharks will even eat other siblings while still in the womb(or whatever the egg pouch is called).
Max is king, neither Daniel or Sergio could dispute that, but if more equipment failures plague Max, then Sergio would go from a Loyal Teammate to someone that must be destroyed. Thus Max sitting in his chair is a fairly simple way of reminding Checo not to get too comfortable in any chair.

Badwheels · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
The teams spend and incredible amount of money on their programs, it's unrealistic to expect them to accept lesser results for their money just to appease the ego's of their drivers. If Mercedes thought they were best served by having Hamilton pass Russel, then that's what they should do.

Middle of the race? No. Middle of the season? Absolutely.

It's Jos. And I think his "boy" is all grown up already. He seems to be doing pretty well for himself. If I was a father of an F1 driver, the only person that would be able to tell me to stay home would be my son.

No, if Mercedes thought they were best served by Hamilton passing Russel, then Hamilton should get his ass in gear. And I am not just picking on Merc. I hate when they all do that. Unless the drivers are banging cars, the faster person should just get the job done.

Red Bull was playing a head game, to me, with Perez. He had been leading all race with no issues and then that stupid radio comment about lap times. It's the same as last year when Jos started that noise about how Max should be preferred no matter what.

Which leads into my Jos response. If your son was an F1 driver, your reactions in the the paddock, if your son wanted you there, would be different. You aren't a former driver. But Jos acts like he is a special consultant to Red Bull. Ever hear Hamilton's dad talk about what Merc should do? And still Lewis told dad to stop coming for a while. Red Bull already has that crazy ass Helmut Markos. One is enough.

paracletus · Mar 20, 2023

There used to be a time when the race was discussed on the forums, now it's 90% "he said, she said" and chinese whispers.

I guess there's not much interesting to talk about; suggest DRS is to be deleted asap, and these collosal limosines have to be reduced in size to restore some interesting race craft

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

davehenrie said:
Fairly common behavior throughout the animal kingdom. Dogs pee on other dog's territory. Lions kill cubs to send lionesses into heat, Polar Bears do too, heck some sharks will even eat other siblings while still in the womb(or whatever the egg pouch is called).
Max is king, neither Daniel or Sergio could dispute that, but if more equipment failures plague Max, then Sergio would go from a Loyal Teammate to someone that must be destroyed. Thus Max sitting in his chair is a fairly simple way of reminding Checo not to get too comfortable in any chair.

Or he just saw a chair and sat in it. Just like Alonso saw a chair and sat it. Nobody cares who sits where for the 90 seconds in they're in the cool down room.

muzikant · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
Or he just saw a chair and sat in it. Just like Alonso saw a chair and sat it. Nobody cares who sits where for the 90 seconds in they're in the cool down room.

muzikant · Mar 20, 2023

Badwheels said:
No, if Mercedes thought they were best served by Hamilton passing Russel, then Hamilton should get his ass in gear. And I am not just picking on Merc. I hate when they all do that. Unless the drivers are banging cars, the faster person should just get the job done.

Red Bull was playing a head game, to me, with Perez. He had been leading all race with no issues and then that stupid radio comment about lap times. It's the same as last year when Jos started that noise about how Max should be preferred no matter what.

Which leads into my Jos response. If your son was an F1 driver, your reactions in the the paddock, if your son wanted you there, would be different. You aren't a former driver. But Jos acts like he is a special consultant to Red Bull. Ever hear Hamilton's dad talk about what Merc should do? And still Lewis told dad to stop coming for a while. Red Bull already has that crazy ass Helmut Markos. One is enough.

well.. it is all blown up again as always.. the famous F1 soap about nothing MV, nothing new.. and in terms of content it is not about anything:

as for what you have to say about Jos Verstappen

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

Badwheels said:
No, if Mercedes thought they were best served by Hamilton passing Russel, then Hamilton should get his ass in gear. And I am not just picking on Merc. I hate when they all do that. Unless the drivers are banging cars, the faster person should just get the job done.

I would agree if it three things weren't true.
1) Cars jockeying with each other will slow down both cars
2) A driver driving faster in the short term, but cause him to be slower in the long term
3) The more drivers push each other, the more mistakes can happen.

The idea that Mercedes shouldn't act in Mercedes best interest is completely unrealistic. Every team is going to act in their own best interest. Sometimes that means letting your drivers battle, sometimes it doesn't.

In this case, Russell got on with it and Lewis couldn't keep up.

davehenrie · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
Or he just saw a chair and sat in it. Just like Alonso saw a chair and sat it. Nobody cares who sits where for the 90 seconds in they're in the cool down room.

Taken from the Mirror website
Verstappen was the last of the trio to reach the cool down room after giving his trackside interview at the end of the race. Perez and Alonso were stood chatting in Spanish when the Dutchman walked in, placed his helmet in Alonso's seat and quickly plopped in the chair reserved for the race winner Perez.
1 Lion, 2 leopards. If it didn't 'mean' anything, no one would have taken a photo, no one would have mentioned it. When Apex Predators are in proximity of each other, staking a claim to another's territory is paramount. Max KNOWS what he his.
THIS is why some folks think Daniel will be back in the saddle before the season is over. (notice how I'm now arguing on the other side of the issue? :> )

Inside Verstappen and Perez's cool down room conversation after Saudi GP fight

Verstappen is so used to winning that he sat down in the chair reserved for the race winner at the Saudi GP – as actual victor Sergio Perez chatted with Fernando Alonso in the cool down room

www.mirror.co.uk

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

davehenrie said:
Taken from the Mirror website
Verstappen was the last of the trio to reach the cool down room after giving his trackside interview at the end of the race. Perez and Alonso were stood chatting in Spanish when the Dutchman walked in, placed his helmet in Alonso's seat and quickly plopped in the chair reserved for the race winner Perez.
1 Lion, 2 leopards. If it didn't 'mean' anything, no one would have taken a photo, no one would have mentioned it. When Apex Predators are in proximity of each other, staking a claim to another's territory is paramount. Max KNOWS what he his.
THIS is why some folks think Daniel will be back in the saddle before the season is over. (notice how I'm now arguing on the other side of the issue? :> )

Inside Verstappen and Perez's cool down room conversation after Saudi GP fight

Verstappen is so used to winning that he sat down in the chair reserved for the race winner at the Saudi GP – as actual victor Sergio Perez chatted with Fernando Alonso in the cool down room

www.mirror.co.uk

Well, I watched it live. Max came in last and talked to the other two for a minute and the plopped down in Checo's seat. A second later, Alonso sat in Max seat. They were all exhausted from the race and I seriously doubt anyone cared about what chair anyone was sitting in. They probably were sitting for maybe 12 seconds before they got up to go the ceremony.

Even with it obviously meaning nothing, somebody would run with it. The Mirror would absolutely run with it. Let me guess, did they call for a two year suspension and stripping both his titles and awarding them to Lewis? LOL. It's not shock that the Mirror would run with that. It's the Mirror and we're talk about MV here. ESPN F1 would also run with it (not sure if they did).

We're talking about what seats they sat in for a few seconds???

BTW, it's INCREDIBLY hard to read your posts with the different colors (at least for me).

davehenrie · Mar 20, 2023

Scottt said:
Well, I watched it live. Max came in last and talked to the other two for a minute and the plopped down in Checo's seat. A second later, Alonso sat in Max seat. They were all exhausted from the race and I seriously doubt anyone cared about what chair anyone was sitting in. They probably were sitting for maybe 12 seconds before they got up to go the ceremony.

Even with it obviously meaning nothing, somebody would run with it. The Mirror would absolutely run with it. Let me guess, did they call for a two year suspension and stripping both his titles and awarding them to Lewis? LOL. It's not shock that the Mirror would run with that. It's the Mirror and we're talk about MV here. ESPN F1 would also run with it (not sure if they did).

We're talking about what seats they sat in for a few seconds???

BTW, it's INCREDIBLY hard to read your posts with the different colors (at least for me).

sorry, I was trying to isolate quoted material. (the dang website's editor kept going back to whatever color I had chosen for the quoted text even after I had changed back to black and typed another sentence or two. I had to go back repeatedly to recolor blue (or was it green?)to black...
I would have thought British Press would have pushed for revoking his Karting license and thereby negating all his career F1 points!

Scottt · Mar 20, 2023

davehenrie said:
sorry, I was trying to isolate quoted material. (the dang website's editor kept going back to whatever color I had chosen for the quoted text even after I had changed back to black and typed another sentence or two. I had to go back repeatedly to recolor blue (or was it green?)to black...
I would have thought British Press would have pushed for revoking his Karting license and thereby negating all his career F1 points!

I couldn't tell you, I'm colorblind.

2023 Formula One Saudi Arabia Grand Prix

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