2021 Formula One Saudi Arabian Grand Prix

zwiss · Dec 6, 2021

JayOTT said:
Excessively implies that he slammed on his brakes. 2.4g is not full braking force, so the argument that Hamilton was brake checked would not hold up in small claims court, and should not hold up here either when he had plenty of time to go around.

Ah, then the FIA must have gotten it totally wrong, once again.
Thank god we have so many in-depth specialists on the internet that don't need to see the data

Have a nice day!

randomcallsign · Dec 6, 2021

JayOTT said:
And that's proof that you have no idea how the law works at all.

Try doing a brake check to a car behind, record it and see what SCC says. https://www.allcarleasing.co.uk/blog/brake-checking/

"Brake checking is highly illegal, it's classed as dangerous driving which can carry up to a two year prison sentence and an unlimited fine. The consequences are (rightly) even more severe if a collision is caused resulting in a death. The maximum sentence for death by dangerous driving is 14 years in prison and an unlimited fine."

Brake checking road rules does not apply here. You have clearly no idea how the rules of the road work, so stay out of them please. Thanks.

JayOTT · Dec 6, 2021

zwiss said:
Ah, then the FIA must have gotten it totally wrong, once again.

They always do. It's hard to trust their claims of having facts and data on their side when they never seem to judge with any logic or consistency. Verstappen gets penalised for Monza when he had a right to contest that corner with the only alternative being cutting the track. Then he doesn't get penalised for Brazil when he missed the corner by several car widths and would've caused a double DNF had the runoff not been there. Yet now he gets a penalty that conveniently has no effect on the points tie in the championship, when Hamilton crashed into him from behind.

Enagee · Dec 6, 2021

Let's be honest at the time of the brake test everyone thought there was confusion....... for Lewis and Max they both knew what was going on.
Lewis is not stupid he's not going to overtake before the DRS DETECTION POINT so MaX gets DRS and overtakes back straight away.

Max was being smart trying to slow the car and then accelerate off ...it didn't work out.
I rate Max as a driver but overall his moves were a little bit messy apart from one.

For some of us we just want to see a clean fight... This is not a James Bond movie!!!!! ..... and to be fair Redbull ballsed up the tire strategy for Max so either way he was always going to struggle with tires and hope for a safety car to help him out.

zwiss · Dec 6, 2021

JayOTT said:
They always do. It's hard to trust their claims of having facts and data on their side when they never seem to judge with any logic or consistency. Verstappen gets penalised for Monza when he had a right to contest that corner with the only alternative being cutting the track. Then he doesn't get penalised for Brazil when he missed the corner by several car widths and would've caused a double DNF had the runoff not been there. Yet now he gets a penalty that conveniently has no effect on the points tie in the championship, when Hamilton crashed into him from behind.

One can only imagine how Max would pass or defend without all those run off areas...

cerebralvortex · Dec 6, 2021

zwiss said:
One can only imagine how Max would pass or defend without all those run off areas...

Max would be better off racing on Formula-E street circuits for a few years honestly and then maybe come back to F1.

Sasha Jednak · Dec 6, 2021

zwiss said:
One can only imagine how Max would pass or defend without all those run off areas...

Why imagine if there is Monaco 2018.
Let's be real, they are both winners and they will do anything. When Hamilton in the end "overtook" Max he did it by making sure he went all the way to outside white line on hairpin, despite Max being there. Which is same thing that Rosberg did in Austria 2016, which Max and Lewis did multiple times to each other just this season.

Regarding crash, for me it is quite clear. Driver 1 had obligation to move over, meaning he must slow down and let driver 2 through. He did that, driver 2 accepted and turned out of slipstream in order to pass. But then realised he was outsmarted, so decided to go back behind already slow going car (despite having "miles" of track clean in front) and made contact with back of other car, that was supposed to go slow to let him by. How is that penalty for car that was on same straight line while car behind is weaving left-right I will probably never understand.

zwiss · Dec 6, 2021

cerebralvortex said:
Max would be better off racing on Formula-E street circuits for a few years honestly and then maybe come back to F1.

Nah, without Max we would have had another boring Lewis year

pcraenme · Dec 6, 2021

zwiss said:
You CAN blame him for braking EXCESSIVELY when knowing another car is right behind him. And they did.
Max was playing tricks and the FIA found out. Simple.

The only one playing tricks here is Hamilton and Mercedes. Lewis clearly did not want to pass Max at that part of the track, when Max did what he was asked… let Lewis past. He already shifted down a few gears, but Lewis refused to overtake him. I don’t believe this **** story that Mercedes did not hear Max was told to let Lewis pass. Mercedes and Lewis knew exactly what they were doing. So, what should Max have done? Shift down some more gears and then neutral and stop on the track? But… probably there is another Mercedes loophole in the rules, where the drIver that needs to overtake can choose the best part of the track where to do that, even if it is a few corners and straights ahead.

cerebralvortex · Dec 6, 2021

zwiss said:
Nah, without Max we would have had another boring Lewis year

There is enough talent on the grid to match Max's speed..

pcraenme · Dec 6, 2021

randomcallsign said:
He slammed on the brakes. Incident was done at 100kmh from 300 just a couple of second before. Small claims court would favor the car behind, despite road rules and SCC having nothing to do with F1 racing.

Slammed on the brakes? He dowshifted a few times, so this was engine breaking. When F1 cars slam on the brakes, they stop in 50 meters…

BP · Dec 6, 2021

JayOTT said:
I am flabbergasted and appalled that the stewards punished Verstappen for being crashed into. The number one rule of traffic accidents on the normal roads is that if you get rear ended, the other driver is at fault. It takes an extreme set of circumstances for that to not be ruled the case, both on the public roads and a racetrack, and those circumstances were not met because Hamilton had plenty of time to assess what was going on and cease tailgating Verstappen, either by overtake or move to one side. Since he did neither of these things, the crash is clearly Hamilton's fault.

See? Comments like this prove my point: this is F1, this is MOTORSPORT, not casually driving to the supermarket. Learn the rules of racing etiquette before commenting like they're on I-95 or the Autobahn.

On "normal roads", it is suggested you leave 2 car lengths of space between you and the driver ahead, on a racetrack you're looking for any advantage; those rules do not apply under green flag (Yellow flag, SC and VSC are different, but still not "normal road" rules).
On "normal roads", it is NOT a race to the supermarket to win millions...self explanatory.
On "normal roads" like the highways, if you're letting faster cars by, you exit the fast lane (on HIGHWAYS this is usually the inside line, but on a RACETRACK it's the racing line, which was the outside in this particular area).
On "normal roads", there are no DRS detection points to play games with the trailing driver in your non-existant race to win millions.
Oh and the best one: On "normal roads" my friend, cars are equipped with BRAKE LIGHTS and INDICATOR LIGHTS to show your intentions. Need I brake this one down for you?

and just in case someone wants to say "there's the ERS harvesting light, it's kinda like a brake light"....ummm:
1) it's most definitely NOT a brake light, it may trigger during slowdown, but it depends on recovery settings for the MGU.
2) watch the footage, Max does not harvest anything during that whole slowdown escapade...he moves to the middle, then the right, then the middle again, then JUST before the road gets wider, he slams on the brakes and goes back on the racing line...if the road didn't open up there Hamilton would have been in the left wall after trying to avoid that brakecheck and it'd be game, set and match: Verstappen.

Official telemetry and video footage proves it all; get out of here with that weak "on the public roads" argument.

randomcallsign · Dec 6, 2021

pcraenme said:
Slammed on the brakes? He dowshifted a few times, so this was engine breaking. When F1 cars slam on the brakes, they stop in 50 meters…

2.4G and 69 bar of brake pressure says it was hard braking.

zwiss · Dec 6, 2021

pcraenme said:
The only one playing tricks here is Hamilton and Mercedes. Lewis clearly did not want to pass Max at that part of the track, when Max did what he was asked… let Lewis past. He already shifted down a few gears, but Lewis refused to overtake him. I don’t believe this **** story that Mercedes did not hear Max was told to let Lewis pass. Mercedes and Lewis knew exactly what they were doing. So, what should Max have done? Shift down some more gears and then neutral and stop on the track? But… probably there is another Mercedes loophole in the rules, where the drIver that needs to overtake can choose the best part of the track where to do that, even if it is a few corners and straights ahead.

Both were trying to get the DRS, but Max braked excessively at the last second.
This was proved, that's why he got the penalty.
But hey: please enjoy your 'Fia wants F1 to be boring so they always protect Lewis' - scheme.

JayOTT · Dec 6, 2021

BP said:
See? Comments like this prove my point: this is F1, this is MOTORSPORT, not casually driving to the supermarket. Learn the rules of racing etiquette before commenting like they're on I-95 or the Autobahn.

Racing etiquette still puts the burden of avoiding a crash on the trailing car. Opinion discarded.

Kingkoenig · Dec 6, 2021

Amereto1 said:
I would totally disagree, the antics we are seeing have been part of F1 for many, many decades. The difference now is our era of social media and the TV coverage now gives more access to it. Are these incidents any different to Schumi/Hill, Schumi/villeneuve, Schumi nearly putting Barrichello in the wall at Hungary, Schumi storming down the pit lane to put a right hander on Coulthard, Senna/Prost, on and off the track, Vettel/Webber resulting in that big crash in Turkey, Piquet/Salazar coming to blows, and many instances going back to the 50's of drivers ready to throw hands. We just didn't have access to it like we do now, but F1 has always been a shark tank.
And what's also laughable is F1 fans saying "Oh! Wouldn't it be so great if we could hear team radio, all the communication between teams and drivers, Yes!, Yes! YES!!" F1 fans the next day "Why is Lewis always moaning about his tyres, why doesn't he just shut up", "Why are Redbull always badgering the stewards, why don't they just shut up, blah, blah...we don't like it" Also F1 fans since whenever, F1 is boring, the cars are easy to drive, the races are just processions, it's the same winner every week. Then get a race track where you probably might need an extra cushion in the car to rest those humongous balls (or whatever the women's equivalent is) and the response "It's too dangerous, why do they put walls there and make it so hard, why do they travel at 300 kph and always crash, blah, blah...we don't like it."
This has by far been one of the best seasons in a long, long time, good and bad included from Max/Lewis and Mercedes/Red Bull, Ron Dennis would be so proud. As long as it's settled on track fairly, may the best man/team win.
And Gasly is my driver of the season, absolutely outstanding job this year.

I notice that the incidents you mention are all from the 90’s and later, with the exception of Piquet and Salazar. Although, that incident doesn't really relate to what I was explaining.

My post was about the the period between the 50’s and 80’s, hence the mention of Villeneuve and Arnoux.

I have no doubt that there were on track incidents before. But the difference is that now, it is constant. As in Max and Lewis incapable of racing each other without crashing into each other.

As far as I'm concerned, the one who got the ball rolling (so to speak) was Senna, who won his 1990 WC by driving into Prost. He also took out Nannini at the Hungarian GP (1990?) Then, Schumacher took it up a notch and became the biggest bully in F1 (hence my unfavorable opinion of him). That set precedents that younger drivers emulated. Verstappen is a perfect example of a driver who relies on intimidation. He's the Dale Earnhardt of F1: drivers who come up close to him will probably think twice before passing because they know he has no concerns for whatever happens on track, it's his corner and he will take it, no matter what.

Now, it is deemed acceptable to swerve in front of your opponent to block him. DRS doesn't help, because the car in front is basically a sitting duck. What's left but to block to defend your position? Combined with the fact that passing is already quite difficult with the current aero package, and you have a recipe for all these incidents that are now customary, where bits of bodywork and front wings fly off and we need VSCs to clear the track.

BP · Dec 6, 2021

JayOTT said:
Racing etiquette still puts the burden of avoiding a crash on the trailing car. Opinion discarded.

"It is a yoke! the normal roads argument...a yoke!"

Dude just stop. There was no crash to avoid until Max did what he did. This was lap 37 of 50 of the penultimate FOMRULA ONE race between the two championship rivals. If you think Hamilton thought Max was slowing down simply to let him by, with those erratic moves before it, then forget selling you a dummy, let's talk about you buying this bridge over here my friend...

zwiss · Dec 6, 2021

JayOTT said:
Racing etiquette still puts the burden of avoiding a crash on the trailing car. Opinion discarded.

That's the definition of brake-testing: the following car has NO CHANCE to avoid. Hence it's forbidden.

JayOTT · Dec 6, 2021

BP said:
There was no crash to avoid until Max did what he did. This was lap 37 of 50 of the penultimate FOMRULA ONE race between the two championship rivals. If you think Hamilton thought Max was slowing down simply to let him by

How much slower does Max have to go to make it obvious that he's trying to concede the place? He was already down to 4th gear. On a car that has 8. In the middle of a straight. If Hamilton's response to that is to tailgate them instead of simply taking the place, he's the one driving dangerously.

randomcallsign · Dec 6, 2021

JayOTT said:
How much slower does Max have to go to make it obvious that he's trying to concede the place? He was already down to 4th gear. On a car that has 8. In the middle of a straight. If Hamilton's response to that is to tailgate them instead of simply taking the place, he's the one driving dangerously.

He doesnt need to go much slower at all. Choose the line or left and lift to 50% throttle. Ferlipe Massa stated what he did wasnt obvious.

2021 Formula One Saudi Arabian Grand Prix

Who will win the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix?

Max Verstappen

Lewis Hamilton

Other Driver

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