Why is nobody talking about AI aggression? It's a dealbreaker in SP...

Justin Davis · Dec 24, 2014

My only guess is that most people on this forum are online-only racers...

The AI in this game ruin it. I can not have a clean race unless I set the difficulty ridiculously low, which is no fun... They constantly go for overtakes that a human player would immediately recognize as being impossible and then, once they inevitably go too deep, refuse to back out of their suicidal maneuver and spin me out. The AI CONSTANTLY goes for gaps that just aren't there... It's pretty much a roll of the dice as to whether or not I'm going to have a clean race. This is NOT enjoyable in the least... At least in rFactor I could dig into the .aiw's and the .hdv's and tweak all of that garbage out...

Don't get me wrong now; when I do have a lucky roll of the dice and get an incident-free race against the AI it is some of the most fun I've had playing SP in a racing sim, period. I really do enjoy the hell out of this game. I have the utmost respect for the developers, and I applaud them for being the only one of the "next gen" sims to offer a complete package and not just piecemeal cars and tracks...

There has to be a way to make it so they don't try going for ridiculous overtakes like this. I'm no programmer, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable feat... There has to be a way to tell the AI that if you go for the overtake and the player closes the door, BACK OFF. As of right now it seems that they're oblivious. It feels like trying to complete a race against a full grid while invisible...

I'm not knocking Raceroom Racing Experience, I'm knocking the AI...

Opinions?

Nathan27 · Sep 1, 2015

Paul Jeffrey said:
@Nathan27 - Despite being in the wrong section.. welcome anyway! And congrats on your first post.. trust me, many more will follow
Enjoy your stay here buddy... its a fun place to be

Haha sorry Paul I followed a Google link to the page where I posted, people seemed to be discussing what was my main point to post. Thanks for the welcome!

Paul Jeffrey · Sep 1, 2015

No problems mate, as I say, its a good bunch of guys and gals here so i'm sure you will enjoy yourself matey, have fun!

skidmark33 · Sep 3, 2015

My goodness what an interesting discussion... here's my two cents worth...

I race on Get Real, AI = 106, WTCC 2013. I have been a sim racer for 15 years, starting on titles like EAs F1 series and Papyrus Nascar 2003 (the best racing sim ever... ahem...).

I think the AI in R3E is the best I've experienced. I love it. It's hard, it barges in and it doesn't surrender meekly when you are side by side.

I've found that I'm only hit by the AI when I am too slow into a corner - and it's very annoying cos usually I end up in the kitty litter, unable to save the spin. To me this is mostly realistic - in real racing the cars are very close together and if the car in front does something unexpected (brakes or slows down quite 'early', or even fails to accelerate out of a corner as expected) it will cause big problems for the cars behind. Sometimes they will have time to avoid you (and do) but not always.

There is another time when the AI might hit you and that is if they are well up on your inside going into a turn - they will expect you to give them some 'racing room', i.e. they expect that you will take the corner together, especially on the first lap. This was a mistake I used to make a lot when I started sim racing - I would simply turn in on a car that was beside and slightly behind me and I would cause an accident. Developing awareness of what's around you took practice but once I got it I found I had far fewer accidents.

The AI is not perfect but it is very, very good - for me. I have completed perhaps 150 races against the AI on about 15 different tracks and have had very few (three or four?) occasions where the AI has hit me - and that because I was too slow or cut them off.

One more thing - I like how the AI is so consistent both across and within tracks. In Codemasters F1 series the AI would be blisteringly fast at one track and then horribly slow at the next, meaning on a particular setting I would come first easily at one race and last easily at the next. This would happen within tracks too - on some corners I would plough into the back of all the AI cars that couldn't do it as fast as me. On another corner though the AI would magically race through at impossible speeds. I haven't found that at all in R3E.

I give the AI 9/10.

Thanks for reading my longish post...

shardshunt · Sep 3, 2015

skidmark33 said:
My goodness what an interesting discussion... here's my two cents worth...

I race on Get Real, AI = 106, WTCC 2013. I have been a sim racer for 15 years, starting on titles like EAs F1 series and Papyrus Nascar 2003 (the best racing sim ever... ahem...).

I think the AI in R3E is the best I've experienced. I love it. It's hard, it barges in and it doesn't surrender meekly when you are side by side.

I've found that I'm only hit by the AI when I am too slow into a corner - and it's very annoying cos usually I end up in the kitty litter, unable to save the spin. To me this is mostly realistic - in real racing the cars are very close together and if the car in front does something unexpected (brakes or slows down quite 'early', or even fails to accelerate out of a corner as expected) it will cause big problems for the cars behind. Sometimes they will have time to avoid you (and do) but not always.

There is another time when the AI might hit you and that is if they are well up on your inside going into a turn - they will expect you to give them some 'racing room', i.e. they expect that you will take the corner together, especially on the first lap. This was a mistake I used to make a lot when I started sim racing - I would simply turn in on a car that was beside and slightly behind me and I would cause an accident. Developing awareness of what's around you took practice but once I got it I found I had far fewer accidents.

The AI is not perfect but it is very, very good - for me. I have completed perhaps 150 races against the AI on about 15 different tracks and have had very few (three or four?) occasions where the AI has hit me - and that because I was too slow or cut them off.

One more thing - I like how the AI is so consistent both across and within tracks. In Codemasters F1 series the AI would be blisteringly fast at one track and then horribly slow at the next, meaning on a particular setting I would come first easily at one race and last easily at the next. This would happen within tracks too - on some corners I would plough into the back of all the AI cars that couldn't do it as fast as me. On another corner though the AI would magically race through at impossible speeds. I haven't found that at all in R3E.

I give the AI 9/10.

Thanks for reading my longish post...

the ai progarmmer has talked about better ability to detect slow cars but on word on when yet. this will help with multiclass

Paul Jeffrey · Sep 3, 2015

Nice posts.

I agree, for me personally the AI works really well. I tend to race with it set to around 110% (I like a mid pack fight) and for the most part I have experienced no problems at all.
The only thing that I don’t like, and its quite a big issue, is the AI's lack of ability to overtake each other.. this is especially apparent in qualifying when a line of cars bunch up behind a slower AI (usually behind the Lada in WTCC 2014) which artificially effects the grid positions. This has a knock on in the race because said slow AI will be near the front due to the bunching and the same issue happens again ... this is a bit of a shame and breaks immersion, but I have no doubt it will be resolved in future patches...

Cheers

skidmark33 · Sep 3, 2015

Yes, I agree.

My 9/10 rating is based on my experience with AI in other games rather than being an 'absolute' score. The AI isn't perfect but it is very good and very much something to build on and further improve. I imagine AI is hellishly difficult to program and I think these guys have done a great job so far.

Here are some AI 'fixes' I'd like to see:

(1) Less frequent hitting the wall at turn 8 at Norisring (while its nice to see AI making the occasional mistake, the frequency of cars hitting the wall here is way too high).

(2) Further to (1) above, these cars then become smoking zombie wrecks that circulate at half-speed for several laps (instead of heading straight for the pits and retiring).

(3) Again related to (2) above, the other AI handle these slow moving cars quite poorly, losing several seconds whenever they approach them. Human players can then race past this conga line... (this issue is related to the one Paul raises in post #85).

(4) This leads to the broader issue of AI handling of slow cars that so many of us have mentioned. There are three (at least!) strands to this:
(i) AI getting past AI zombie wrecks (or slower same-class cars generally) - which I would have thought would be a relatively easy fix, both in (a) getting damaged cars to pit rather than keep going and (b) getting other AI to recognise damaged and slower cars and just sail past without losing time, especially on straights.
(ii) efficiently getting past slower classes of car in multi-class races (I haven't seen this as I have never done a multi-class race, but it's mentioned by shardshunt in post #84).
(iii) AI dealing with a human car that is slightly off the pace in a particular corner (e.g. braking or decelerating too early) and sometimes hitting the human car. I suspect this one is the most difficult to fix (assuming there is a problem and I'm not at all sure there is). We want the AI to be aggressive and competitive and I suspect this is the price we pay for that. If the AI back off, it may become like many games where just being in front of a car will keep it behind you. I would hate to see that as the 'fix' in this case.

(5) AI piling in at turns 1/2 at Salzburgring - the AI need to understand that 23 cars into one tight chicane will not go! This leads to more conga lines of zombie wrecks - see (2) above.

(6) I'd like to see the AI occasionally (not too much!) miss a braking point, run wide etc. Needs to be rare but it also needs to happen. I'd also like to see a failed (or even successful!) 'bonsai move' of one AI on another from time to time (without sacrificing any realism - I'd hate it to end up a circus of crazy moves).

Paul Middleton · Sep 22, 2017

I Have got to say that this is unbearable. every single time i start race i get rammed up the Arse by the Ai. i have just enough time to put the car in first gear and just set of the smallest amount and i get rammed and put sideways. its beyond useless. this is not realistic its beyond a joke. if i wanted to play my game like this i would play online. the oldest games out there know how to go around you at race start. but i dont even have time to begin. the ai has this spooky speed on start up that you can not beat. and you always get slammed. and then you have to take a pit stop. this is a joke.

Lars Hansen · Sep 22, 2017

skidmark33 said:
(6) I'd like to see the AI occasionally (not too much!) miss a braking point, run wide etc. Needs to be rare but it also needs to happen. I'd also like to see a failed (or even successful!) 'bonsai move' of one AI on another from time to time (without sacrificing any realism - I'd hate it to end up a circus of crazy moves).

Already happens. You can in fact 'pressure' the AI into making a mistake by following him/her close enough. It's comparatively rare, but it does happen.
Oh, and I suspect you mean 'banzai', not 'bonsai'

Paul Middleton · Sep 22, 2017

AI RACE START
IVE HAD A BETTER EXPERIENCE WITH SETTING A FORMATION LAP FIRST AND THEN RACING CAUSE YOU DON'T STOP YOU JUST CARRY ON. ONCE YOUR GOING THE AI IS VERY GOOD,
THE AI IS A SWINE AT THE START OF A RACE. IT DOESN'T CARE IF YOU GET A GOOD START OR NOT. IT WILL PLOW THROUGH YOU IF YOU DON'T GET A GOOD START.
IVE TRIED SETTING UP A BUTTON FOR A HANDBRAKE START BUT IT ISN'T WORKING. AND I HAVE TRIED SETTINGS OFF WITH THE CLUTCH WHICH SEEMS BETTER BUT THIS NOT AS GOOD AS THE AI AND I STILL GET SMASHED INTO AT THE START BUT WITH CLUTCH START IT IS MARGINALLY BETTER.

F_B · Sep 22, 2017

From my experience every AI in every sim is not very careful at the start of a race. I think it’s also the most difficult part of a race for the AI – many cars placed close to each other. Even humans have problems with this, see public server racing in AC or also Iracing lower splits.

Karvon26 · Sep 23, 2017

Old threat with still current problems? I think we still have those issues.

The agression/intelligence of the AI has improved on this last years (this threat is 2014), you won't find a faster AI driver for 10 laps behind the worst car, that's really nice and for that reason if you create your own championship it makes sense, because the best players will be always on the top (example Y Muller on WTCC 2013).

About the AI itself... I must admit I get really upset sometimes and I quit the game enraged. It seems that they are unable to change their raceline despiste you are there many times. Easy example: GTR3 on Mount Panorama. Go there and play a race of 15 minutes with mandatory pitstops.

- In many corners you will be kicked because you brake earlier, they're simple faster (I play on 112 AI level), they brake later, etc. For no reason, there are other curners such as the last three ones from this same track where they lose up to 1,5 seconds in only 3 corners...
- Pitstops... wohoo, this should have its own threat. They start braking on the straight before pits crashing between them, then after they pitstop they brake again on the long straight (seriously?)

IMO the AI level is good but they have 2 big mistakes.
- They always want to follow the same raceline and that makes, in my case at least, if you play on harder level than 100% AI, that they brake later than you most of the times, basically this resumes in a crash unfortunately more times that it should.
- The collisions (not sure if this is a pure simulator on that aspect or not) are 90% of the times exaggerated. A normal collision from behind makes you lost completely the control and crash/kiss the grass.

I enjoyed many BTCC/Porsche Cup races where there are always a lot of crashes during the races and they do not do (normally) a single spin, in R3E it's impossible not to spin when you get crashed from behind.

skidmark33 · Oct 29, 2017

Lars Hansen said:
Already happens. You can in fact 'pressure' the AI into making a mistake by following him/her close enough. It's comparatively rare, but it does happen.
Oh, and I suspect you mean 'banzai', not 'bonsai'

Oh my... goodness me yes... ahem...

.

A Bonsai move, on the other hand, would be a very neat, charming and somewhat understated passing manoeuvre. Not what I meant at all.

And you may not have noticed but my post was actually two years ago... before the AI update that introduced AI mistakes...