Why is nobody talking about AI aggression? It's a dealbreaker in SP...

Justin Davis · Dec 24, 2014

My only guess is that most people on this forum are online-only racers...

The AI in this game ruin it. I can not have a clean race unless I set the difficulty ridiculously low, which is no fun... They constantly go for overtakes that a human player would immediately recognize as being impossible and then, once they inevitably go too deep, refuse to back out of their suicidal maneuver and spin me out. The AI CONSTANTLY goes for gaps that just aren't there... It's pretty much a roll of the dice as to whether or not I'm going to have a clean race. This is NOT enjoyable in the least... At least in rFactor I could dig into the .aiw's and the .hdv's and tweak all of that garbage out...

Don't get me wrong now; when I do have a lucky roll of the dice and get an incident-free race against the AI it is some of the most fun I've had playing SP in a racing sim, period. I really do enjoy the hell out of this game. I have the utmost respect for the developers, and I applaud them for being the only one of the "next gen" sims to offer a complete package and not just piecemeal cars and tracks...

There has to be a way to make it so they don't try going for ridiculous overtakes like this. I'm no programmer, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable feat... There has to be a way to tell the AI that if you go for the overtake and the player closes the door, BACK OFF. As of right now it seems that they're oblivious. It feels like trying to complete a race against a full grid while invisible...

I'm not knocking Raceroom Racing Experience, I'm knocking the AI...

Opinions?

Jay Ekkel · May 22, 2015

All i can say is, wait for next patch. Not going to say its going to be perfect, but i will be a whole lot better! Where I found myself kind of staying away from racing the AI because of their "personality issues" I now love playing SP with the updated/improved AI in our dev build.

Just a little bit longer wait for you guy, but I hope you will have the same experience once the new update has rolled out. Until then new dev stream coming up next week!

Keith Dixon · May 22, 2015

[QUOTE="Satangoss, post: 2009905,
Just say if this behavior is acceptable for a AI car.[/QUOTE]

Same corner first lap the AI takes me at the exact same place but I see him coming and give him the room, I knew my tyres and brakes were still cold so forcing it wasn't the smart thing to do, clean pass, there on in I make damn sure I run a tighter line through there and give no one else the room to try

You leave a big enough gap of course the AI will go for it and if your not fast enough to read it your going to get hit, there's a lot of people out there trying to force the win who cause half the issues themselves, understanding and being aware of the AI is just as important as pacing yourself and planning your climb through the field

Satangoss · May 22, 2015

It's difficult to race watching the mirrors waiting for the next insane trying of the AI. But in any cases the post by Jay Ekkel gave me hopes, I'm delaying my offline championship until this next path, I think an aware AI and this racing game would be really top-notch.

Edit>I see your gameplay is very smooth, no stutters, I'm facing some stutters problem (980 GTX, i74790)

Keith Dixon · May 23, 2015

Satangoss said:
It's difficult to race watching the mirrors waiting for the next insane trying of the AI. But in any cases the post by Jay Ekkel gave me hopes, I'm delaying my offline championship until this next path, I think an aware AI and this racing game would be really top-notch.

Edit>I see your gameplay is very smooth, no stutters, I'm facing some stutters problem (980 GTX, i74790)

Yea by the sounds of it the update should be pretty good and hopefully ease things out for you and some of the other guys, graphics wise I'm only running a gtx 660 in this system and have near enough everything on high without any issues at all, frame rates are good and it's smooth as, maybe check your drivers because with a 980 and that processor you should be having no problems at all, unless your running triple screens and there's issues that side I don't know

Sean Kenney · May 23, 2015

I still have a mostly great time with the AI....not trying to sound like a cheerleader, but in general the AI it pretty good.

Don't get me wrong times I have to turn the game off bc I get pissed, then I come back and have very little issues and a tight race battling to get into the to half.

Sk3ptik0n · May 26, 2015

Jay Ekkel said:
All i can say is, wait for next patch. Not going to say its going to be perfect, but i will be a whole lot better! Where I found myself kind of staying away from racing the AI because of their "personality issues" I now love playing SP with the updated/improved AI in our dev build.

Just a little bit longer wait for you guy, but I hope you will have the same experience once the new update has rolled out. Until then new dev stream coming up next week!

That would be a most welcome change.
After all, all I (we) are asking is for the AI to race their cars as a human would. A human that

1) Wants to finish the race instead of contemplating a heap of bent metal and cracked carbon fiber
2) Has a number of mechanics (not to mention the team owner) in the pits that are going to get upset if he/she drives into other cars for no reason destroying expensive bits of carbon fiber
3) Someone that understands when another driver is taking stock of his car and lapping at 90% and therefore doesn't just figure that the best strategy is to hit the car ahead in a way that IRL would terminate both cars race and injure both drivers.
4) A driver that may bump the car ahead, but not floor the gas until both cars are welded together sharing a destiny of destruction and mayhem.

In short: Please make the AI try to avoid the other cars as much as possible. The current ai drives as if they were the only car on track. Everyone else is just a fantasy in their computer mind.

BTW: R3E is far from the only Sim with AI problems. pCARS AI share many of the same shortcomings, including the attitude that other cars don't exist and driving into the grass is perfectly fine.

AC has also similar issues, including one the other sims don't share which is the swerving and braking for ghost on track.

Sad to say, but the AI in GTR2 and rFactor (GSCx) with all their shortcomings, are still the best. At least they are not out to murder you.

Looking forward to the upcoming patch. If I still get hit by an AI car going 150mph while I am minding my business in practice at 100mph, I am going to take the matter to The Hague and have you guys indicted for violating the Geneva Convention.

Rikki88 · Jun 1, 2015

Sk3ptik0n · Jun 1, 2015

Breaking a bit earlier and slowing down a bit on some turns is a valid and time honored defensive strategy in RL. If you got somebody on your gearbox and you manage to slow down even a bit at the apex, you force him to slow down even more and lose momentum (the pCARS engineer even suggests that during races).

In both pCARS and R3E (as well as a bunch of other games) doing so is suicide because the cars ignore you. In both pCARS and R3E some AI decide to cut through the hairpins directly. Which I find unbelievable. Surely there must be a way to keep the AI from passing in the grass? Sometimes they are so deep in the grass that another AI can get in between you (on the kerb) and the AI in the grass. That's how far into the grass they are.

Also someone should tell R3E and pCARS that weaving left and right on the start, ignoring nearby cars, is not "aggressive" is a dick move. You do see a car or two in RL doing it, but when almost every car does it is a recipe for disaster and looks silly.

Rikki88 · Jun 3, 2015

Azfalt Raser · Jun 4, 2015

Here's a suggestion:

There is a slider for AI currently. Move the slider, the faster or slower AI drives. Right?
Have a separate slider for AI aggression.

On low setting, you get "Sportsmanship Mode"
Braking when they should
Accelerating when they should.
Giving you the line when it's clear you have the line.
Letting you pass when you are clearly faster than they are (like getting a blue - move over - flag)
1 blocking move.
Great tool for teaching novice how to race clean.

At the other end of the scale, you get the "fight for every last square picometer of track space, including the space your car occupies" - For those hardcore drivers that want to finish the race with no straight panels.

This would satisfy everyone. You could mix AI speed with AI aggression to find the balance you like.

oh - does R3E have a flag system? yellow flags? blue flags? I didn't notice any. I noticed the BLACK FLAG in my first race after the patch (false start)!

Rikki88 · Jun 4, 2015

Jyri Kettunen · Jun 4, 2015

Didn't know this problem still exists, until I tested DTMs at Bathurst. Constant divebombing I had not experienced with other cars. For example the corner after long back straight, one AI driver cut the inside curbs just to attack my back end and pushed me away. Fast lap ruined.

Sk3ptik0n · Jun 4, 2015

somebloke80 said:
With lower AI they drive much slower which makes qualifying too easy and you get away easily, so races are too easy and boring. It seems they are (still) far too aggressive on higher AI settings, but at least qualifying isn't a foregone conclusion in your favour.

Very true. What I do sometimes I run a qualification where almost invariable I end up in P1 or P2 (adaptive AI) but then I exit and run the race alone starting a bit lower in the order so if the AI are equal or even a bit better than me I can play defense and offense, if I am faster, I can practice passing the field.

You know, when I first heard of "adaptive AI" I was hoping it had a feature where if I you are racing SP and you are in a blowout where you are gaining 3 seconds per lap on the AI (like it usually happens when you first start with Adaptive AI), at least some of the cars would chase you and at least gave you a bit of a hard time.

No one wants to lose every AI race, we only wish for a competitive field, but I dislike intensely lapping on my own while the AI are marching in single file half a lap behind you.

Azfalt Raser · Jun 5, 2015

Sk3ptik0n said:
Very true. What I do sometimes I run a qualification where almost invariable I end up in P1 or P2 (adaptive AI) but then I exit and run the race alone starting a bit lower in the order so if the AI are equal or even a bit better than me I can play defense and offense, if I am faster, I can practice passing the field.

You know, when I first heard of "adaptive AI" I was hoping it had a feature where if I you are racing SP and you are in a blowout where you are gaining 3 seconds per lap on the AI (like it usually happens when you first start with Adaptive AI), at least some of the cars would chase you and at least gave you a bit of a hard time.

No one wants to lose every AI race, we only wish for a competitive field, but I dislike intensely lapping on my own while the AI are marching in single file half a lap behind you.

You have to "train" the adaptive AI.
You can only train them in Races.
They run the trained pace only at the track they are trained on. So you have to do that for other tracks too.
Once they are trained, they run faster in practice and qualifying for that track. It is much more enjoyable.

I selected the shortest race possible for the GTR2 class at Zolder.
It took me 5 races to get AI to run 1:31 to 1:33 laptimes. But I was only driving "just fast enough" to barely win (.100 - .500 at the finish - for fun).

I use tire wear on/damage on for single races & championships.
Like in real life, most cars qualify faster than their race pace. So I have a qualifying pace and a race pace. I burn my tires up if I try to run qualifying pace every lap - until I figure out pitstops. So I trained AI to run 2 to 3 seconds slower than my qualifying pace and it allows me to run a steady race pace, watch my tire wear, and gives me alittle room to "push like hell", if I spin or make a bad mistake. I have only won once with this formula. As I win, the AI gets faster. When I finish poorly, AI slows down. It's very competitive.

Before patch, on another track, I used tire wear off and drove as fast as possible all the time in races. The last race, I was barely faster than the last place car when I spun. I ran a lonely race in last place. That was no fun either.

So pick your poison.
Train AI with thought and foresight or just to go out and drive like mad.
I haven't used the manual AI yet.

Sk3ptik0n · Jun 5, 2015

Indeed I figured that out as well. Problem is that now there is quite a choice of cars and tracks and every combo needs to be trained with at least 3 races in order to have the AI competitive.
Given how many track/class combos there are and assuming you are not obsessed with getting the best possible AI you can, you will lose track of which you have "trained" and which you have not.

I remain convinced that the best "adaptive" ai would be one that is self aware in every race. That won't let you gain 3 or 4 seconds per lap in your first race but will have some car chasing you as soon as they see you are grossly faster than they are. Above all, I'd like an AI that is designed to behave more like an actual, real life field of race car drives.

Even if F1, where the talent and technology are among the most level in motorsport, there are up to 5 seconds per lap difference between pole and the stragglers.
We have been trained by rFactor, GTR2 and other sims to expect the entire field to qualify and run within a second of each other.

I think an AI that adapts not only to the player but to the race and where the individual AI capabilities are organically differentiated from the other AI would be superior to the system sector3 uses.

But regardless, any system would need some sort of manual adjustment to make it more credible. I wish there was a way to fine tune the AI the way, for instance, I fine tune the pit stop timing in GSCx. I got tired of trying to replicate pit stops in my longer SP races in GSCx and I found a way to make the AI pit at different times where before they didn't pit at all.

I'd like to see an AI where it gave me the choice to setup faster and slower cars (maybe with a random number thrown in for good measure to spice up things), when they pit, what type of driving they do, how good they are defensively, how many chances they take.
This is possible today with some sims, but it is a bit cumbersome. Not everyone is familiar with XML, Json or even INI files.
I am pretty good at it, but I don't always want to start coding in order to have a good race.

WHat I envision is a system of sliders that can both affect the driving style and lap time of the whole contingent and of individual AI. Throw a bit of randomness and it I think it would be more fun. Kind of like a setup interface for AI but one that is also written in a way that's intuitive, unlike, for instance, the advanced FFB fine tuning interfaces such as the one pCARS has. Something accessible to every enthusiast.

I think such a system would be completely possible and at the end of the day more fun.

Azfalt Raser · Jun 5, 2015

yeah, I'm not familiar with INI Files. Must be from Finland. Is he any good?

Nathan27 · Sep 1, 2015

Afternoon guys, First post on RD. Not sure if you are accommodating for console users here. Have recently purchased a PS4 with the incentive being to play Project Cars. I've had experience with other race sims such as iracing, race 07, GTR2 & Race Pro on the 360.

I started my career on Project Cars a few days ago starting in the Clio Cup. Loving the visuals and feel of the cars. However really struggling to complete races. I'm running the AI on 100%, using no assists. To compare my pace to that set by the lead AI car in quali spec at round 2 Snetterton 200. I grabbed pole with a 1.19.423 with second place on a 1.19.976.

For the race I was aware of the area of the circuit which played to my strengths, turn 1 inparticular. It seems the AI are constantly attempting moves which are just ridiculous with the distance they are behind, also my mind in blown by how late they can brake and still get the car stopped. I've played around with brake pressures/bias & brake ducts in an attempt to optimise my braking but still unable to brake as late without locking up. They just predictably dive up the inside when I feel I should be free to drive my line into the corner without the fear of being side swiped. Clearly my driving style of prioritising a clean fast exit gives me greater pace over a lap but my inability to brake as late is costing me.

I've tried covering the inside into the last Corner (which is tricky enough) but they still just continue up the inside on the grass over the curb where they end up costing us both 2-3 places. It reminds me a lot of my earlier console racing expirences when racing online being taken out by ametures who think it's a game of Destruction Derby!

The amount of restarts I'm having to make due to simply being taken out is frustrating me to a point where I'm struggling to enjoy the racing just waiting for the inevitable to happen.

I ran the first round at donnigton at 80% AI. Pole position was 3-4 seconds clear & the race dull due to no competition. Is there anyway to control this aggression to make the racing more enjoyable?

Brandon Wright · Sep 1, 2015

Nathan27 said:
Afternoon guys, First post on RD. Not sure if you are accommodating for console users here. Have recently purchased a PS4 with the incentive being to play Project Cars. I've had experience with other race sims such as iracing, race 07, GTR2 & Race Pro on the 360.

I started my career on Project Cars a few days ago starting in the Clio Cup. Loving the visuals and feel of the cars. However really struggling to complete races. I'm running the AI on 100%, using no assists. To compare my pace to that set by the lead AI car in quali spec at round 2 Snetterton 200. I grabbed pole with a 1.19.423 with second place on a 1.19.976.

For the race I was aware of the area of the circuit which played to my strengths, turn 1 inparticular. It seems the AI are constantly attempting moves which are just ridiculous with the distance they are behind, also my mind in blown by how late they can brake and still get the car stopped. I've played around with brake pressures/bias & brake ducts in an attempt to optimise my braking but still unable to brake as late without locking up. They just predictably dive up the inside when I feel I should be free to drive my line into the corner without the fear of being side swiped. Clearly my driving style of prioritising a clean fast exit gives me greater pace over a lap but my inability to brake as late is costing me.

I've tried covering the inside into the last Corner (which is tricky enough) but they still just continue up the inside on the grass over the curb where they end up costing us both 2-3 places. It reminds me a lot of my earlier console racing expirences when racing online being taken out by ametures who think it's a game of Destruction Derby!

The amount of restarts I'm having to make due to simply being taken out is frustrating me to a point where I'm struggling to enjoy the racing just waiting for the inevitable to happen.

I ran the first round at donnigton at 80% AI. Pole position was 3-4 seconds clear & the race dull due to no competition. Is there anyway to control this aggression to make the racing more enjoyable?