Sebastian Vettel

[Hampus Andersson]

5/10 for trolling attempt.

The Ferrari was definitely inferior in most races. By inferior it means it for the most part had absolutely nothing to put up against the Mclaren or Red Bull.

Obviously a lot of teams made mistakes etc but Alonso was always there. Always ready to pick up the pieces.
Up until Suzuka he was also the most consistent point scorer for quite some time.
He never put a foot wrong up until that point, unlike his competitors.

I think Hamilton made on mistake during the season (Maldonado incident)
Vettel did one that i can remember (DRS sign) but i think he had at least one more thing that happened.
Edit: Interlagos wreck.

2012 was probably Alonso´s best ever year in Formula One.

 

[Ivan Mills]

5/10 for trolling attempt.

trolling?!!

so what..i gotta feed it in your mouth too?...you're old enough ,you can do that yourself! You 24,right?

The Ferrari was definitely inferior in most races. By inferior it means it for the most part had absolutely nothing to put up against the Mclaren or Red Bull.

Obviously a lot of teams made mistakes etc but Alonso was always there. Always ready to pick up the pieces.
Up until Suzuka he was also the most consistent point scorer for quite some time.

.

Alonso won 3 races ,had 5 2nd finishes and 5 3rd finishes in '12

How is that absolutely nothing and how is that car inferior?

Ok ,to have you better understand that, look at the '08,'09 season he had in the Renault...which were inferior cars

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Did you miss the "for the most part" and "in most races"
The evidence is there, his car was in the beginning seconds off pace everywhere.
Got a little better but as we saw in Austin they were still miles off the Red Bull and Mclaren.

"so what..i gotta feed it in your mouth too?...you're old enough ,you can do that yourself! You 24,right?"

Is this even english? 2/10 for that one. Come one now, you can do much better then that.

 

[Metalfreaky]

A gallant challenge may earn the Claps but all you need is success. Not about the Drivers but also every one in Earth.

But this discussion is about skill and not success. It's undoubtedly that Vettel was the most successfull driver in the last couple of years, but that does not mean he is also the best.
A skilled driver does not necessarily has to be successfull (although it's most likely that he eventually will win something). People need to start seperating those words.

"Alonso left McLaren due to the lot of conflicts, not that he was winning the titles there and then he decided to go to a lesser team to prove himself. What he did prove in those two years after McLaren was that he could not be competitive in a non competitive car. Alonso did earn the respect, but not that way"

Again it's not about winning. It's about maximising the car or even outperfomring it .No one can win a race in a completly inferior car if the race went normal, but you have to judge the skill of a driver by looking what the car is capable to do and what the driver achived. Imo Alonso did maximise the car in 2008 quite good and even won a race (taking away Singapore of course).

Also I ask you Hampus Compare Lewis, Vettel and Alonso at 25 years of age and tell me what they did and who come out on top

I really don't understand why people are always talking about the age when comparing those two. Vettel isn't a kid anymore, nor is Alonso or Lewis.

it might not have been in any,during Q,but in the races it wasnt far off,it was the 3rd best car,hardly inferior!

The 3rd best fast is of course infreior to the 2nd best and best car. It does not matter if the car is only a 0.1s off the pace or more than a second. And just to be clear: The F2012 was most of the time at least 0.3s or more off the pace of the fastest car. By F1 standards that is the definition an inferior car when fighting about wins and the championchip.

 

[Ivan Mills]

The 3rd best fast is of course infreior to the 2nd best and best car. It does not matter if the car is only a 0.1s off the pace or more than a second. And just to be clear: The F2012 was most of the time at least 0.3s or more off the pace of the fastest car. By F1 standards that is the definition an inferior car when fighting about wins and the championchip.

sorry to keep you waiting on this..dinner was more important

It does matter if the car is slower to the best car by 0.1 ,0.3 or hell ,you even included over 1sec,because when the car is 0.1 or 0.3 sec slower to the fastest car it still gets a pretty good chance to stay close and pounce on any driver mistakes,reliabilty and crew faults of the faster cars...if it's 1sec or over slower then you are lucky to get a podium all year. So yes, 3rd best might be inferior to the 2nd best and 1st best ,but when its only 0.3 it still gives you a pretty good shot of fighting all season...unlike what a trulli inferior car will give you ..a lucky podium here and there.
I see you are an avid Alonso fan and not calling his car trulli inferior upsets you ,since it seems to take away from his glory,but at least I cannot call the F2012 trully inferior if it can amass 3wins ,5(2nd) and 5(3rd) podiums

edit: on the flip side of this argument im not trying to diminish how well he drove last year,the year before and the year before that too. Alonso is definetely the top driver in F1 atm(most complete,although Kimi comes awfully close) and its just a shame he hasnt had the car lately to cash in on his talent,

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Go watch the 2007 season and then say Hamilton needs to deliver like Alonso.
They were neck and neck for the whole season and both drove extremely good but ultimately Raikkonen got the better of both.

Mclaren got Hamilton in as a Rookie thinking that He would help them achieve Better than past. No one didn't know that Hamilton will be Neck and neck. Delivering with out Pressure is One thing but Delivering with heavy pressure and Expectations is another. If you think those are Very same then i can't argue with you.

2012 we all know what happened and we can assume this is the very reason he´s in a Mercedes today.

2011 was horrendous we all saw that.

2011 was a Disaster due to his Personal Life. Compare that to Alonso who never let his personal matters effect his racing which still Lewis needs to Learn (Not much now i think he learned a bit in 2012)

You do realize that both Vettel and Hamilton started racing the same year?
They have equal experience.
And there´s 2 years between them.. Not 20.
He´s not a kid. Max Chilton is a kid, not Vettel.

Hardly 10 races gap but i ask you Do Fighting for Wins is same as Scrapping for Points or even Low places the same?? Do they give equal experience?? Then Why Despite having More Time with a Fast car Lewis only had 3 Podiums more(49) and Less wins than Vettel (I didn't consider 2009 first half ) With Vettel's 4 years tenure with RBR and 1 full season at STR Do with out Skill Can Vettel Manage this ??

I'm not a Blind fan who say What ever you say I didn't agree. I even said Vettel was 2nd Best along side Lewis and Kimi where as Alonso was Best. But saying that he still didn't Proved any thing and he was not in the Level of Best was fully idiotic. What he can do more. He shown why he was the Best in Brazil 2012. He made his championship in that one race itself. You can point out he had an Incident but with a damaged car and Least Possible Engine mode treacherous Conditions. He came back to P6. That was the sign that he was equal to the Best.

 

[Jordi Casademunt]

On Ferrari:

The F2012 was inferior to the rest of the championship contenders (except Lotus most of the time, which makes Kimi's fight for the championship also pretty impressive), and that's what matters. Of course, with a mid-field car Alonso wouldn't have been fighting for the title, but leading the championship with the 3rd/4th fastest car (and not a trivial difference, tenths are worlds in F1) is impressive. Yes, the car allowed him to be right behind to take advantage of the mistakes ahead of him, but what people praise (I think) is that he was always there. No mistakes, not from him or the team. He consistantly stayed behind, at the best the car could give, while the rest of the drivers/teams made mistakes. And when the conditions allowed him to do so, he went for the win.

I highly doubt that anyone half intelligent would actually say Alonso would have fought for the championship in a Force India, a Sauber or a Mercedes. But doing it in 2012's Ferrari was already a huge feat.

As for Vettel.

In my opinion (bolded for emphasis) he has proved that he's the fastest driver in a Red Bull. I would certainly like to see him against Hamilton, Alonso or Räikkönen in equal cars. But as I said, that's my opinion. Does Vettel care a single bit about my opinion, or possibly anyone's opinion? Probably not. Probably I'm the only person bothered by my opinion.

On the other hand, there are facts. Vettel is the youngest three time world champion. The only driver to get 3 championships in a row from his 1st (Schumacher and many others before did 2 at most, and then "took a break"). Has he been "lucky" to land on a really fast (sometimes outright dominating) team early in his career? Perhaps, but Red Bull took him for a reason (same with Hamilton in McLaren), and certainly it wasn't because he brought sponsors . He's clearly a fast driver, one of the best in F1, and one who should still have plenty of potential left to unlock. As Kartik is saying, he's very young, and yes, he's not a kid, but he still has a very long career ahead of him. Unless he peaks very early (unlikely) he can still be a better driver. And as long as he stays at Red Bull, and Newey keeps the inspiration, he's likely to win many more championships. And that's what becomes history.

Lets be honest. No self-respecting driver would EVER leave Red Bull just because the press and fans say he should prove himself, as long as the car can win championships.

I hope I didn't say anything ridiculous, I shouldn't stay awake this late

 

[Tony Holder]

If all he does is drive Newey designed cars and titles with Newey designed cars and no real struggle then i will forever doubt just how good he was. It´s only natural imo.

I am compelled to very strongly agree with you there......

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I'm not a Blind fan who say What ever you say I didn't agree. I even said Vettel was 2nd Best along side Lewis and Kimi where as Alonso was Best. But saying that he still didn't Proved any thing and he was not in the Level of Best was fully idiotic. What he can do more. He shown why he was the Best in Brazil 2012. He made his championship in that one race itself. You can point out he had an Incident but with a damaged car and Least Possible Engine mode treacherous Conditions. He came back to P6. That was the sign that he was equal to the Best.

Clearly there´s a language barrier here.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Clearly there´s a language barrier here.

Apologies for the Use of the Word and Never use it again.

 

[Ejike Wodu]

"I'm not a Blind fan who say What ever you say I didn't agree."

You sound like one to be honest.

 

[Ejike Wodu]

On Ferrari:

The F2012 was inferior to the rest of the championship contenders (except Lotus most of the time, which makes Kimi's fight for the championship also pretty impressive), and that's what matters. Of course, with a mid-field car Alonso wouldn't have been fighting for the title, but leading the championship with the 3rd/4th fastest car (and not a trivial difference, tenths are worlds in F1) is impressive. Yes, the car allowed him to be right behind to take advantage of the mistakes ahead of him, but what people praise (I think) is that he was always there. No mistakes, not from him or the team. He consistantly stayed behind, at the best the car could give, while the rest of the drivers/teams made mistakes. And when the conditions allowed him to do so, he went for the win.

I highly doubt that anyone half intelligent would actually say Alonso would have fought for the championship in a Force India, a Sauber or a Mercedes. But doing it in 2012's Ferrari was already a huge feat.

As for Vettel.

In my opinion (bolded for emphasis) he has proved that he's the fastest driver in a Red Bull. I would certainly like to see him against Hamilton, Alonso or Räikkönen in equal cars. But as I said, that's my opinion. Does Vettel care a single bit about my opinion, or possibly anyone's opinion? Probably not. Probably I'm the only person bothered by my opinion.

On the other hand, there are facts. Vettel is the youngest three time world champion. The only driver to get 3 championships in a row from his 1st (Schumacher and many others before did 2 at most, and then "took a break"). Has he been "lucky" to land on a really fast (sometimes outright dominating) team early in his career? Perhaps, but Red Bull took him for a reason (same with Hamilton in McLaren), and certainly it wasn't because he brought sponsors . He's clearly a fast driver, one of the best in F1, and one who should still have plenty of potential left to unlock. As Kartik is saying, he's very young, and yes, he's not a kid, but he still has a very long career ahead of him. Unless he peaks very early (unlikely) he can still be a better driver. And as long as he stays at Red Bull, and Newey keeps the inspiration, he's likely to win many more championships. And that's what becomes history.

Lets be honest. No self-respecting driver would EVER leave Red Bull just because the press and fans say he should prove himself, as long as the car can win championships.

I hope I didn't say anything ridiculous, I shouldn't stay awake this late

That was well put.

 

[Diego Lopez]

That was well put.

Schumi left and proved that he can win WC in other teams, yes he brought some people from Benetton, but he still won in a car that wasn't up to the same level by margins of the McLaren.

he proved a point.

til now he will never get 2 cents from me.

 

[Dux]

Since Schumacher retired, Vettel is new Schumi for me! And the best now around! I cannot wait to see him in Ferrari ...

Vettel is the 3rd driver in the history of F1 to have won three tittles in row. Before him Fangio and Schumacher only won 3 in row, and Schumacher went onto winning five. 3 titles in row are not won by luck, by fast car, but with clever racing.

I hate when someone says "He wins because of the car" because they kill the beauty of F1. You people do not understand that if you say that, then every single win from another driver can be given the credits to their cars! "THEY WIN BECAUSE OF THE CAR" which is absolutely not true at all!

There are times when that happens yes, but no matter how fast the car is, the driver is the one who need to bring her to the end. Does anyone things that if Hamilton was on position of Vettel in 2010 and 2012 he would have won any title with his agressive style? Me personally i don't think so. And that would be the exact thing that would've happen! Vettel has mind-set exactly the one of Schumacher. He is very calm and he is into his own stuff, he doesn't even care about what others say for him or what were their tips for the Champ of 2012, nothing of it! While on the other hand Alonso was so much nervous, was very unstable, making comments on this and that, i don't say that he was bad while driving, he had the good combination of car and tyres fitting perfectly that allowed him to push much more than anyone else in 2012. I didn't saw Vettel anywhere commenting anything at those times. I assume he was 110% concentrated on his work around the car and in the car. That's why Vettel became 3 times World Champion.

Do you remember Hamilton bothering with Button's twitter?

And did u all saw what happened this year at Malaysia? Vettel actually told everyone in the paddock "I am going for my 4th title, no team orders nothing will hold me, i am Champion and i race to win" Senna mentality isn't it ? How anyone could've hated that? I am fan of Vettel true, but i want racing, and if anyone else did that i would respected him twice as much as i was before.

I would agree on one thing about the "fastest car" He had one in 2011, and then, you all saw what happened. He in fact won 15 out of 18-19 GP's that year. How much did Webber won? I call that stability of his mental toughness.

For those who think that Webber is bad driver, slow, or anything negative just to remind you that Webber was one of the first people in F1 from this generations (past 2 decades) who have scored points on his very first race, with Minardi! Finishing 5th in front of his own crowd @ Australia Alber Park 2001 i think.

For all those who say that it's about the car i would like to remind you of the great drives by Vettel while being only 19y old kid, finishing 4th in China, Fuji, before winning the wet-Monza with pole- fastest lap and driving for Toro Roso! Well i am sorry guys but as Vettel said: "Since i remember of F1 history we always saw the best drivers end up in the best teams" which is one big true.

Why does no one says how Hamilton went straight into Mclaren. He had blown everyone else with his drive for a rookie, didn't he? He had a seat in Mclaren since his 1st season

He even blown away the scared Alonso, who was 2 time World Champion at that time, happily he still is

Alonso in 2010 did a lot of mistakes, i remember reading an article about how the tiffosi were angry from his performance by the race in Monaco, and how he crashed for nothing, for pure share of stupidity. It can happen to anyone, but he was left in the end to fight and decided by Petrov.

Now does anyone remember the same year, and how many times Vettel was DNF from pure car faliure?
He left without brakes in two occasions. He crashed (his mistake and yet kept going) in Button at Spa. Even before he fought and collided with his teammate Webber who was too stubborn to see that Vettel was faster all season. While Alonso had the 110% support of Massa.
He had gear faliure at Monza, driving in 4th gear to clinch 4th place i think. If i am wrong please correct me.
He had also other number of bad things going for him, he left two times because of the brakes while leading! On both occasions Alonso got advantage pure 25 points lead! And with all of that, and plus Alonso mistakes, he won the title. Well i am sorry, but i dont see how that can happen because Vettel had fastest car. His was fast for sure, but was nothing faster than the Ferrari.

In 2011 he had it and he blown everyone else winning 4 races before.

In 2012 he was just id say part of it was luck, driving skill, he had fast car yes for taking the pole and problematic in the end of the races due to the tyres of 2012, area where Italian manufacturer Pirelli are providing all the best for their favorites Ferrari and u know from where they got that pace in the race.

Now in 2013 we see even bigger difference. Ferrari are way better with the tyres than anyone else. Not better than Lotus though, but Lotus doesn't have the speed to compete with that strategy.

 

[Alexander Macdonald]

And did u all saw what happened this year at Malaysia? Vettel actually told everyone in the paddock "I am going for my 4th title, no team orders nothing will hold me, i am Champion and i race to win" Senna mentality isn't it ? How anyone could've hated that? I am fan of Vettel true, but i want racing, and if anyone else did that i would respected him twice as much as i was before.

Vettel deserves no respect for Malaysia, the reason he ignored team orders is because Webber was obeying them and going slowly, so Vettel decided to speed up and close up on Webber before he had time to get away. That is not racing. If they had both been racing flat-out and Vettel beat Webber, there would be no problem. Vettel did not win fairly, end of story. Not to mention the pack of lies he told afterwards. He claimed to not understand the message, despite having called for a similar message in the past. He then apologised and said he was not proud of winning and would not do it again, and then three weeks later he admits that he is not sorry at all and would do it again. This deserves respect? Vettel is a very good driver, but I have nigh on no respect for him.

 

[Dux]

Vettel deserves no respect for Malaysia, the reason he ignored team orders is because Webber was obeying them and going slowly, so Vettel decided to speed up and close up on Webber before he had time to get away. That is not racing..

Not racing? They werent racing anyway, they had commands bro hahaha

All i know is that my respect for Vettel is now sky high, cause when he was fighting with Webber they did it on equal cars and Webber plus had an option to push it and get it back, but he couldnt, Vettel was simply too fast for him.

Team orders? Hell with that! This is F1 not theater! I want racing!
He did exactly the same thing what would have Senna done.
But he wasnt scared of no one, neither is Vettel, while Webber is.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

lol thanks for the entertainment. Anthony Snook got nothing on you!

 

[William Levesque]

One of those fanatic extremists who spend days drooling on the likes of Senna, Schumacher and apparently now Vettel, sweet.

 

[Dux]

One of those fanatic extremists who spend days drooling on the likes of Senna, Schumacher and apparently now Vettel, sweet.

I was born but i was too young to be watching Senna. I have grown up with Schumacher and the fact that thousands of things are connected between Schumacher and Vettel from their first touch with kart to their driving style, i am fan of his since 2007. And when it comes to Senna, i admire him greatly. I am neither some child neither drooling especially not some stupid extremist fanatic trolling. I am sorry but i didn't said anything bad. I gave my opinion he gave his, which clearly, both can be wrong, but i just think that we need to give credit to the drivers and stop with whining for team orders, cars etc. Sometimes in the future someone will have the fastest car, sure, but there are two drivers and when that chance comes u better take it with both hands ! In the end, its all about the driver.

 

[William Levesque]

Just made that statement according to a few details and contradictions in your posts, it's not absolute