Why is nobody talking about AI aggression? It's a dealbreaker in SP...

[Justin Davis]

My only guess is that most people on this forum are online-only racers...

The AI in this game ruin it. I can not have a clean race unless I set the difficulty ridiculously low, which is no fun... They constantly go for overtakes that a human player would immediately recognize as being impossible and then, once they inevitably go too deep, refuse to back out of their suicidal maneuver and spin me out. The AI CONSTANTLY goes for gaps that just aren't there... It's pretty much a roll of the dice as to whether or not I'm going to have a clean race. This is NOT enjoyable in the least... At least in rFactor I could dig into the .aiw's and the .hdv's and tweak all of that garbage out...

Don't get me wrong now; when I do have a lucky roll of the dice and get an incident-free race against the AI it is some of the most fun I've had playing SP in a racing sim, period. I really do enjoy the hell out of this game. I have the utmost respect for the developers, and I applaud them for being the only one of the "next gen" sims to offer a complete package and not just piecemeal cars and tracks...

There has to be a way to make it so they don't try going for ridiculous overtakes like this. I'm no programmer, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable feat... There has to be a way to tell the AI that if you go for the overtake and the player closes the door, BACK OFF. As of right now it seems that they're oblivious. It feels like trying to complete a race against a full grid while invisible...

I'm not knocking Raceroom Racing Experience, I'm knocking the AI...

Opinions?

 

[247]

Have to agree that the ai is quite good but effectively is quite agressive...they shouldn't brake too if i brake too early instead of hitting me everytime?anyway never had any problem with the race pro or race 07 ai...

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

isn't this catch the apex mode still available, not sure....but was a very good way to learn a new track.

on racestart driving the inner-side of the corner is a good way to avoid crashes aswell, deep inside on the kerbs, they can't (or don't) hit you as when you are on the outside. those which really hurt are those if you are in the middle of the track and the ai bumps you from the side you want to turn. thats mostly a restart-race.

but sometimes i think the ai is more aware if you press the brake , but not so aware if you go off throttle first and then brake. but still have to watch this behavior further.

 

[Brandon Wright]

^ I do that, seems to help to some extent. Going into T1 on the first lap I'll gently touch the brake early while still at full throttle, just enough to activate my brake lights to alert drivers behind that I'm about to slow.

 

[Arthur Spooner]

Sorry guys, but my original complaint still stands...

I've bought and played the newest content, DTM '92 (which is absolutely INCREDIBLE!! Sector 3 studios have absolutely outdone themselves on this pack. Well done!), and the AI is as aggressive and blind as ever...

I understand that most of the people commenting in this thread do not see this as a serious issue. I really do. Just understand that the overwhelming majority of people who are subscribed to Race Department are going to be "hardcore" sim racers... The people who are subscribed to RD, let alone the people who actually are taking time to comment in this thread, are (one can assume) in the upper echelon of sim racing/driving skill, as compared to the rest of the gaming community at large.

With all that said, I consider myself in that very same league of sim racer. The only difference being that I am as American as they come... My choice of tracks in sim racing are mostly American (being a LONG time ALMS fanboy), so for me in particular, knowledge of lesser-known (to Americans) European tracks are limited to say the least. A lot of the tracks in R3E are completely new to me, and I mean COMPLETELY...

With that also said, I think I may have a slightly different starting position from, what I can only assume, is a mostly European user base that is commenting in this thread... What I'm getting at is that I am starting from the ground up on a lot of the R3E tracks, and that is exactly where I am experiencing the majority of my problems with the AI and their (in my own words, admittedly) "aggression". Basically, I think I'm experiencing the AI from a different vantage point from most others in this thread...

It seems as though most of your responses are along the lines of "the AI is only crazy if you're slow/in their way...". My issue with that mindset is to ME is that it seems like that would be obvious. My definition of bad AI is not that they are not fast, it's that they are not aware of their surroundings. Fast AI is one thing, AI that are AWARE is a completely separate matter. The AI in R3E are fast, no real question there, but they do NOT seem to be aware of their surroundings... When I, the typical American, decide to race at an obscure (to an American, mind you) track such as Saschenring, during Practice the AI will rear-end me on LAP ONE of practice with such force that it is really hard for me to suspend my disbelief for any period of time... When I race against AI in ANY sim, I FULLY realize that I am competing against a string of zeros and ones. Just an algorithm. BUT... In some sims, the AI is programmed in such a way that I can suspend my disbelief and IMAGINE that I am racing against a full grid of my "peers". That I am an equal. The AI in R3E does not allow me that...

If I'm slower than the pack, or if I make a mistake and slow down momentarily, I expect the other drivers to avoid wrecking and get around me... The fact that the AI in R3E don't seem to do that unless you are on equal pace or faster absolutely RUINS the immersion for me... I need to feel that the other drivers are as worried about wrecking as I am, and I just don't get that feeling with the AI in this sim. The only feeling I get are that they are out for the win at ANY cost, including wrecking themselves and anyone else out of the race.

Basically what I'm saying is that the AI in R3E are fast, but they're not aware enough for me to enjoy single player racing in the same way I can enjoy even much older sims (GT Legends, GTR2, etc...). Here's to hoping that can be tweaked in the near future...

I hear you...

I had AI wreck me even when I was more than a second faster per lap. I started from the back of the grid and as soon as I overtook one of them I could be sure that he would divebomb into my side the next corner. The only way to pass an AI car was when it made such a huge mistake that I got away far enough that it couldn't reach me in the next corner. But in this case the next one I overtook would divebomb me off the track.

I - like you - have the feeling that the problem is a lack of situational awreness of the AI drivers.
They do not even try to avoid wreckage. They do it to each other too, but since the AI cars are like on rails they can't harm each other very much. If their cars were as sensitive as the players cars they would at least have to bear the consequences of their driving, but in most cases they just continue to race as if nothing happened. That's why they don't eliminate themselves completely during a race.

From my experience situational awareness of the AI gets better the less of them are together in a pack. Try the AI in a race with only 5 or so cars and see if that helps. Of course this is not a solution but it might shed some light on the issue.

The funny part is, that not every race goes like this. Sometimes I can get along with a little paint-exchange but nothing serious throughout the whole race. The worst was for me with ADAC GT Masters 2013 on Red Bull Ring. It was impossible to finish a single race there. It has become better with one of the patches after GT Masters 2013 came out. The change I noticed in this patch was that the whole field was not driving in one big pack together throughout the whole race anymore, but split up into smaller groups (AI drivers finally got different strengths!). Still it was quite hard to get through these groups without getting divebombed, but it was possible sometimes and it was more likely to get through the smaller the group was. Still it is quite annoying that the AI that is constantly up to pushing, bumping and divebombing you doesn't suffer from the consequences in the same amount you do. Surviving a complete race is still very unlikely.

Example: You're passing on the inside, the AI smacks you from the outside, sends you into an unrecoverable spin and drives off like nothing happend. Try the other way round: have an AI car on your inside and smack it from the outside with about the same strength. You will most likely spin while the AI drives off like nothing happened. And I'm not even talking about all the following AI cars that stupidly smack into your spun car even if there is plenty of room to evade and enough time to react.

I had discussed this issue in another thread on this forum to no avail. Most people just told me that their AI was fine and they didn't believe me. So I continued to get wrecked over and over again by the (slower!) AI and in the end I gave up. No help from S3 or from anywhere else in sight. Sorry if I sound very pessimistic, but I did not only receive disbelief, some even told me I must be too dumb to drive in a straight line if I don't think this AI is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And to be honest I think this is a very basic problem with gMotor-AI. This situational unawareness was already there in Sports Car GT (if you know this one). It was there in the F1-titles with gMotor-engine (and so in GTR 2002). It was there in GTR, GTR2, GT Legends and also in Race07. Always to a different extent, but always present. So either this is a systematic error in the gMotor-AI or the guys from S3 (or SIMBIN for the older titles) just don't know how to get rid of it. I wouldn't get my hopes up for a solution anytime in the future.

 

[Aaron Markham]

The people having issues need to post replays showing this "overaggressive" AI. Like I've said before I'm having no issues what so ever with the AI. S3 has done an excellent job with it!

 

[Brandon Wright]

They also need to state whether they're using adaptive AI or custom level AI. I've been doing several races with the adaptive AI to get them programmed and they've become quite good and adapted to my style/speed.

 

[CDwyer]

...... I am not good. I finish last most races in mp and AI. .....I don't know what you are doing to get such an aggressive AI,

hehe, I am a slow driver too, (you were ahead of me in a race at Nosring today). The issue that I have is breaking, I break a little early, not ridiculously early, but earlier than a good driver, but I often get bumped off at corners by the AI behind. Its not like I am breaking miles early so the AI is not getting ready to break, I'd expect them to notice and respond.

 

[Arthur Spooner]

The people having issues need to post replays showing this "overaggressive" AI. Like I've said before I'm having no issues what so ever with the AI. S3 has done an excellent job with it!

This didn't help in the other thread too. Another guy with the same issues posted videos but was only crticized for his driving style, like taking a late apex would be an invitation for ramming. Nobody noticed that the AI that was ramming him off came from so far behind that an overtaking attempt was more or less just ridiculous. At first I wanted to post replays too, but when I saw the reactions I refused to waste my time for this.

They also need to state whether they're using adaptive AI or custom level AI. I've been doing several races with the adaptive AI to get them programmed and they've become quite good and adapted to my style/speed.

This doesn't really matter. Adaptive AI is nothing special. It's just custom level AI taking an iterative approach to adjust to the players capabilities, based on car class and track combo. S3 guys said that it takes about 3 races with a given class/track-combo to make the adaptive AI find a good match for the player. So if you want a good matched AI throughout the whole game you will have to do at least 3 races with EVERY car/track-combo possible. WOW! That's cool...and in the end the AI doesen't even have a better behaviour, it just has adapted its speed to the players speed. Still ramms you off, I tried it. Been there, done that.

Before the GT Masters 2013 patch the AI was really fine for me too. But it was adaptive only and there were no offline races available, only 8 (or so) AI drivers driving around with you in free practice. The adaptive AI at this point mostly failed to match my speed. One session they were 2 seconds behind me, the next one 4 seconds faster, the next one 3 seconds faster, the next one 5 seconds slower and so on. Sometimes (probably by chance) they were quite a good match and when I raced them in free practice it was quite enjoyable. No bumping, no divebombing, just a little scratching here and there and they had some minor problems with slow corners, missing the apex most of the times (especially Hockenheim hairpin). It was really good. If I do free practice now and only have very few cars on track that drive around mostly alone it is still very enjoyable most of the time. But as soon as I start a race or have practice with a lot of cars which come together in big packs the wreckfest starts. This is why I think that the AI is overchallenged with too many other cars to take into consideration. But since I don't have any insight into the AI code I can't really prove my point. People don't believe me anyway, so whatever...

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

i think i'm not all wrong.... the AI has no brain, or atleast brain like a bird, so you have to be the brain in the race and in this case you can have a good race if ai-strength fits your pace. some say, best ai, some say they ram me to often...but both are right i would say...sometimes really good, want more... sometimes nope not again, better wait a few patches

but i refer to ALL cars available, not just the new AI with the new cars/physics. i drove'em almost all vs AI i believe

 

[William Wester]

Isn't it interesting though...that some have no or very little complaints with the AI and others think it's impossible to have a good race; there must be some truth to everyone's comments. I have been rammed, but it's infrequent, and most of the time I truly believe I was partly at fault for taking a bad line, braking too early, or taking the corner too slow. If an AI is in striking distance, I am careful to make sure they have a line inside or outside of me. If the AI has a clear line to take they usually will take that instead of the one I'm on. With that said, I also truly believe that the adaptive AI is better to race against and it only seems like it takes a race or two for them to learn. It would interesting to know, and only S3 devs would know, if the adaptive adds more intelligence to their awareness than just picking a AI strength level, it sure seems so.
If I had to chose one AI from all of the sims, as none are perfect, I would chose R3E. They are aggressive but I prefer that to AI that succumbs to any move I make. I have less AI accidents in GSCE but it also doesn't feel like as much as an accomplishment to win. I won't comment on the AC AI, I'm hoping they are working on it. Project CARS is work in progress, very bad to pretty good. The R3E definitely has room for improvement but I get rammed just as often in online racing; not blaming anyone in those cases as it isn't easy to race bumper to bumper without any incidents.
Again, the wide range of comments are very interesting. Everyone's experience seems to differ depending on a set of variables - variables not easy to pinpoint apparently.

 

[Arthur Spooner]

Everyone's experience seems to differ depending on a set of variables - variables not easy to pinpoint apparently.

This!

I was trying to find out what might be the crucial point with my issues, comparing my experience to others experiences but it never seemed to fit. Even if others tried the exact same situation (session type, car, track...) the experience was sometimes the same, sometimes completely different. So far I could not find out why. The only thing I could figure out myself was the fact that it got better for me as soon as there are less cars involved. But even this didn't fit with everybody elses experience.

 

[Skazz]

I did some racing yesterday including both the ADAC 2014 and Silhouette series around Lausitz. For me the AI was night and day:
- silhouettes were barging and shoving all over the place, impossible to avoid being hit.
- ADAC 2014 was civilized, took the racing room I provided instead of hitting me, gave me room when I had the inside line, didn't brake stupidly or weave around, it was one the most enjoyable AI races I've ever had as a result.

(AI was set to the same % in both cases)

 

[Martin Larsen]

I love the fact that AI makes mistakes, and even if they crash in to me I ''dont care'' as long as its a racing incident(and just a few times ofc, not like in every race...). But, the AI(DTM experiance 2014) dont seem to sometimes react to the player. When you watch the AI they can drive with a slow AI car in front in a train for 1000laps without problem. But when we are in front and is 0,1sec slower then them in 1corner then they just smash into you...

I really love this game, but no way im driving a full championship with full laps when you know everytime you have a car behind you, then there is a big chance of them crashing into the back of you if you brake 1meter before they do...

 

[F_B]

If you drove some GT3 races in Iracing then you would not worry about the RRE AI. You just need to learn when they brake and that they'll try to overtake you Bellof-style in every situation. Once you know that you can somehow anticipate their moves and really have some fun races. Just last weekend I had an excellent race in the DTM 92 cars on Norisring.

 

[Pär Öqvist]

I find the AI absolutely phenomenal! Aggressive like they should be. If I make a misstake and brake early I may get a small punt that´s realistic as the AI would not expect that. I don´t want the AI to not race and be total push overs just following the train.

More often then not they line up for an overtake so instead of punting me I find myself challenged to the apex! I have even gotten over/under moves by AI where they deliberately whent slow to get faster on the apex and overtake me that way. I have no problem racing side by side with this AI. They can´t be threatened to back down like in other sims where you can move over from blind spots and they will brake or go off the road not to collide with you. This will move a bit but they will stay on the tarmac and keep challenging you if they have a good opportunity. They do give you space and they don´t dive bomb I find if I am half a metre ahead they often back down if they have the slower line through a corner. Hard but fair more often then not feel very real.

I have mostly run AI races in ADAC Masters 2014. I did one with the Audi Quattro at Sonoma and it was hilarious as the AI had the very exact same problem as I had with that monster drifting all over the place.

Trying the radicals much more civilized again.

 

[Martin Larsen]

I have not tried to much GT Masters since not a big fan of those cars compared to DTM, but it almost sound like the AI is differant i GT Masters then they are in DTM 2014..In DTM like I said, I love that they make mistakes, that you acctually have to fight to pass or keep them behind etc. But then suddently its like they think ''f***k this guy, lets just push him nicely out to the gravel''..

And hope they make changes to the AI in qualifying, so they acctually tries to get a clean lap. And not just drive in a train with a slow car in front. Often I have had Wittmann, Rockenfeller etc out from Q1 because they just drive nicely in a train behind a slower car.

So yeah, dont get me wrong, I really love this game and all. But the AI in DTM atleast(not tested other classes to much) need some work

 

[Satangoss]

Your post is just spot on, the simulator is very very nice, but there's no fun when I tried to race in the middle of AIs...

I either escape from the bunch or I'll be spun by any crazy AI crashing me from behind. Seriously, how the developpers didn't see this before launch?

Very game-breaker.

My only guess is that most people on this forum are online-only racers...

The AI in this game ruin it. I can not have a clean race unless I set the difficulty ridiculously low, which is no fun... They constantly go for overtakes that a human player would immediately recognize as being impossible and then, once they inevitably go too deep, refuse to back out of their suicidal maneuver and spin me out. The AI CONSTANTLY goes for gaps that just aren't there... It's pretty much a roll of the dice as to whether or not I'm going to have a clean race. This is NOT enjoyable in the least... At least in rFactor I could dig into the .aiw's and the .hdv's and tweak all of that garbage out...

Don't get me wrong now; when I do have a lucky roll of the dice and get an incident-free race against the AI it is some of the most fun I've had playing SP in a racing sim, period. I really do enjoy the hell out of this game. I have the utmost respect for the developers, and I applaud them for being the only one of the "next gen" sims to offer a complete package and not just piecemeal cars and tracks...

There has to be a way to make it so they don't try going for ridiculous overtakes like this. I'm no programmer, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable feat... There has to be a way to tell the AI that if you go for the overtake and the player closes the door, BACK OFF. As of right now it seems that they're oblivious. It feels like trying to complete a race against a full grid while invisible...

I'm not knocking Raceroom Racing Experience, I'm knocking the AI...

Opinions?

 

[Satangoss]

In addition, I'm not a slow driver, I have to raise the AI bar to 105, otherwise no fun. But, if I brake 1 meter behind the exact position (which happens all the time, all classes, all cars, all drivers in real life) then I got 100% chance to be crashed from a close AI. The only way to finish any race is to get 2 seconds infront quickly. I'm using DTM 2014 by the way.

 

[Satangoss]

Just say if this behavior is acceptable for a AI car.

 

[Insert Coin]

Just say if this behavior is acceptable for a AI car.

Had that a few times as well, they seem to deliberately knock you off track. Very annoying.