Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[oliver65]

I'm happy about the reactivation of this thread. I have the same worry like other users here, to loose lot of time to finding a good immersion. And its not so easy to change and fix the shakers to another position till the feeling is good. So I would be happy to get from you experience and to go in the right direction.

Some weeks ago I was in intensive contact with Mr. Latte about my wish to extend the rig with shakers and simvibe. After discussion I odererd a bk advance for under the seat, 2 adx maximus for under the pedal which are separated that no vibration can go from left to right. Additonaly 2 inuke 1000 Dsp.
Later a Sinustec 250 for backside on the seat maybe for gearchange. My goal is not to have to much effects to the same point. Then after discussion with Mr. Latte I ordered a motedis Alurig for better stabilities and the fanatec V3 inverted.

Now I'm not sure if I should with this 4 speakers to go to chasis mode instead of 2 front in cm and 2 in em?

1) If you put the shakers under the seat for chasis mode: Do you feel the difference from left and right or goes the vibration to the other side and it's not exactly recognizable from which side the input is coming?
Is it better on the side of the seat?

2) It's a difference to place the shakers horizontaly down to the wood/plate or under the wood up to the plate? Or vertical?

3) If you want to have road texture and rpm with chasis mode, how do you do that or do you need to have 1 speakers again separate under the seat for engine rpm? Or its road texture and rpm senseless (a during vibration....)?

I think with the bk advance I should the curbs and bumps to have with this one.
Or to buy an inuke more and go 4 in cm and 1 -2 in em? I'm really uncertain what to do.

Thanks for you help.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm happy about the reactivation of this thread. I have the same worry like other users here, to loose lot of time to finding a good immersion. And its not so easy to change and fix the shakers to another position till the feeling is good. So I would be happy to get from you experience and to go in the right direction.

Some weeks ago I was in intensive contact with Mr. Latte about my wish to extend the rig with shakers and simvibe. After discussion I odererd a bk advance for under the seat, 2 adx maximus for under the pedal which are separated that no vibration can go from left to right. Additonaly 2 inuke 1000 Dsp.
Later a Sinustec 250 for backside on the seat maybe for gearchange. My goal is not to have to much effects to the same point. Then after discussion with Mr. Latte I ordered a motedis Alurig for better stabilities and the fanatec V3 inverted.

Now I'm not sure if I should with this 4 speakers to go to chasis mode instead of 2 front in cm and 2 in em?

1) If you put the shakers under the seat for chasis mode: Do you feel the difference from left and right or goes the vibration to the other side and it's not exactly recognizable from which side the input is coming?
Is it better on the side of the seat?

Stereo isn't totally necessary to enjoy good tactile but when your feeling "right wheels", then "left wheels" going onto a curb section and coming back off with the "left" then the "right" it is rather satisfying. My own preference is to try to implement into a build, a way to help maintain the stereo. With the idea of keeping the channels separated/isolated or certainly reducing the amount of possible channel blending. An example of this would not be feeling left bumps strongly in your throttle pedal and that left/right bumps in the seat are detectable on each side.

2) It's a difference to place the shakers horizontaly down to the wood/plate or under the wood up to the plate? Or vertical?

Some models can be mounted either way, some like the Clark TST series must be mounted horizontally.
Best to check the manual/PDF for the models each person buys. Most people install Buttkicker vertically, sometimes inverted to match the piston going up/down. Different materials can transmit vibrations differently with variations of how frequencies react in different materials (reverb). With the iNuke DSP amps if you find a frequency too strong, or that it has noticeable reverb, perhaps feels uncomfortable then you can easily use the crossover feature to find and reduce the cultprit Hz causing this. Once detected you can lower the amplitude of these to resolve this issue. I would do this with various test tones when tuning or configuring the installed units.

3) If you want to have road texture and rpm with chasis mode, how do you do that or do you need to have 1 speakers again separate under the seat for engine rpm? Or its road texture and rpm senseless (a during vibration....)?

Simvibe has a feature called the "Output Mixer" here you determine which channels are active. So typically EM, Seat, Pedals etc. Also CM. You can run CM with only 2 units, note if doing this make them the FRONT channels, even if you are only placing 2 on the seat. Within each output you place the effects layers you want each to use. Then you apply the settings in each of these individually. So you can place an effect like "Gear Change" to have layers in all the channels you have in your "Output Mixer". Its a bit of a pain as this has to be done manually and then you have to tweek and tune each to suit. Basically if you dont want an effect coming out of a unit then you don't apply a layer for that effect in that channel. Some effects like engine, if using full 4 way CM allow you to have the effect operate in the front pair, the rear pair or all 4. You can then also have this on any or all EM channels. Or if you want you can have engine only on EM channels.

I think with the bk advance I should the curbs and bumps to have with this one.
Or to buy an inuke more and go 4 in cm and 1 -2 in em? I'm really uncertain what to do.
Thanks for you help.

If we all had the same materials, similar installations then it would be easier to say/show, "heres what works well". Take 8020 for example. Even then you still have a degree of personal preference, you still have people with different types of seats and using perhaps different types of isolators and models of tactile.

I say this often, "Quanity" Vs "Quality" my view is for the best tactile performance you need at least one unit that can deliver really good energy with the lowest Hz. Stereo can be nice in pedals, then engine in an EM in the spine/region and usage of the Advance in the seat for that low bass emphasis for various effects. This is what was recommended to you with the components mentioned, yet achieve these target objectives at a reduced budget.

The sensory input to your brain is then happening in your feet, potentially detectable stereo, high energy with low Hz in the seat/thighs and main body and additional emphasis in the spine region for engines. For me covering all of the body, regions completes the circuit or flow of tactile. Simply better immersion. Having additional stereo in the seat yes could be an upgrade but can be introduced later. You may find when you feel the Advance in what it can output regards low frequencies compared to the other units, the importance of these being well represented are also very satisfying compared to what the most common units can generate.

An easy test for anyone with tactile in a seat, place your hands up behind your head and grab the seat head rest section. This will increase the sensory input as your hands (under arms are sensitive too) also receive the tactile energy within "tissue movement", "nerve endings" and "skeletal joints".

Trying options on the installation is how you will discover what feels or works best.
Just like isolation to control or maintain the vibebration noises or travelling into other areas for some it is very necessary (an apartment) for others in a concrete floor basement it isnt. Yet isolation in controlling or reducing the leakage from the tactile is always beneficial if you can maintain the energy that it goes more into you than into other parts of the rig.

 

[oliver65]

Mr. Latte

I say this often, "Quanity" Vs "Quality" my view is for the best tactile performance you need at least one unit that can deliver really good energy with the lowest Hz. Stereo can be nice in pedals, then engine in an EM in the spine/region and usage of the Advance in the seat for that low bass emphasis for various effects. This is what was recommended to you with the components mentioned, yet achieve these target objectives at a reduced budget.

Thanks Mr. Latte
If I understand correct, then you prefer a sterero in pedals (cm) and em in seat and spinregion?
Because lot of users write with 4 shakers go to the cm mode (like the 4 wheels front and seat left/right).
But my feeling says the same, that vibrations in pedals, under the seat and on spin you get a sophisticated input to your body as if you have all on the 4 position left/right.

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr. Latte


Thanks Mr. Latte
If I understand correct, then you prefer a sterero in pedals (cm) and em in seat and spinregion?
Because lot of users write with 4 shakers go to the cm mode (like the 4 wheels front and seat left/right).
But my feeling says the same, that vibrations in pedals, under the seat and on spin you get a sophisticated input to your body as if you have all on the 4 position left/right.

Stereo in feet is easily detectable, also its a bit more active in the front channels. Having it in both yes increases the sensation. Im not saying to have it only in seat or pedals. If on a budget and seeking to get 4x Mini LFE type units on CM (as many do). This is not necessarily going to be the best working option for that money spent. The Bigger units bring a quality and addition to the whole experience that the smaller more common units just cannot and do not provide. So even one larger unit can add to the experience if combined with smaller stereo units (ADX) and in the case of my recommendation to you an EM based unit for engines/gears added for the spine region.

Such advice as to give you stereo, good low end extraction and full body coverage.
Those are important elements to seeking the best immersion. Yet in my view may be better than 4x Mini LFE in CM. Both can use 4 units and come in at similar prices with both needing 2x amps.

Using CM often you get a similar reaction, like a repeat of the front channels for the rear channels/seat. The front left can have an effect on rear right and front right an effect on rear left (diagonal). I see whats going on in the monitoring I use. Simvibe, unlike SSW, does not seem to make good use of longitudinal effects. Like clearly as SSW does so well with acceleration in the rear and deceleration/braking in the front with very strong/energy sensations possible. In this aspect, it blows Simvibe away, (personal opinion).

CM effects in Simvibe seem to be more L/R focused and not offering full front/back independence. The effects that do allow front/rear placement or operate on all CM channels are generally mono (like engines or wheel lock up). Pretty much the same on each channel.

Tactile In Pedals
I have pushed some of my own ideas to a few guys (in private conversation) as Ive not seen anyone really go out of their way to do something, lets say rather special in the installation of tactile for pedals. Many just add two units to a metal/wooden plate/section or same frame/structure.

I have greater ideas for my own or what I think would be better with having independent isolation and platforms...

 

[signman]

Big LFE now mounted under seat.

I'd be willing to spend time on individual pedal plates.
First I have to mount a TST on an expensive seat..very tricky.

Do you still feel the TST is the way to go Rod, I do still have a spare ADV,

 

[signman]

 

[signman]

 

[Mr Latte]

For me in doing "dual role" over my (4) CM the combination of the LFE and TST was the best.
It surpassed the performance of any single unit. ADX may be a good alternative nowadays but the TST239 may be a bit better with engine detailing and only requires a single bolt to be installed.

Keep in mind the TST will deliver excellent mid and high bass and has an audible presence.
For engines and implementing "audio tactile" to work with telemetry based tactile it will not let you down.

So youre going to make one unit from the BK LFE & TST using the iNuke you can determine the crossover and role of each units output frequencies.

You will discover the BK LFE easily surpasses the BKA for low end.

 

[signman]

View attachment 219518

 

[Mr Latte]

Good to see you finally getting things sorted @signman with SSW in 6CH mode.
Now lets see what we can do eh....


Heres an issue im trying to get a solution for and wondering if anyone knows how or settings required.
Ive tried V Banana, (not that high up with it) and other apps but kinda stuck.

With V Banana I can output audio to HDMI TV or Rift + USB Headset + via my DGX Soundcard for tactile. Thats all good but.....

The issue is with the device I set as my "Default Audio" in my case onboard Sound Blaster what I want to do is EQ the audio for the "audio tactile" only but not have the EQ apply to the other audio devices as is happening.

Im not sure if this is possible with virtual inputs and the EQ APO app I use as the number of options and features would take ages to get a grasp of. Cant find any guides or info on this particular situation neither.

Just curious if anyone can assist in this tricky dilema?

 

[asteroulis]

I was at the same situation sone time ago, but stopped due to sim room renovation.
I can see the possibilities here.
Equalizer Apo is a really capable piece of software, but lacks documentation indeed.
Voicemeeter Banana is really user friendly but it's equalization capabilities simplified. Maybe enough for basic tikering, but if seeking to do advanced equalization like with your inuke, I do feel it has to be done with EQ APO as well.
There is one more piece of software thelat could be used but haven't messed yet. Audio router.
Now in this equation I'd seriously try to find out about the possible lag when adding multiple sound paths in windows.

The first time that I encountered EQ APO I was overwhelmed, and didn't touch it for nearly a year. Next time I understood how it operates. It uses individual scripts that you can turn on/off. Interesting.
You'll figure it out. You're more experienced than I am at these stuff.

 

[signman]

Yet to try this, it's pretty tricky mounting this baby to my carbon seat..my thinking is the section of 45-45 profile will make contact with the actual seat around the spine. Just made it up out of scrap's I had.

 

[Mr Latte]

I was at the same situation sone time ago, but stopped due to sim room renovation.
I can see the possibilities here.
Equalizer Apo is a really capable piece of software, but lacks documentation indeed.
Voicemeeter Banana is really user friendly but it's equalization capabilities simplified. Maybe enough for basic tikering, but if seeking to do advanced equalization like with your inuke, I do feel it has to be done with EQ APO as well.
There is one more piece of software thelat could be used but haven't messed yet. Audio router.
Now in this equation I'd seriously try to find out about the possible lag when adding multiple sound paths in windows.

The first time that I encountered EQ APO I was overwhelmed, and didn't touch it for nearly a year. Next time I understood how it operates. It uses individual scripts that you can turn on/off. Interesting.
You'll figure it out. You're more experienced than I am at these stuff.

Ive looked into APO and the options but about to give up as not found the full solution.
There is a workaround as really I mainly want to boost the subharmonics to give the bigger shakers some very powerful sensations. Then combine this with iNuke DSP settings that are already configured for the tactile hardware being used and installed.

At present I can do this and it not really having much audible effect on headphones or TV speakers audio as they are not really producing these frequencies with much energy/amplitude anyways. So can then leave the typical EQ bands untouched as not to badly reduce the heard audio clarity or quality for Headphones,Rift,TV etc. Those unrequired Hz can be removed via the iNuke so the tactile just get what we want them to use but importantly for the audio-tactile have a good boost coming in with the crucial 10-20Hz region.

This seems to work well, for the purpose desired and isn't hard to implement (just load an EQ preset for the car being driven) which is important as I wanted others to be able to enjoy the same but there seems no simple or perfect solution.

 

[signman]

TST-239 Rear Seat Mounted

This works like a charm !

Tried it in the Vette, felt OK but not sure if I liked it in this car, front engine and all.

Tried it in the Porsche 919 and it's REALLY awesome, the other kicker's are doing a fabulous job of gear change even without the LFE/TST but adding the TST now kicking me in the back makes the drive EVEN better.

Never expected it to work as well as it had ..just chucked some elbow's and profile together.

LFE is kind of too much in the Vette far as gear change goes but feels really good in the 919,
Engine rpm from the TST would be really cool !

 

[Mr Latte]

Any effects can be tweaked so the effect on whichever channel can have less or more amplitude to others. Just a matter of saying what you want.

You can however adapt the sliders (less gear strength) and then save the settings for a specific car if you want. To load as "settings profile" Although this will reduce the effect on "all channels" the effect operates not just a specific one.

This may be good enough and easier than having to copy/paste in say new wav files specially configured. As currently SSW does not allow us to load actual "effects profiles" using different actual wav files created for say a particular car or sim.

 

[signman]

TST now sitting flat Rodder's and profile still touching seat back..will try tomoz.

 

[signman]

I was thinking a monitor on stage is tilted, usually pointing towards the artists face.
Was your thinking the unit would operate better flat Rod ?

 

[Mr Latte]

I was thinking a monitor on stage is tilted, usually pointing towards the artists face.
Was your thinking the unit would operate better flat Rod ?

The manuals for TST state that only the TST 329 Gold and the Parts Express Special TST 209 can be mounted vertically or horizontally. TST 239 and TST 429 (models with the circles not solid disc) are to be mounted horizontally only.

Just playing it safe....

You will find the audio this transmits and with its tactile it does a great job with engine harmonics, drone reverberation giving additional presence using frequencies that make the revs feel nice. Your LFE will add the raw power from the engine audio that we are enhancing and I can tell you now will impress you a lot with what it adds to the current immersion your getting from SSW telemetry based effects.

Install looks better like that but Id remove the inner 8020, to feel how it is with vibes just going in via the bolt/mounts as that may be enough? Although you could have an arm extending going vertical in spine area in the molded dip if you thought it was beneficial or needed. (use velcro or similar to keep it in contact with carbon) just possibilities, play around have fun...

If we apply under 20Hz from bumps wav to the LFE does it detract from the Stereo L/R sensation or its added low end increase the immersion for you?

 

[signman]

This is what is say's in my manual Rod.

 

[Mr Latte]

Perhaps they have updated this model as original manual for these is different. See the manual on Parts Express website. If what you show shipped with what you got then I assume it's okay.