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Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Mr Latte, Jun 29, 2017.

  1. anton_Chez

    anton_Chez
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    Mounting is definitely one of the hardest things for tactile, apart from the actual tuning. Depending on your rig, it might be impossible to get good coverage of tactile feedback if you don't at least try to mod stuff.
     
  2. Ceolmor

    Ceolmor
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    Any photos?
     
  3. signman

    signman

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    rig1.JPG rig2.JPG
     
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  4. signman

    signman

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    pedal1.JPG pedal2.JPG
     
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  5. signman

    signman

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    Bolted my fabricated Advance plates up under my pedal's.. got half the plate over the 90mm profile
    hoping to retain as much energy as possible. I will look into isolating the seat and pedal platform eventually.

    I'd really like to mount my big LFE under my seat now and suss how to mount the Clarke TST either behind or under the seat.. Tricky one.
     
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  6. DM77

    DM77

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    Glad to see this thread is alive and kicking :)

    I've been reading up as much as possible the last 10 days or so since I bought an GT Omega ART cockpit and wondered about the buttkickers that GT Omega sell brackets for, but then googled transducers and found this forum and discovered Mr Latte spreading wisdom, and seeing the setups you guys are using, some of which make me very jealous!

    I'm currently using a Logitech G920 wheel/pedals, TM TH8A shifter and Vergagear SL4000 seat, with an Oculus Rift and 65" 4k LG OLED tv, and 34" Acer Ultrawide 100hz monitor.

    [​IMG]

    I received my SMSL SA-98E amp a few days ago to power a pair of ADX Maximus units being delivered tomorrow, however the amp has a faulty right channel, which only works when the amp is rested on it's side or placed upside-down :-( My current plan is to use the amp to get my setup functioning, then return it for a refund.

    I may take this as a sign to buy a Behringer DSP 1000 instead, after reading what can be gained from frequency tests and parametric EQ to try and maximise the characteristics of each transducer.

    I guess I have 2 main questions as this is my first experience of transducers, considering I have a laminate floating floor separated from a concrete floor by some thin insulation, I have zero materials yet for insulation on my rig, I have not yet purchased SSW or Simvibe and I have a limited budget:

    1 - Simvibe Vs. SSW?

    Is it beneficial/possible to run Simvibe and SSW at the same time? From what I understand it appears Simvibe has some engine effects which are better than (or missing from) SSW, but SSW is cheaper and easier to configure? Being on a slightly restricted budget is it advisable to just purchase SSW to start with, and purchase Simvibe later on, or to use SSW permanently and ignore Simvibe?

    2 - with a single amp and pair of ADX Maximus transducers, is it generally recommended to have them mounted side by side under the seat in Chasis Mode using Simvibe, or to have one unit mounted to the pedals and one under the seat in Extensions Mode? I know the choice of either Simvibe or SSW may also force a certain configuration.

    I would maybe like a Buttkicker LFE later on for engine FX, however this is probably unlikely to happen for a while, so I need to put the pair of ADX to the best use for a while.

    Thanks!
     
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  7. asteroulis

    asteroulis
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    Undeniably the iNuke is the most suitable of all. But if it's twice the cost and it's really important for you to be on the budget no need to go there now.

    You NEED to get isolators to your rig. If you can separate the vibrating part then the vibration finds a path through your body and is not lost around.

    Simvibe is a much more capable and sophisticated piece of software , and it is the king here. Don't get confused.
    SSW has emerged lately as a software designed to drive the Getseat with rumble motors , and expanded it's capabilities by driving bass shakers as well. It still has flows , but it's creator is having amazing support and hearing the feedback he gets from the community trying to fix it constantly.
    Yet , you can have both running , also have audio based tactile etc.
    SSW costs 30 , but for the stereo version. If you want to upgrade to 6ch it's another 30. And it's not easy to do changes on the fly . If you need to change files through Audacity ....goodnight.
    So imho , first you should have in your mind to get simvibe. Then with SSW in the future you can complement effects, etc.

    Probably Extension Mode (EM) in Simvibe (SV) is what I'd recommend. (Seat and Pedals)
    Maybe even Chassis Mode (CM) if you can have mono output for front and back somehow. It can be done via 3rd party software. So pedal ADX front wheels and seat ADX rear wheels...
    Jetseat is supposed to have fixed positioning for the shakers , and not so easy to change that unless you make specific files to add or not effects at a 6ch configuration for example.
    It is channel/ position :
    1/FL , 2 /FR . 3/Seat , 4/Pedals , 5/RL 6/RR
    or something like that but you get the point.
    In the 30$ stereo license it's Left and Right so so other option. So you either choose Left/right
    or Front/Rear , really. I do find rather important though the feedback on your feet so i'd go F/R.


    In any case you'll get frustrated at times by tweaking , but eventually enjoy so much by the outcome , and you'll never be able to race without again once tweaked right. Even Audio based tactile is satisfying.
     
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  8. DM77

    DM77

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    Thanks Asteroulis for the detailed reply.

    It appears I have a bit more investigating to do! I'll have a look at seat and pedals EM in Simvibe, I had planned on mounting both ADX under the seat for L/R two channel chasis mode so I've not looked at options for mounting under the pedals as yet.

    I agree isolation should make a big difference, and it's definitely next on my list of things to look at. I was hoping to keep my rig on castors to make it easier to move, as it's set up in our living room and I wanted to be able to relocate it in front of our TV for the occasions I'm gaming on that instead of my Oculus Rift, and then shove it back to the side of the room.

    I know there are a lot of variables, but generally, should my initial focus be:

    1) isolate the seat and pedals mounting plates/boards from the rest of my rig

    2) isolate the rig from the rest of my room

    3) try for a combination of both?

    Thanks!
    (edited for clarity)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
  9. signman

    signman

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    Awesome reply man ..well done
     
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  10. Beef36

    Beef36

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    I have 2 different brands of tactile systems and my recommendation is to only run one, or at least split the effects and not duplicate them.

    Duplicating both feels like they are tripping over each other and the whole tactile experience gets muddied.

    I now run car feel (eg road vibration, bumps etc) on one system and gear shifts and ABS on the other.
     
  11. asteroulis

    asteroulis
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    @DM77 Nice that you edited that post before I answered!

    Every rig is different due to materials , geometry etc. I don't recall what kind of rig you have (80/20 . wooden , what?) and what are your mounting methods. In any case , since you have ADX units and not some super powerful like LFE's , I would look into isolating first and foremost the place they are in contact with your body.
    That way you'll make the most out of them.

    So that is nr.1 = isolate seat and pedals from the rest of the rig,

    Now if your castors are with rubber wheels you'll have the extra isolation needed in order for any vibration escaping those two areas , staying inside the rig and not annoying anyone else. (covering option nr.3) My suggestion would be to have 3 heavy duty castors (2 back and 1 front) in order to have always perfect contact to the floor . If you have 4 wheels the floor needs to be flat . If the rig has no flex at all (e.g. Steel or thick 8020) and one wheel ends up in the air for a reason you'll have annoying rattling. Extreme scenario since usually living rooms are flat though. I had 6 castors in the beginning in mine and sounded like a herd of sheep .Right now it's on 4 conical rubber isolators but doesn't need moving. (Option nr.2 for me)

    If later you upgrade and have serious tactile power on your rig you can have a platform on castors and your completely isolated rig on top. But that's future plans....


    What @Beef36 is saying and is right ,is that a shaker cannot handle lot's of different frequencies at the same time and managing to give out clear feedback. So if you get all the available effects on your 2 shakers , you'll not get the desired effect. You can add a shifter beep in an engine rpm effect. But if you combine road texture with engine rpm you'll have a constant buzz..
    You'd better start adding effects and build up until you feel nice.
    And also split your audio first to see what audio based tactile is all about. Out of the box feels quite natural and balanced. Telemetry tactile is more complete once tweaked but will need some work to get there.
     
  12. anton_Chez

    anton_Chez
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    I have my rig on carpet, chassis mode setup (4 shakers). Was worried about not feeling much without isolating but it works well as is. Seat shakers mounted on an aluminum plate mounted to seat frame and pedal shakers mounted directly underneath pedal deck. Works well and I have smaller Aura units, not LFE's or anything beefy.
     
  13. asteroulis

    asteroulis
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    Placement is crucial and seems you have them correctly installed. You have them positioned close to your body , and in plates that don't mute the frequencies. Isolation could benefit even more.
     
  14. anton_Chez

    anton_Chez
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    Yeah the aim was to get them as close as possible. Takes some working out but it's one of those things that once it's done, it's done and you enjoy it for a long time. Changing rigs can be a pain, but you tend to look out for ways to mount them before you buy, once you have the experience from the first time.
     
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  15. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Good range of advice given and opinions....

    Lets be straight about one thing, if anyone is going to give you comparisons of SSW to Simvibe or what to get into first then they could give more background on why they offer the opinion they share or give you as advice.

    Does the person have an in-depth usage of owning both? On what level of hardware have they tested? With how many channels active? Was each with default settings or better-prepared settings/files suited to the tactile being used?

    I've yet to see people REALLY get their teeth into anything like a proper comparison. Id even welcome someone to do it. Yet have privately said to some that its not just about "one or the other" but what each can bring. Some may prefer one, some another. Yet there are a few very different technical differences in the effects they both offer and how they both can be controlled. As a tactile nerd, it interests/fascinates me others it may not.

    SSW has been VERY slow to be adopted by owners of some substantially good tactile rigs on these forums. I don't even think Andre the developer/creator knows how good it can really feel on the best hardware in upto 6 channel mode and using well created effect files.

    Perhaps part of the slow uptake may be ignorance or just assumption that it won't or cant be as good as Simvibe. I base my own opinion on not just testing by the seat of my pants (literally) but actually monitoring and seeing when/how/what each individual effect is doing.

    Also lets correct some things here...
    SSW is not 30 and another 30 anything.... :)

    I paid 2800 RUB £37 for SSW and this included the additional 6 Channel Mode required to go beyond more than 2 units. Simvibe is closer to almost double that with current exchange rates. Yes Simcommander 4 offers much more stuff too but if your not using it for more than just tactile you have to buy it as it is, which includes Simvibe controls.

    Easiest to use
    SSW

    On a budget
    SSW

    Using only 2 Channels
    SSW you can have stereo L/R (Lateral) or F/B (longitudinal effects) to feel Deceleration in Pedals & Acceleration in Seat (Simvibe currently doesn't have these effects work in such a way)
    Simvibe can offer you stereo L/R or operate as 2 EM channels with individual effects placed in each channel via the output mixer. These will most likely be engine, gear and mono-based bumps or textures.

    Discussion on using both SSW & Simvibe together
    It would be rather silly to have for example bumps on each, as was mentioned. I don't think that was ever the idea being presented. Mainly if some want "engine" or a specific effect to be used then Simvibe could be incorporated so that EM (individual) units could offer the immersion of that effect(s). Then combine this with an SSW installation over say 2 or more channels.

    What I also see on a few forums or threads is a bit of ignorance in "audio tactile" and I tell you why.
    I presume people try it based on a standard output, yet few like myself have delved into it more deeply and experimented to see what really is possuble with "audio tactile"? By this I refer to what it truly can bring or add if we get creative? To then use iNuke DSP functions and implement other controls that can enhance the low frequencies and bring out of the audio-tactile what is not normally experienced. Man if you could feel the curb response and detail I am getting from testing done at Brands Hatch with the various curbs via the audio it can add to the telemetry based bumps but brings more detailing and varation than the telemetry based bumps do. In this example audio and SSW works great.

    Let me say this, I can name several cars from testing in Assetto Corsa that not only produce rather satisfying engine effects, strong gear changes, strong rev limit too but also low engine rpm sensation and engine idle effects that do not need any fake created engine layers or harmonics within Simvibe to be felt.

    The "audio tactile" thing needs its own thread and research/tests done shared but maybe for another day perhaps. In time when I take the notion I will show how its possible but espically those with BK ADV or BK LFE should be be blown away with what the "audio tactile" can bring when included "CLEVERLY" with usage of frequencies, usage of iNuke and combined with telemetry based tactile.

    All that SSW needs is an RPM based mode that utilises the last approx 30% of RPM values (all cars max rpm detectable by the telemetry) which could enable us to generate a wav file that brings an additional felt increase in energy matching these most used revs. I have suggested this in the past but I guess if enough people request/pressure Andre of SSW he will come up with some solution as indeed "engine beat" is rather useless.

    My advice, put the money saved on SSW compared to Simvibe towards getting the iNuke.
    You won't need to upgrade the amp in future and can be shown how to make use of its additional features.

    Stick with SSW for now as simpler to get to grasp with. As for wav files or effects in SSW, this will not be an issue, ask and they can be created for you, help and give feedback and they can even be personally tailored.

    Other stuff like isolators is take advice given, try and do tests, learn as you go...
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
  16. DM77

    DM77

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    Thanks for the replies guys!

    After having a list minute change of heart regarding the ADX's in stereo under the seat I hit a snag trying to mount the 2nd unit under my pedals. One of the bolt threads in the Logitech G920 pedals was machined incorrectly and I can't get a bolt to screw in more than a few turns, so my original plan to mount the ADX on the underside of the wood beneath the pedal mounting plate into the pedal base failed immediately.

    Plan B was more successful, but not what I intended.

    All the wood screws I could find to mount the ADX to the bottom of the wood are too long, and will end up screwing into my Logitech pedals, and the only working bolts are at the top end of the pedal plate. When I tightened the bolts to secure the wood, the wood was forcing the bottom end of the pedal mounting plate to buckle, and the pedals were rocking backwards. The short bolts included with the Omega ART to secure the bottom end of the pedal plate were the wrong thread size to fit the Logitech pedals, so the pedals are only secured by the pressure from the top bolts, which wasn't an issue before - but it's clearly a problem for me now.

    I had to loosen the bolts, drill through the pedal plate anyway, and use cable ties to anchor the pedal plate to the mounting plate - so much for not damaging the pedals! It's all very temporary and I'm not happy with it, but its the best I could achieve without the correct screws, bolts, and my complete lack of DIY "skills". I might just bite the bullet, mount the ADX under the wood and put up with the screws chewing into the underside of the pedals.

    I'll not mention that I also dropped one of the ADX units and dented the laminate floor in our living room :-( at least it didn't land on my foot and break a toe...

    My rig is a GT Omega ART. I'm not 100% certain where to start with isolation. It has 8 castors, fortunately right now with both ADX mounted there is no obvious jangling of castors which are not quite seated on the floor, and nothing that sounds like the chassis vibrating at annoying frequencies, I'll know more once I put some test-tones through the amp though.

    I've only put some standard songs from Spotify through the amp so far but the tracks were quite bass heavy and I got some decent feedback through the seat and pedals with the amp volume set around 9pm on the dial.

    The rig:
    [​IMG]

    Due to the slightly weak strength just in front of the seat, it won't be possible to try the "2 heavy duty rear casters and 1 front center" unfortunately. I may have to look at either removing the castors and use rubber supports instead, or get some rubber castors as these are just plastic.

    The seat mounted ADX:
    [​IMG]

    I already owned a Vertagear SL4000 seat, so I purchased the Omega ART without the included seat, and later found the seat and chasis are not compatible, hence the seat being bolted to the wood, and the wood being bolted to the chassis - but this made mounting the ADX pretty simple.

    Potential issue with the ADX shakers?
    [​IMG]

    Using "bananna plug" speaker terminations rather than bare wire means the end of the plug rests *really* close to the shaker housing, not sure if this could end up shorting the connection or not if the plugs touch the housing during operation? I may have to pack something down there to prevent a connection happening. For now I positioned them with a wider gap between the end of the plugs and the shaker casing, but I'm not convinced the cable is as secure as it needs to be.

    The rest of my evening will involve purchasing SSW, and testing some games. The next steps will be how to mount the pedal tactile more effectively, returning my defective amp (only works in 1 channel unless you mount it sideways or upside-down!) and getting a Behringer DSP 1000.

    I'll then work on isolating the chassis once all my hardware is in place and I'm certain I won't need to move the shakers again.

    Edit: Images didn't work, no idea why...
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  17. Zoof2

    Zoof2

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    Hi I have looked in various threads and was hoping for some help here .......
    I have recently set up my sim rig and now want to add in some bass shakers of some kind with a budget of about £150 to £180 . Im after a complete idiots guide hopefully with diagrams for cabling etc and what would best suit my budget . I have a seperate sound card installed so just a set up from guide from that point for a complete noob would be appreciated ..
     
  18. anton_Chez

    anton_Chez
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    I think the slow uptake on SSW is the fact that some of us have had a lot of time, testing, and have now achieved a fairly satisfactory result with Simvibe. If a new product was just plug play, then I would be way more willing to grab it and test it out. I have no problem paying for it, but I have settled on a pretty good setup with Simvibe after much time invested. Granted nowhere near Rodney, but there was a time where I was playing with Simvibe more than racing. Add to that the fact I have been working on testing motion settings for Motion Systems and the V3 motion platform, working out best settings for triples and VR, I think it's time I actually put some time into actually learning how to drive.

    Simvibe is such a mind bender that it's actually put me off wanting to do anything like that again. I have like 3 backups of my files for fear of ever losing them....
     
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  19. DM77

    DM77

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    Hi Zoof2, welcome to the forum :)

    There aren't many "idiot guides" unfortunately due to the amount of variety in each persons build.

    The amplifiers, cockpit construction and materials, placement, strength, type and number of tactiles, the software you choose, and the configuration of the software settings can all have good or unexpected affects. IMHO the biggest limitation is budget, which will force your hand one way or another in deciding what to get, where it will go, and which software you will run it with, at least in the beginning.

    If you have a trawl through the threads on here you will pick up a lot of information, most of it won't mean much to start with, but as you start to understand the basics more of it will make sense. I've spent a solid 10 days reading up on stuff and only fitted my tactiles yesterday afternoon, so my own situation is similar to yours, and my knowledge is still limited.

    This thread in particular helped me no end, I had to read it a few times and keep referring back to it after reading some of the others to verify my understanding, but I ended up with the same hardware and it has been great so far (other than a faulty amp which is nobody's fault):

    http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/buttkicker-setup-advice.132153/

    If you can let us know which sim rig you own that will help. For your budget you will probably be limited to a single Buttkicker, and the Simshaker Wheels software (commonly abbreviated to SSW on the forums) which costs around £24 accounting for the exchange rate of Rubles to Sterling. It's pretty simple to set up and "just works" if you just want the basic functions, which is a good enough starting position.

    You could use Simvibe software as an alternative, but it costs more, takes more setting up, and is more complex to navigate, but the end results may be better than SSW. I have a feeling Simvibe might be overkill for a single buttkicker, but I could be wrong and am more than happy for someone else here to correct me if necessary. With your budget in mind I would personally go with SSW.

    The basic requirements are usually a dedicated power amplifier to drive the tactile, a sound card in addition to your on-board audio to control what signals are sent to the amp, a 3.5mm stereo to RCA cable to connect the sound card to the amp, and some 14-16 gauge speaker cable to connect the amp to the tactile.

    If you buy a Buttkicker (once you decide which model is best for your needs) you will get the required amp and cables included. Not sure if you will need any additional cables to run from your sound card to the amp, but I'll check later.

    If you want more than 1 tactile from your budget you will be looking at the very entry level for an amp and a pair of Rechorn BS200's https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reckhorn-s...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=94BQXS401P0N1FC2Z0YY

    The results may be limited, and there are better options available. I believe the Rechorns are similar to the Aura shakers, and I've seen a number of posts mentioning that the Aura's are relatively low impact and limited in scope compared to other shakers. Is it worth your time and money to go for a single, more powerful option like a Buttkicker or amp and ADX Maximus level transducer, with options to expand later, or go for 2x Rechorns to fit the initial budget?

    There are definitely reasons to think about either upping the budget, or getting something you can add to over time.

    The amp I use is an SMSL SA 98-E which was £97.99, it's a stereo power amp so it can drive a pair of shakers. It works great with my ADX Maximus shakers which were £80 each, but the quality is hit or miss according to the reviews. My amp arrived a few days ago with a faulty channel, so I will shortly be putting up a 2 star review and returning it for a refund. If it wasn't faulty I would give it 5 stars because when it works it's great value for money.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/SMSL-SA-98E-Amplifier-TDA7498E-Digital/dp/B00JESRNKO?tag=racedep-21

    After experimenting with my rig today for a few hours I can honestly say if I only had 1 shaker under the seat I would be underwhelmed because the seat seriously dampens some of the frequencies, and I imagine it would be quite easy to overload 1 shaker with numerous effects unless you invest some time tweaking and deciding which effects to use and which effects to ignore completely. However - I have not taken any steps to isolate my rig yet, so I have no idea how much energy is being leeched away into the frame of the rig, or how much it is possible to improve the performance of the seat shaker.

    As it stands right now I can seriously recommend having at least a pair of shakers, one for the seat and one for the pedals.

    SSW is doing a nice job so far and Mr Latte has given me some great pointers (huge thanks!) but I'll still look into purchasing Simvibe next month.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
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  20. DM77

    DM77

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    Looks like I'm joining the Behringer DSP 1000 owners club, just ordered one to replace my faulty SMSL amp, and it should be arriving tomorrow :) Now I just need to work out where to place it, and how to explain it to my wife...
     
    • Haha Haha x 1
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