Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Chrhun]

Hi folks, posted this on reddit but didn't get much of a response, went searching for more and found this thread. This seems like the right place :-D

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I recently built a simlab gt1 evo rig, with an old bmw seat on it.

I'd like to add some transducers but have seen lots of different information, looking for some experienced recommendations.

Here's what I'm looking for:

• mostly iracing
• increased VR immersion
• feeling the engine, shift, kerb vibrations more important than super defined tire slip etc
• up to maybe $500 or so would be ideal, but flexible
• fairly handy, so some diy not a problem

Here are some recommended configs I've seen. I want it to add to the immersion and not be disappointing, but doesn't need to be super top of the line.

• 1 or 2 buttkicker gamer 2, single, or left + right
• 4 x buttkicker mini/cheapy transducers, chassis mode
• 1 big buttkicker, extension mode + 4 smaller ones, chassis mode
• 2 mid/large buttkickers in front and back

Pic of rig: https://imgur.com/a/PUBENkC

Thanks!

I'm kind of looking for the same thing, 2-4 transducers and an amp to run them. What is now recommended? Maybe 100usd per transducer price limit.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm kind of looking for the same thing, 2-4 transducers and an amp to run them. What is now recommended? Maybe 100usd per transducer price limit.

If you have a tub or metal-based seat that lets you stick on the tactile exciters.
This in my experience is a very good entry to consider for tactile immersion. It can be built and expanded upon but is only recently made possible with Simhub enabling the ability to have an increased number of channels than other software like Simvibe or SSW.

It places multichannel output and greater control of effects primarily in the seat. I have been testing and creating effects for this concept for 3-4 months and been very impressed with its potential using the recommended model of the exciter.

There will be a thread coming on this with a review on the amp but currently, I am busy with other things.

Whats needed:
Firstly no modding, no drilling is needed, these units stick (with 3M) to the back of the seat. You connect the cables with the Speakon type of connection to the amp. Then connect the soundcard and that's about it. A fan mod for this recommended amplifier (covered recently) will improve on the standard fans the amp uses as they tend to be a bit noisy. A cable adapter is likely possible to be used to plug into the amps terminals and work with a Noctua fan.

Hardware:
Behringer EPQ 304 amplifier ($279) (fan modified for less noise)
4x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 32mm Exciters (40w 4 ohm) ($20 each)
Speaker Cable
Speakon Connectors

Plenty of posts in the last few months on this concept.
For detail in effects immersion, this will outperform typical installations as these units are directly installed to the seat/body and can place different effects for different body regions. This is one of the primary benefits of this concept compared to typical installations and also the ability that these units can operate with much higher frequencies too which bring far more fidelity. This finer detail is not lost unlike a typical seat installation because the units are directly placed to body regions.

It is possible, to expand these with larger BK units and placing additional tactile in pedals. This too will be covered. My own seat is going to use 8 of these units with 2 amps for much greater control of dispersion of effects. So far I have done testing with 6 units.


All will be covered in the upcoming thread.

 

[boern69]

Ready for take off-
guess this is more than a handful

L +R is extra weight (no idea if this will work)
So lets do it- nobody done this with sinustec or reckhorn in www
before? ...

 

[Chrhun]

If you have a tub or metal-based seat that lets you stick on the tactile exciters.
This in my experience is a very good entry to consider for tactile immersion. It can be built and expanded upon but is only recently made possible with Simhub enabling the ability to have an increased number of channels than other software like Simvibe or SSW.

All will be covered in the upcoming thread.

Thank you for your hard work Mr. Latte on the tactile immersion! I've read your threads in the past but much of it is just too much info for me, so I really look forward to your "guide" for doing things.

I have a bucket seat, I should be able to attack the exciters to it with the sticky sticker.

 

[The Iron Wolf]

Hi,
I am running 4 BK LFE Mini and they tend to overheat and tone themselves down. I understand that I need to lower the volume, but I wonder what produces the most heat? Is it effects that run constantly, like road vibration/RPM, or is it the loudest effects (I have wheel slip/lock set loudest, but they do not play all the time of course). Is it higher or lower frequences? I've set filters in SimHub to 9hz/80hz, so it shouldn't be those high freq's I am not aware of. Thanks

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi,
I am running 4 BK LFE Mini and they tend to overheat and tone themselves down. I understand that I need to lower the volume, but I wonder what produces the most heat? Is it effects that run constantly, like road vibration/RPM, or is it the loudest effects (I have wheel slip/lock set loudest, but they do not play all the time of course). Is it higher or lower frequences? I've set filters in SimHub to 9hz/80hz, so it shouldn't be those high freq's I am not aware of. Thanks

All the original BK amps came with "Crossover" control that would restrict the frequency to the shakers. Its one reason for years I recommended the DSP amps that brought more control of the operation of the tactile unit. Of course, these also enabled EQ control of how specific Hz would be output on the unit as well. So basically these options compared to typical amps lets the user change the character output a unit may have. Some units have peak outputs with different Hz. Very few people will sink their teeth into DSP and using PEQ but this thread has even highlighted at times hardware that is not that expensive that can bring such features to standard amps as well.

The number of effects you run, the type of effects in how constant they are operating and the gain levels you have for these are all factors. Your best approach is to determine what sim and effects or combined effects are causing the issue. Unless you use monitoring audio/hardware you can never be certain what frequencies are being generated in realtime and the dB they are reaching with the settings used in Simhub and the soundcard/amp volumes.

As you layer more effects each effect applying the same Hz will increase the dB of those Hz when this is also combined with high gain settings or amp volumes then it can become a problem.

This from 2017 is related and may be of help.

 

[The Iron Wolf]

I wonder if anyone tried this with BK Mini LFEs?

https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/

If I read above thread correctly, there's a bit of EQ suggested for 20hz-40hz range, right? My amp does not support DSP, I am going to try this software, maybe it will intercept the signal simhub sends.

Edit: just tested this on regular audio, it works, and looks promising

 

[Mr Latte]

I wonder if anyone tried this with BK Mini LFEs?

https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/

If I read above thread correctly, there's a bit of EQ suggested for 20hz-40hz range, right? My amp does not support DSP, I am going to try this software, maybe it will intercept the signal simhub sends.

Edit: just tested this on regular audio, it works, and looks promising

Yeah but that's all been looked at and covered.
Try the "search" feature. I can say with a fair bit of certainty, you will not find something new or missed regards tactile that people here have not at some point discussed, looked into or tried.

Voicemeter Banana is also an option and one that @asteroulis uses/promoted but never shared in detail the pros/cons it had. Twice he was asked to highlight it to other solutions being shared and benefit the people with a use/interest that follow this thread, he may of been busy at the time but that was about 5 months ago.

See pages/posts around the early/mid 50's - mid 60's
My pref is to find the best solution, which often is via specialist hardware and costs more. I don't mind putting the money into tactile, others want to spend much less or take it less serious I suppose.

 

[The Iron Wolf]

Yeah I see, I searched for "software DSP" and for APO on Discord, but it did not occur to me to search this exact same software mentioned here. In any case, it is very useful to know the parameters you guys figured out for the curve, that's a lot of work and time saved for others, I will give it at try. The post you linked makes total sense, reducing overall volume solves the pang, but removes too much of other information, so precise EQ might help get more even response. This APO software is very pleasant and natural to use, does not need to be running, I am pretty excited I've parametric EQ in my toolbox now

 

[boern69]

in the blue corner the champion BK LFE
in the red corner BS 250 with 2kg extra piston mass

 

[Chrhun]

Hardware:
Behringer EPQ 304 amplifier ($279) (fan modified for less noise)
4x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 32mm Exciters (40w 4 ohm) ($20 each)
Speaker Cable
Speakon Connectors

Well, I went ahead, studied this a bit and then ordered all of the above! Looking forward to getting them, the install looks like a breeze and I'm so fed up with the Buttkicker Gamer that I currently have.

 

[herve45]

I'm so fed up with the Buttkicker Gamer that I currently have.

Why ?

 

[Chrhun]

Why ?

I'm having issues with the amp, the power button does not work etc. Currently trying to get it warrantied.

Also I feel that mounting the Buttkicker Gamer on an 8040 rig does not do much, the effect goes to the frame and you don't feel it much in your seat.

 

[herve45]

Thank you

 

[The Iron Wolf]

I wanted to ask for amp suggestions to drive 4 BK LFE units. behringer nx4 6000 is my top choice at the moment, but I am looking to see if there's something maybe a bit less powerful, but slimmer. I would prefer single 4 channel amp, and something not taller than 3in/7.62cm.

Also, what is the minimum wattage BK LFE would run ok with? They are rated at 400W min, but is it really true? Thanks!

 

[BiT0]

in the blue corner the champion BK LFE
in the red corner BS 250 with 2kg extra piston mass

... and the winner is?

 

[DocFar]

Hello everyone here - I only discovered this thread after I purchased an Earthquake XJ-300ST and 2 Earthquake MQB-1 shakers and now it looks like I will move in a different direction - I do like the idea of multiple small transducers closer to the body though I am not sure if this will work well with my racing seat which is a Sparco R-100 (in vinyl) so there are no hard places to mount the Daytons - the seat is mounted on an 8020 rig (using 4040, 8040 so fairly solid - 12040 for the uprights holding the wheel)).

I have not yet read all of this thread (!!! though trying) but I have been using the suggestions here eg I am using Simhub which I have found easy to use and adjustable for specific effects.

My first attempt was attaching one shaker to the front and one to the rear but I can now see the problems with that approach. Tried the amp in Stereo mode and in Low Pass mode which makes it output only mono - in this mode I seem to get better results and output one channel each to each of the MQB-1 shakers. Also only running few effects and at different frequencies (or to separate shakers if running the amp in stereo mode) so that the effects are not superimposed.

So looking to maybe move the MQB-1 s to the front and putting some larger unit under the chair (a Clark Synthesis or a BK LFE??) at least for now and also adding the smaller Dayton DAEX32EP-4 units somehow to the chair. I did see the proposed multi shaker diagram of @MrLatte and will have to slowly move that way as I get approval from the Ministry of Finance by bribing the Minister with many gifts of equivalent or greater value !
I do realise I will need more amplifier channels (so will go with Mr Latte on Behringer EPQ304 amps and change their fans).
Any suggestion on whether a Clark Synthesis or a BK would better under the chair? or is my temporary approach completely flawed ?
The Sparco R-100 seat is not hard shell and does not have a hard bottom but maybe I could put a plate across its bottom so that when I sit on it it compresses to the seat - and so the transducers are attached to the plate (this being Mr Latte's suggestion in early post) ??
Another question is re : mounting my gaming PC on the rig but not sure if this is possible with all the vibration gear ...anyone done this and not ended up popping their PC cards out of their motherboard?

 

[boern69]

... and the winner is?

no winner yet

just have a look at the 2 boxers...
red corner
I fired up the bs 250 and ... it works yeeah (never done this with capsuled shakers)
The shaker goes down to 16hz now perhaps lower did not test more yet
These are good news so far - perhaps I will give it more piston mass to go even lower
Have to be careful
the DSP1000 runs on 1/4 volume in dual mod i think (I dont know much about the amp yet
just turned it on and turned up the volume).
I noticed the good workmanship of the bs250 it moves all very quite but powerful
the spring seems to be a little harder than I expected .
For the shaker is capsuled even after the mod the mass cannot escape
this give me the impression of a more value compared to the rockwood shakers
but with 25 € the are about 10€ more expensive.
The mod was much easier than I thought but this is mostly if u managed it -it is easier next time
because u know how to avoid mistakes -
but I wont recommend doing this without a mill(even with mill it takes only 15 minutes)

Lets find out if 100 watts rms and 250W peak do mean more punch .... tbc

--------------
blue corner
here is a look into a LFE - to know about how it works

guess this is similar to an earthquale

The magnetic mass moves inside the pipe
and it should be possible to run it horizontal and vertikal and somewhere between

thats it for today

 

[boern69]

@DocFar
imo this should help (see quote still wip)
+leightweight + material wood 8020
but there are different opinions here about it so another opinion could fit better for ur rig
For me this sounds much too stiff 12040 and too heavy + the seat should be less stiff lighter and thinner.

free setup seat position f1/GT
free setup wheel position in height + distance
free setup pedal position upside down +distance
complete made of 80% wood frame ->leightweight

mid/low rockwood shakers 20hz (+25hz -5hz bandwith)
https://www.mediafire.com/file/r935h6kydgfmc7j/VID-20190907-WA0002.mp4/file
2 rear horizontal (behind the seat) 3kg weight between the shakers ->motor /shifter
4 wheel (chassis mod) mainframe (less stiff ) but not decoupled L/R <- no need imo

damper rear -> 2help dampers at the front of the seat (have to be moved more to the middle pos.)
2 full dampers at the pedal posotion
->triangle allows roll and light horizontal movement
O -frame can be replaced by TT frame (look at my first test rig) to allow more(less) torsion
and decouple back from front <- not needed atm because material absorbs good

pics of absorber section made of 3 parts
the absorber form makes a difference
sorry for all the cables but its wip

6 more shakers coming
4 pucks at the seat
and 1+2 BK LFE for ultra low

sorry for the short text but there are pics - so not too many words

putting small shakers direct on body regions on the seat is good imo
ah and putting ur pc on the rig is no good idea imo
so happy modding so far

 

[boern69]

woow bs 250 modded
2,6kg 10HZ
the LFE is not! connected
This is becoming more punchy than I thought
sorry hold the handy the wrong way round
imagine this shaking really good
video does not show the movement optimal
-complete silent
-tested for 1 hour yet
great value

https://www.mediafire.com/file/ixs7vsycgrbxrdr/VID-20191008-WA0003_(2).mp4/file