Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[paladin21]

Hey, what a wealth of knowledge in here. Too much information for my brain to process.

So finished my P1X and its time to move to tactile devices. I have seen Peter Winkler's setup and wanted to ask the following (I am in US).

idea is to use 2+2 shakers like 2 Clark synthesis gold or plat + 2 BK LFE and 4 exciters like the Aura pro for chair use.

Is the NX3000D the only decent solution for the bigger ones? Do I need 2 additional sound cards (1 for the 2 NX3000D) and 1 to drive to exciters? Is the Europower EPQ304 Power Amplifier enough to drive Aura pro ? There is another device in his graph the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini which i can only find it in Germany and I am not even sure what it does... <- useless with audio/tactile devices but prefer to follow solutions that work

thank you

 

[Deleted member 197115]

They feel ULTRA rigid horizontally and appear to only flex directly up and down. Very nice!

That sounds great, looking forward to your impressions after full installation as there is obvious lateral movement under braking in video posted above, roughly the same I see from 20mm rubber isolators. But I understand that that unlike rubber bobbins it's adjustable and you can balance between isolation and rigidity.

 

[metalnwood]

That sounds great, looking forward to your impressions after full installation as there is obvious lateral movement under braking in video posted above, roughly the same I see from 20mm rubber isolators. But I understand that that unlike rubber bobbins it's adjustable and you can balance between isolation and rigidity.

Which video was showing the flex? I looked at them but must have missed it.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Which video was showing the flex? I looked at them but must have missed it.

This one, when braking takes place.

 

[RCHeliguy]

This one, when braking takes place.

What I saw looked like front lift and rear compression rather than lateral movement and yes you can adjust the spring compression.

With my seat mover system, it will be interesting to see how the overall feeling is.

 

[metalnwood]

Yes, now I know what you are referring to.

Thats about what mine does as well, Mark is correct that the plate tilts but doesnt move forward, just the spring compressing.

It's really not noticable in use, if you were not looking you would have no idea as the pedal feels the same.

All that will be happening for pressure based brakes is some energy is lost in to the spring so a test could measure that at 100kg, only xx percent is now going in to the loadcell and the rest to the spring. Its not something thta you would need to recalibrate for as the change is insignificant enough.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

What I saw looked like front lift and rear compression rather than lateral movement and yes you can adjust the spring compression.

With my seat mover system, it will be interesting to see how the overall feeling is.

Yes, that, not side to side but back to front, "lateral" as it's not vertical. I do not believe any design can entirely eliminate it esp. in application with heavy load cell brakes. What do you use currently, rubber isolators, would be interesting to hear how they compare flex wise.
Just curios why you went for plastic 3D printed brackets instead of standard metal ones from 80/20, like this.

 

[metalnwood]

@Andrew_WOT here is a quick vid of how mine look, you can tell what I have ripped off to see how well they perform.

I may have more flex in mine as I have found that for my smaller LFE minis this works best. More preload on the spring may be better for the larger units, I will know when I get some.

I tried with two feet pushing on the pedal plate forwards and could hardly budge it. It was only when pressing on the pedal creating a pivot to comress the springs that I get this movement. You can get an idea how much movement based on the 8020 slot. I am pressing quite hard here on my HE ultimates.

 

[blekenbleu]

It was only when pressing on the pedal creating a pivot to compress the springs that I get this movement.

If I correctly understand what that video illustrates,
that spring appears to be working against the (preload?) bolt
unless/until appreciable brake pedal pressure is applied. If so, then isolation is compromised,
with upward phases of shaker vibration cycles working against rubbers instead of the spring.
Preloading for this design would want springs above and below a plate being isolated.

 

[metalnwood]

It was meant to demonstrate how much movement with this isolator

Your point can't be ignored though, the isolation is different when you are on the brake hard. I have put signals through under braking and no braking to test and you can certainly feel the tactile come through differently. I find that most of the effects coming through are fine as most of the time I am not on the brakes. I have only used one effect in the past that I want to feel under some heavy braking and thats usually when I make a mistake, its short and I wouldnt even notice if it felt a bit different.

I guess for me, under heavy braking I am not focused on the tactile so dont notice the differences while racing.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Andrew_WOT here is a quick vid of how mine look, you can tell what I have ripped off to see how well they perform.

I may have more flex in mine as I have found that for my smaller LFE minis this works best. More preload on the spring may be better for the larger units, I will know when I get some.

I tried with two feet pushing on the pedal plate forwards and could hardly budge it. It was only when pressing on the pedal creating a pivot to comress the springs that I get this movement. You can get an idea how much movement based on the 8020 slot. I am pressing quite hard here on my HE ultimates.

Example of poor/inferior copy

 

[metalnwood]

Example of poor/inferior copy

It is a copy for sure but I wasn't worried about what it looks like, I didnt htink it would be wise to get a bolt of any specific length until I had an idea of how much I would tighten it up. The cup washer is nice but only adds to looks.

What I have done that cannot be seen is make some washers that you cannot see, the isolators are mounted on the angle iron with 8mm threaded rod going through. The holes diameter that I drilled in to the angle, from memory was something like 16mm and the angle iron is 5mm thick. Sitting in that 16mm hole are washers that I punched out of 5mm rubber, so this makes sure that there is no metal/metal contact anywhere between the rig and the upper pedal tray.

I doubt there is any hidden sauce that changes anything over what I have got - full credit, a copy.

It was worth trying and certainly a big improvement over no isolation. I have only moved one mini lfe on to the pedal tray and it outperforms having two there in the past with no attempt to isolate

 

[cnhoff]

I can double the statement that this „poor/inferior“ copy works like a charm and isolation is much improved over my previous solution. I can hardly feel the vibes of my LFE and TST329 in the wheel when turning the wheel‘s FFB off now.

 

[Mr Latte]

This one, when braking takes place.

The Simtag demo rig only had springs/tactile in seat
It also as you may notice had no exciters, so from the tactile perspective, it was limited to the full potential. Even with this as a sampler, I am told feedback was positive.

 

[Mr Latte]

I can double the statement that this „poor/inferior“ copy works like a charm and isolation is much improved over my previous solution. I can hardly feel the vibes of my LFE and TST329 in the wheel when turning the wheel‘s FFB off now.

Yes but lads, how many springs and options did you guys test, and what other specialist materials are you using. It took a lot of trying different options to find what was the most optimal and more improvements are to come from what has already been shown....

Trust me, we can bring to market a solution that performs much better than TI300 isolators at less than half the cost.

Keep in mind, we also want to work on having a plate/bracket/isolator package, not just springs. There is more to this than just the springs/rubbers....

 

[metalnwood]

Yes but lads, how many springs and options did you guys test, and what other specialist materials are you using.
It took a lot of trying different options to find what was the most optimal and more improvements are to come from what has already been shown....

Trust me, we can bring to market a solution that performs much better than TI300 isolators at less than half the cost.

Keep in mind, we also want to work on having a plate/bracket/isolator package, not just springs. There is more to this than just the springs/rubbers....

I tried nothing because we were handed a starting point. Why reinvent the wheel when you can start with one and refine it?

To be honest, I am not personally interested in putting in a lot of effort. For the most part I am of the 80% return for 20% effort and not chasing the 20% extra for a lot more work if I am already quite satisfied.

I can say that I did machine my own feet out of a softer solid rubber on the mill to try it out while I waited for my order of rubber feet to arrive. When swapped I couldnt tell any obvious difference there but didnt do a/b's back and forwards.

Of course what I am doing is just for myself so all my plates/brackets are done custom for my rig.

 

[cnhoff]

Yes but lads, how many springs and options did you guys test, and what other specialist materials are you using.
It took a lot of trying different options to find what was the most optimal and more improvements are to come from what has already been shown....

Trust me, we can bring to market a solution that performs much better than TI300 isolators at less than half the cost.

Keep in mind, we also want to work on having a plate/bracket/isolator package, not just springs. There is more to this than just the springs/rubbers....

As I told you already in PM I do not doubt at all that your solution’s performance is superior, but i am experiencing the much improved performance on my rig RIGHT NOW…to be honest none of our rigs will stay in the current form forever anyway, that is part of the hobby, I guess.

For sure it gave me a good solution to experiment more with multiple transducers and effects.

BTW if anyone read the other thread about ringing and me not having any…correction, I have massive amounts of oscillation with my newly added TSTs at higher frequencies now, need to work on those

 

[Deleted member 197115]

The Simtag demo rig only had springs/tactile in seat

And it was the seat that was leaning back during hard braking. It's not excessive, to be honest, I was just hoping it can be just as solid as hard bolted installation, but it seems to be inline with what I get with 20mm rubber bobbins at least from the video, hard to tell for sure without trying them side by side.

 

[Mr Latte]

I tried nothing because we were handed a starting point. Why reinvent the wheel when you can start with one and refine it?

To be honest, I am not personally interested in putting in a lot of effort. For the most part I am of the 80% return for 20% effort and not chasing the 20% extra for a lot more work if I am already quite satisfied.

I can say that I did machine my own feet out of a softer solid rubber on the mill to try it out while I waited for my order of rubber feet to arrive. When swapped I couldnt tell any obvious difference there but didnt do a/b's back and forwards.

Of course what I am doing is just for myself so all my plates/brackets are done custom for my rig.

Your bolt is moving more than the spring is compressing.

Some customers will want a higher level of isolation/dampening as they have rigs in apartments and vibrations into floors is a major issue. So a solution for this is also being worked on.

With respect, it needs to be made clear that copies being made to "look" like what has so far been shown are not the same.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Your bolt is moving more than the spring is compressing.

Some customers will want a higher level of isolation/dampening as they have rigs in apartments and vibrations into floors is a major issue. So a solution for this is also being worked on.

With respect, it needs to be made clear that copies being made to "look" like what has so far been shown are not the same.

Do you have similar close up video of isolators under compression from hard braking?