Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[RCHeliguy]

Here is a very quick test of the vibrations leading from the BK-Concert to my Foot plate.

Test 1: Wine Glass and my feet on the foot plate, and me in seat
( I don't feel anything, but the wine glass shows more )
Test 2: Wine Glass on Foot plate alone, me in seat. ( a lot more vibration is shown )
Test 3: Empty rig without me to dampen anything out in the seat.

This was the test of the gear shift thunk which is one of the stronger effects that I use with the BK-Concert but it is only in the seat.

 

[FireWithin]

Here is a very quick test of the vibrations leading from the BK-Concert to my Foot plate.

Test 1: Wine Glass and my feet on the foot plate, and me in seat
( I don't feel anything, but the wine glass shows more )
Test 2: Wine Glass on Foot plate alone, me in seat. ( a lot more vibration is shown )
Test 3: Empty rig without me to dampen anything out in the seat.

This was the test of the gear shift thunk which is one of the stronger effects that I use with the BK-Concert but it is only in the seat.

You see me I like to feel the vibration into the pedals as well. (most effects)

 

[RCHeliguy]

You see me I like to feel the vibration into the pedals as well. (most effects)

I've got two transducers mounted under the pedal plate that were not being used for this test.
The whole point of this exercise was to see how well the BK-CT mounted to my seat was isolated from my foot plate.

Normally I have that effect going to the foot plate as well.

 

[FireWithin]

I've got two transducers mounted under the pedal plate that were not being used for this test.
The whole point of this exercise was to see how well the BK-CT mounted to my seat was isolated from my foot plate.

Normally I have that effect going to the foot plate as well.

Ok so you dont want to transfer effects from the BK-CT to any other place in the sense of optimizing the energy loss? Or really dont want to feel those effects?
Also, see you have a system to isolate betw footplate and pedal? By example when I stomp on the pedal for big braking my heel not touching the footpedal anymore but still want to feel the brake locking, how does that work on your side?

Cheers!

 

[RCHeliguy]

Ok so you dont want to transfer effects from the BK-CT to any other place in the sense of optimizing the energy loss? Or really dont want to feel those effects?
Also, see you have a system to isolate betw footplate and pedal? By example when I stomp on the pedal for big braking my heel not touching the footpedal anymore but still want to feel the brake locking, how does that work on your side?

Cheers!

I had a transducer on top of the inverted pedal mount just for that. I didn't like it. It was too much in my opinion. So call it a personal taste issue.

As it is I tend to have one foot on on the foot plate at all times since I don't tend to mash the brakes and throttle at the same time. The same is true when I have my foot off the plate depressing my clutch. Usually my throttle heel is resting on the plate.

I also have motion, DD, and audio telling me about the braking. As it is I feel like I get plenty of notice when my front or rear wheels are locking.

I try to catch it with the wheel slip effect that lets me know that I'm starting to slide before I lose traction enough to break loose. Dialing that in so that it doesn't bother you until you need to be aware of it is key. Unfortunately that varies by car. An M8 GTE stays planted while an MX-5 will slide easier and more controllably and can be pushed much further into wheel slip percentages

 

[Callsign BH]

For those that are shopping and thinking "Oh no! NX3000D is being discontinued, I'm screwed!" -- calm down, it's not. Parts Express, the one who broke the discontinued news to me yesterday just responded to my reply with this:

The name brand is no longer going to be available through Parts Express. Behringer has decided to only have two distributors for their brand. You'll be able to purchase product through Sweetwater or Amazon

 

[RCHeliguy]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

FYI, I picked up an NX4-6000 on Ebay for about $350 a while back.

I short circuited it and blew something up, sent it in for repair and they fixed it for about the same as the shipping cost.

I guess my point is that being out of warranty isn't a huge deal, since that was part of an earlier discussion. They'll still take care of you if something happens.

 

[Mr Latte]

I've never noticed feeling anything from the BK at the pedals, or from the pedals to the seat.

Use Spoiler? Not sure what you are asking.
I thought I had everything expanded out already.

Ah, what I meant was if uploading various images of Simhub settings place them within a "Spoiler" that way those not interested in this little conversation won't have to scroll through all the images, that are now on the other page.

Don't need videos etc all were doing is confirming what you have and how it is used where it is felt.
At a fairly quick glance over your settings and taking into account what configuration you have.

Thanks for sharing your settings for some deeper looking into them.
This without of course any audio analysis just looking at your settings taking into account your configuration.

Just my observations:

Parametric RPM = All channels (varied volume)
RPM = Shifter & Seat
*Same effect layers applied to different units, no specific usage of frequencies to individual units
* Very limited range of Hz used to represent the effect that would generate the most frequencies


Gearshift = All channels (except shifter?)
* Very simple usage of a single layer at 28Hz, no specific usage of frequencies to individual units


Road Vibration = All Channels
Two sets of layers for Front & Rear units
This currently the only layer for stereo effects being used

Stereo layers at front Aura
Mono combined at Rear for BK

*Appears front units are being given more range of frequency for the effect than the rear with larger BK using less low frequencies instead of what would be expected and it using same or even more.


Impacts = All channels (varied volume)
Two sets of layers
Effect being sent to all units.

*Spatialization is set to FRONT/REAR for "Front" which operates as dual mono
Aura units are installed as stereo so should use LEFT/RIGHT to maintain indvidual stereo feedback.

*Spatialization is set to FRONT/REAR for only "Back" operating on BK
*No major difference in frequencies being used

Wheelslip = Aura & BK
Two sets of different layers for front/rear units
*No major difference in frequencies being used

*Spatialization is set to FRONT/REAR for "Front" which operates as dual mono.
Aura units are installed as stereo so should use LEFT/RIGHT to maintain individual stereo feedback.

*Spatialization is set to CORNERS for "Rear" BK
Active via both Rear Left & Rear Right

*Using LEFT/RIGHT to match correctly set front wheels would bolster the front slip in seat as well as both rear channels activity.


Overview:
Limited stereo usage being applied with a restricted potential of maintaining stereo feedback. This partly due to the common installation approach using both L/R units on the same horizontal plate/contact surface enabling easy stereo crosstalk.

Instances of usage Per Channel
Aura Stereo = 5
Aura Shifter = 3
BK = 8

Usage of simplistic single layers with same frequencies going to BK/Aura in several effects
Often similar frequencies are used to represent different effects.
Only 1 operating stereo effect with Wheelslip needing fixed
Only White Noise is used for below 20Hz and below 10Hz with the BK
BK is the most used unit but appears as being underused regards its potential low-frequency abilities
No usage of G based effects for additional stereo sensations or acceleration/deceleration
Aura on the shifter is being underused but not actually used for shift effect

Recommendations
Possibly remove the Aura Pro as stereo is not being well used or implemented.
Reconfigure the installation to focus on mono with improved usage of large BK capabilities

Consider 1xTST unit as these are smoothest and one of the best for RPM detailing and harmonics
Consider 2nd BK for pedals replacing all Aura - Its energy will also be felt at the shifter

Seek to build effects that use individual layers and frequencies suited to each unit
Feel much better low bass extension and with higher detailing TST or multi-exciters will bring.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Thanks for the detailed feedback.
I'll look the software configuration suggestions in the short term.

 

[Mr Latte]

I will send you a gear effect to try on Concert

 

[Mr Latte]

Some old effects that were being worked on back in May last year
These use multilayers and seek to push the large BK a bit more.
It wasn't anything final as complete profiles as such but ongoing efforts at the time.

On DSP amps we push the lowest Hz even further by increasing the amplitude for those frequencies to really extend the low bass within certain effects.

I don't know how it feels on standard amps but you could increase a few notches the 30Hz EQ slider if your Simhub soundcard has one. Take care with the Simhub volume try it at 50% then increase it if needed.

Moved to below:

 

[RCHeliguy]

Now I have to learn how to use this effect.
I've not been using any EQ or DSP, just SimHub.

 

[Mr Latte]

The effects will still work just that you won't get the full potential with the lowest Hz from the BK.
These effects were developed with DSP settings that boosted the lowest Hz quite alot.

What you can do is re-adjust the individual layers volumes, increasing those with frequencies below 20Hz.
That will help boost them even though its not quite what we can do with the DSP it will help give an idea of what they were designed to feel like.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Is there a place that I can use that text file, or are you saying I need to do everything through SimHub configuration since that is all I'm using currently?

 

[Mr Latte]

Is there a place that I can use that text file, or are you saying I need to do everything through SimHub configuration since that is all I'm using currently?

Yes it is a profile but it needs the original extension re-applied.


To attach the Simhub profiles here to a post.
We need to change the original profiles extension using ".siprofile" rename it as a ".txt" extension.

Simple:
Download the file below with its ".txt" extension
Remove the ".txt" part rename it back instead with ".siprofile"
Now place it in the Simhub folder

You can then import it into your Simhub

With this profile is some previous test effects I was working on.

Here is a 5x layer (ABCDE) shift effect as an example of using multilayers, each layer adds to the combined feel generated. A user can increase certain Hz layers volume to vary the sensation more than a single layer effect will give. It adds more body/richness/character to the feel.


Notice, that it uses two layers with very low 6Hz.
Why two, well, in this case, it's because the second has delay applied with less volume to help the effect have a roll-off feeling. Each layer is not just randomly chosen frequencies but is also a harmonic match (multiple) of the fundamental 6Hz (lowest frequency) used for the effect.

Tweak it and compare it to your 28Hz shift

 

[FireWithin]

Yes it is a profile but it needs the original extension re-applied.


To attach the Simhub profiles here to a post.
We need to change the original profiles extension using ".siprofile" rename it as a ".txt" extension.

Simple:
Download the file below with its ".txt" extension
Remove the ".txt" part rename it back instead with ".siprofile"
Now place it in the Simhub folder

You can then import it into your Simhub

With this profile is some previous test effects I was working on.

Here is a 5x layer (ABCDE) shift effect as an example of using multilayers, each layer adds to the combined feel generated. A user can increase certain Hz layers volume to vary the sensation more than a single layer effect will give. It adds more body/richness/character to the feel.


Notice, that it uses two layers with very low 6Hz.
Why two, well, in this case, it's because the second has delay applied with less volume to help the effect have a roll-off feeling. Each layer is not just randomly chosen frequencies but is also a harmonic match (multiple) of the fundamental 6Hz (lowest frequency) used for the effect.

Tweak it and compare it to your 28Hz shift

It is not mentioned but I'm guessing these would need to be on one shaker at a time only to really feel all the nuances ? Personally, I'm limited to the number of shaker I have and uses multiple of effects to each one.
And let me tell you it is a real challenge to get it to feel good all at the same time !

Cheers!

 

[Mr Latte]

It is not mentioned but I'm guessing these would need to be on one shaker at a time only to really feel all the nuances ? Personally, I'm limited to the number of shaker I have and uses multiple of effects to each one.
And let me tell you it is a real challenge to get it to feel good all at the same time !

Cheers!

People can try or use them how they please but what do people find?

Give us an example of your current effects to what you are sending to the BK but you can count up how many effects and layers are being used.

Someone with a single unit will of course run into limitations. It depends on the effect and what effects are used as if you have effects that are not all active at similar times then you can apply more and avoid overlapping.

One of the things I did was look at ways to easier determine when different effects were active and it might surprise you in some instances. We also discover what effects work in tandem with FFB and which can be activated with the same occurrences. Yet if several are active with a set scenario/activity shouldnt they all have their own sensations? For example, how do we represent Impacts with G-Forces and Bumps and each brings its own character/sensation? Or which of these do we determine is less valuable in immersion to the user than others?

Settings play a big part too for an effects opertion.

Take for example an effect that operates via decelleration, when is it active?
Ah well only when you brake or coast off the throttle right?

Well no, as it depends on how sensitive the effect is configured. A wheel on grass, understeering and oversteering and even a gearchange can activate such based on the sensitivity/threshold in what triggers that effect. So often, on track scenarios you might not expect can cause other effects to also operate. This is another reason why we want effects to have their own felt character.

I used these to better monitor channel activity of different effects and add some control to bass for each unit. I have since upgraded with the higher end hardware Ive opted to now go with.

It is possible to have nicer detailing effects with multilayers and still get a good 3-4 effects from that unit to be clearly defined. The biggest culprit is RPM as it's fairly constant but then again some people maybe want that as their primary effect. Once you start wanting bumps, wheel slip, and other fundamental (positional feedback) effects which will also be very active then you start having issues in that the single unit will struggle to define individual effects.

Much of it is trial and error too.

Spoiler: BLAH BLAH & MORE BLAH

Based on my own on-going research for my own build.
I take a different approach than the traditional methods of using simple tones for effects with a common user having potentially 5,10 or more different effects being sent to that single transducer for it to output.

We have to decide, do we want more effects to be active on the unit or do we want fewer effects but these to have better feeling with increased detail on that unit? Of course, a single unit is limited but we can be smarter about this and it does not necessarily require having 6 or 8 exciters even though this brings its own benefits to how/where we place effects to different units.

It's a different thing to have multiple layers combine for the operation of a single effect and use fewer effects than it is to have a greater number of different effects applied to a single unit.

How/Why?

This is because in one instance the layers are combining to the operation of fewer effects and the quality/feeling of them being improved. We then can apply effects to this unit that are not active at the same time to restrict the overlapping of frequencies happening.

Dual Role Approach & Crossover Control
I keep saying it but few do this, as they treat each transducer with the mindset of being individual units.

Many large BK owners have DSP based amps, we have crossover control.
Let me ask, instead of dumping all effects onto one unit, by whatever preference of effects or layers they want to send to that unit. What if like a large speaker we split the output of all those effects/layers to be generated over no longer a single transducer but dual units!

The BK handles all the low frequencies and the (TST or Exciter) is used to handle all the mid-higher frequencies.
What do you get? Well you greatly reduce the load on each unit in what it has to now generate, you also define exactly what you want to operate for the crossover as to what Hz the large BK works up to and what Hz the (TST or Exciter) can take over. Additionally, you now have better control of what volume/gain you apply to low bass or mid/high bass via each individual unit. Of course for maximum control, DSP is recommended to then avoid any reverb issues and tune each unit's operation to the user's preference and rigs materials.

Two units doing exactly what they do best is better than one unit trying to do it all.
I noticed this back in 2012 comparing the large BK to the most expensive TST unit that I wanted the benefits of what both could achieve but neither could do on their own. The benefits of each were at opposite ends so I thought why not combine both to act like one? I termed this as "Dual Role".

This has been mentioned several times before but tell me dear readers, how many of you actually tried or tested such an approach yourselves?

TST & Exciters are unique in that they act also like speakers, so they generate much better detail in frequencies from around 60Hz well beyond 100Hz even though we will limit them to 200Hz or less as by that stage they are more audible than felt.

Also if you have more than one unit, you can install the 2nd unit so that its flow path is different to help cover a wider area of dispersion than having one installation point and this combines in the same region as the BK is to be felt.

Take a seat for example, what if the primary energy of the BK was in the bottom of the seat but the mid/high bass frequencies from TST/Exciters was focused on the sides or back. These are the types of things I played around with testing but who else has? Few I reckon.

For pedals what if the low bass flowed first through the foot deck and the TST/Exciters the vibes flowed through each pedal stem? Both of course combining but giving better flow perhaps? Better ability to control midbass reverb/tingle and achieve in pedals, both controlled low bass but also the users defined amount of detail in the pedal. Who has tried this approach?

It doesn't matter what Hz are in effects being output from the soundcards channel, as the crossover on the amp will only allow to each unit what we determine. So this is not the same thing as trying to send certain effects layers with certain frequencies via the output mixer on Simhub eg: 1x low bass layer to a BK and 1x mid-bass layer to a TST/exciter. That alone does not fully control what each unit will generate but this approach of "Dual Role" using DSP based crossover via the amp does.

I would estimate most owners of BK/Exciter combos are not using this approach but treating each unit as its own individual thing. We can use some exciters or TST for this purpose or to use them for specific effects roles to specific body regions. Why not both approaches? Still, lots of new work and ideas to be further tried and tested to determine what works best or suits individual users.

Tactile can be taken further than most are experiencing with it and using the common methods, yeah no question. It just depends on how far people want or are willing to try new approaches or be more creative with it .

 

[FireWithin]

People can try or use them how they please but what do people find?

Give us an example of your current effects to what you are sending to the BK but you can count up how many effects and layers are being used.

Someone with a single unit will of course run into limitations. It depends on the effect and what effects are used as if you have effects that are not all active at similar times then you can apply more and avoid overlapping.

One of the things I did was look at ways to easier determine when different effects were active and it might surprise you in some instances. We also discover what effects work in tandem with FFB and which can be activated with the same occurrences. Yet if several are active with a set scenario/activity shouldnt they all have their own sensations? For example, how do we represent Impacts with G-Forces and Bumps and each brings its own character/sensation? Or which of these do we determine is less valuable in immersion to the user than others?

Settings play a big part too for an effects opertion.

Take for example an effect that operates via decelleration, when is it active?
Ah well only when you brake or coast off the throttle right?

Well no, as it depends on how sensitive the effect is configured. A wheel on grass, understeering and oversteering and even a gearchange can activate such based on the sensitivity/threshold in what triggers that effect. So often, on track scenarios you might not expect can cause other effects to also operate. This is another reason why we want effects to have their own felt character.

I used these to better monitor channel activity of different effects and add some control to bass for each unit. I have since upgraded with the higher end hardware Ive opted to now go with.

It is possible to have nicer detailing effects with multilayers and still get a good 3-4 effects from that unit to be clearly defined. The biggest culprit is RPM as it's fairly constant but then again some people maybe want that as their primary effect. Once you start wanting bumps, wheel slip, and other fundamental (positional feedback) effects which will also be very active then you start having issues in that the single unit will struggle to define individual effects.

Much of it is trial and error too.

Spoiler: BLAH BLAH & MORE BLAH

Based on my own on-going research for my own build.
I take a different approach than the traditional methods of using simple tones for effects with a common user having potentially 5,10 or more different effects being sent to that single transducer for it to output.

We have to decide, do we want more effects to be active on the unit or do we want fewer effects but these to have better feeling with increased detail on that unit? Of course, a single unit is limited but we can be smarter about this and it does not necessarily require having 6 or 8 exciters even though this brings its own benefits to how/where we place effects to different units.

It's a different thing to have multiple layers combine for the operation of a single effect and use fewer effects than it is to have a greater number of different effects applied to a single unit.

How/Why?

This is because in one instance the layers are combining to the operation of fewer effects and the quality/feeling of them being improved. We then can apply effects to this unit that are not active at the same time to restrict the overlapping of frequencies happening.

Dual Role Approach & Crossover Control
I keep saying it but few do this, as they treat each transducer with the mindset of being individual units.

Many large BK owners have DSP based amps, we have crossover control.
Let me ask, instead of dumping all effects onto one unit, by whatever preference of effects or layers they want to send to that unit. What if like a large speaker we split the output of all those effects/layers to be generated over no longer a single transducer but dual units!

The BK handles all the low frequencies and the (TST or Exciter) is used to handle all the mid-higher frequencies.
What do you get? Well you greatly reduce the load on each unit in what it has to now generate, you also define exactly what you want to operate for the crossover as to what Hz the large BK works up to and what Hz the (TST or Exciter) can take over. Additionally, you now have better control of what volume/gain you apply to low bass or mid/high bass via each individual unit. Of course for maximum control, DSP is recommended to then avoid any reverb issues and tune each unit's operation to the user's preference and rigs materials.

Two units doing exactly what they do best is better than one unit trying to do it all.
I noticed this back in 2012 comparing the large BK to the most expensive TST unit that I wanted the benefits of what both could achieve but neither could do on their own. The benefits of each were at opposite ends so I thought why not combine both to act like one? I termed this as "Dual Role".

This has been mentioned several times before but tell me dear readers, how many of you actually tried or tested such an approach yourselves?

TST & Exciters are unique in that they act also like speakers, so they generate much better detail in frequencies from around 60Hz well beyond 100Hz even though we will limit them to 200Hz or less as by that stage they are more audible than felt.

Also if you have more than one unit, you can install the 2nd unit so that its flow path is different to help cover a wider area of dispersion than having one installation point and this combines in the same region as the BK is to be felt.

Take a seat for example, what if the primary energy of the BK was in the bottom of the seat but the mid/high bass frequencies from TST/Exciters was focused on the sides or back. These are the types of things I played around with testing but who else has? Few I reckon.

For pedals what if the low bass flowed first through the foot deck and the TST/Exciters the vibes flowed through each pedal stem? Both of course combining but giving better flow perhaps? Better ability to control midbass reverb/tingle and achieve in pedals, both controlled low bass but also the users defined amount of detail in the pedal. Who has tried this approach?

It doesn't matter what Hz are in effects being output from the soundcards channel, as the crossover on the amp will only allow to each unit what we determine. So this is not the same thing as trying to send certain effects layers with certain frequencies via the output mixer on Simhub eg: 1x low bass layer to a BK and 1x mid-bass layer to a TST/exciter. That alone does not fully control what each unit will generate but this approach of "Dual Role" using DSP based crossover via the amp does.

I would estimate most owners of BK/Exciter combos are not using this approach but treating each unit as its own individual thing. We can use some exciters or TST for this purpose or to use them for specific effects roles to specific body regions. Why not both approaches? Still, lots of new work and ideas to be further tried and tested to determine what works best or suits individual users.

Tactile can be taken further than most are experiencing with it and using the common methods, yeah no question. It just depends on how far people want or are willing to try new approaches or be more creative with it .

Thanks for the reply, lot of food for thoughts
Im curious about monitoring channels tho, any software we can use to do that?

Cheers!

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for the reply, lot of food for thoughts
Im curious about monitoring channels tho, any software we can use to do that?

Cheers!

Depends if you meant to monitor channel activity as the HA6000 does that well, or to monitor frequencies?
Simhub software itself shows primitive but live responses for effects but not in a frequency/dB based manner

I won't go into it again as it will not appeal to most readers and various times it was covered in this thread....

You can monitor 1-2 channels at a time rather cheaply @(£50-£100) with low latency using a stereo audio interface.
To be able to monitor 4-8 or more channels, then it starts getting expensive needing dedicated hardware and pro audio software. Next, you then need a DAW or monitoring-based software plugins that connect with the hardware.
Some of these can be free or cheap but the best aint.

I've spent 1-2 years on/off gradually learning how to better apply this and with some creative ideas regards how to install or use different transducers to go beyond the common tactile approach. The new hardware I purchased will be one of the components that will let me now go further.

In reference to monitoring frequencies, this might be worth reading and see the videos that were shared.

 

[coote66]

So, testing is underway for my Yamaha AVR and Dayton pucks (wee babies compared to many in here, but budgets are budgets)

I've got windows in quadrascopic mode. Have tried simhub in corners and custom channel modes.

I can test fire any individual shaker from the software without issue, and yet in game all effects seem to play over all channels.

I've turned TC off and cranked the brske bias stupidly far forwards so I can easily spin rears and lock fronts.

Watching the outputs live, I can see that the same signal is making it to fronts and rears (with very little variation) despite having those effects set to corner mode. I've even ticked the "use separate output channels settings" option, but I've no idea what that is meant to do, and it doesn't appear to change anything.

I expected to need to spend a lot of time tuning gains, frequencies, thresholds etc, but this feels like unnecessary work.