Season 5 Race 9 Valencia Street - Drivers meeting

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Since you already have confirmed to Valter that you (David) are not easily offended, I'll take my chances as well Also, i understand that you interpret the situation differently than me, I totally respect that you do not wish to allow any form for cutting, and because I mentioned t1 at Hockenheim you probably think I am willing to allow much more than I really am. T1 at Hockenheim is the extreme of this discussion and should probably never have been mentioned because it overclouds the much more important spots and places. Let us rather focus on the places where one theoretically can cut/run wide with a few cm at best, or where there are white lines on the track that does not excist on the real track.

why all of a sudden after 2 or 3 seasons of the rules are we suddenly questioning each track?

Mainly because I have learned that a total b/w interpetation of this rule is not optimal when making the league run at minimal admin work. As soon as a rule does not make good sense or is open for interpretion it leads to deviation in behavior -> work.

afterall we all managed it for however many seasons weve had the rule.

Until now most have probably been "blessed with ignorence", but if one study replays from earlier seasons one will soon learn that there are places where drivers "interpret" the rules differently. But since reviewing for cuts and wides is redicolously time consuming nobody are the wiser and we are all happy.

cmon this is getting to be a joke, we either stay within the white lines or we dont its simple,

I do not agree with you here. Valencia Street is according to the author a scrap-track, in other words, it is probably not 100% accurate. The white lines we now are discussing does not excist in the real track, and that I can understand very well, because they do not make sense at all.

We have the choice between using the walls as the edge of the track (as it is on the RL track) or the artificial white lines that the author of the track have placed there, possibly by chance. The walls are an absolute limit while the white line very well might lead to unforseen situations, eg during traffic, overtaking etc.

that was hockenheim too that id settled into a nice rythum and line then for the bar to be moved at the last minute by pandering to the folk who like to run wide or cut

This sounds a bit like propaganistic rhetoric to me This was the outcome of the discussion:

[FONT=&quot]There are two spots where one might gain from running wide on this track, namely at the exit of turn one and between the second last and last turn. Make sure you stay on the right side of the white line, and if you should run wide, make sure you do not benefit from it.

There is no need to report cuts and wides, I trust that the sportsmanship and gentleman attitude among our drivers is sufficient. [/FONT]

If you had to alter your racing line at all I would very much like to know where. I understand that you disliked the timing of the discussion itself, which I can understand, but I believe I told you that the outcome of the discussion did not need to be implemented until after the season, I am just trying to get as much done as soon as possible.

 

[David Turnbull]

holy sheet!

this is what waking up in a bad mood causes looool

yeah i went a bit over the score on what i said earlier, im sorry to everyone for that.

hockenheim i did have to alter my driving just to keep any sort of pace up with the other guys, during the race i used the same advantages that others did as the saying goes if you cant beat them, join them (i had to adjust taking t1 in a diffrent way 1 gear higher than i was used to for instance).

its obvious everyone has their own ideas about this sorta thing, i'll distance myself from the discussion as its clear everyone knows what my take on it is and i wouldnt like to start any arguements over just my opinion, as always ill be happy to go with whatever the race director decides,ive hung about 4 seasons and each gets better so im not about to throw the toys out the pram just because theres 1 rule i dont like.

David

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

holy sheet!

this is what waking up in a bad mood causes looool

yeah i went a bit over the score on what i said earlier, im sorry to everyone for that.

hockenheim i did have to alter my driving just to keep any sort of pace up with the other guys, during the race i used the same advantages that others did as the saying goes if you cant beat them, join them (i had to adjust taking t1 in a diffrent way 1 gear higher than i was used to for instance).

its obvious everyone has their own ideas about this sorta thing, i'll distance myself from the discussion as its clear everyone knows what my take on it is and i wouldnt like to start any arguements over just my opinion, as always ill be happy to go with whatever the race director decides,ive hung about 4 seasons and each gets better so im not about to throw the toys out the pram just because theres 1 rule i dont like.

David

I wasn't "shouting", I just tried to use the opportunity to make everybody understand why it does not make sense to disallow certain things. I wasn't successful For me it makes perfect sense, but then again I am sitting on all the information, so it is easier for me to see.

Have you ever wondered why we are allowed to speed in the pit lane in qualify? The answer is that allowing it = 0 work for the admins. If it was forbidden though, I would have the choice between saying "I trust everybody will respect the speed limit" or alternatively spending hours investigating something that does not mean much.

The situation is very similar to this issue, only difference is that with the pit speed in qual I luckily picked the right solution from the start. The running wide was never well enough specified. I bet that if you check the replay of our race at Montreal you will see a lot of guys just running a cm or two wide at the "Wall of Champions". Or our last race here at Valencia Street (season 1).

I will not spend time on stuff that in my eyes are very unimportant (and it is compared to race ending incidents), after all I am working towards becomming a full time driver Thus there will never be any consequences for cutting and running wide. The gentleman approach should be sufficiant to keep ourself in check on the clear areas. However, I question that all drivers autmatically will respect the more "unnatural track boundaries" to the same degree, and looking at the bigger picture, I see no valid reason how we would benifit from being 100% b/w in this area.

hockenheim i did have to alter my driving just to keep any sort of pace up with the other guys, during the race i used the same advantages that others did as the saying goes if you cant beat them, join them (i had to adjust taking t1 in a diffrent way 1 gear higher than i was used to for instance).

I do not understand completely... did the faster guys run wide and you did the same to keep up with them? Or are you just saying that you learned to take it in a faster legal way to stay competitive?

[FONT=&quot]Sorry if you feel I am haresing you, that is not my intention at all.[/FONT] I am still wearing a smile and eagerly trying to be understood

 

[David Turnbull]

i know you werent shouting m8, i was talking about myself when i said woke up in a bad mood lol

anyhoo, i dont agree with that it was never well enough specified,its always been well enough specified, white lines=stay within, but i totally understand about the having to check it all that would be really tedious work and not something id like to do myself.

the white line rule used to be an offence worth penalties as i had myself for.......? was it monza? couldve been, obviously this has been relaxed to the point where we police ourselves and trust each other that we will do the gentlemanly thing i.e if you do cut/wide you dont use it to an advantage, but the white line rule should still apply to every corner or straight on every track, remember monza again in this instance, wasnt it agreed that 2 wheels had to be on the track passing the pit lane as the run off wasnt part of the track which people used because it was quicker and less bumpy, i feel this is what it comes down to, theres no safety or any other reason for not being able to stay within the white lines, its only for the fastest time possible folk try it, you can still push to the limits by staying within the lines, maybe your a tenth or 2 slower but what the hell, staying within the rules is what should matter.

but like i said, ill go with whatever is decided, its no huge deal, im making more out of it that really matters but weve had the rules so long i even adhere to it on public servers lol

 

[Valerio Vinassa]

Hi Guys,
pay attention the kurbs are a bit high I finished my Practice Race in FPPS here,I was trying stay on track before the white line eheheheeh I brake but slip with car and so.....no more contact with wheels and burnt engine for jump out.

 

[Reik Major]

Hy folks!

I'm still at work but I can't hold off to throw in my thoughts. This time I promise I won't overdo like I did at the hockenheim debate.

First of all I completely agree with Nicos statement, not considering that he's the admin but just for the statement itself.

David I hope you stay here for much more seasons as this is also my goal and you're a nice guy to race against! Hope you don't feel like the black sheep here, even though you're just fighting for the right thing - accepting the rules strictly. I understand your point to say, the stricter the rules, the bigger the chance we all drive with in the same boarders. Btw I like it the same in every challenge to fight on level as fair as it could be.

But the point is that there are places where the white lines realy cross the "natural" racing line (most likely on scratch made city circuites!) and it would be more stressing to concentrate on not breaking the rules but on driving itself.

I agree that Hockenheim was the wrong track to discuss this, because it didn't have such places. But I know that at the one left hander at singapore we had no discussion about crossing the "senceless" white line just by following the normal racing line.

That's why I don't agree with the comparison of the white line at Monza's s/f straight and some white lines on the "weaving straights" at Valencia. Teh one at Monza is also there in reality and it's far away from the natural racing line. But some lines next to Valencias walls are just there, because the author wanted them to be there and they cross the natural racing line.

Finally I'll behave as allways and like everyone does here - as fair as possible. Just review the Hockenheim replay and you'll see that everyone did the same great job to keep it fair and to make the job as easy as it could be for Nico, because we are nothing without his enthusiastic work!

A personal note to David: Please allways remember my smile on the avatar, because this is my general mood, no matter if discussing or racing. My girl sometimes really hates me for being that happy allready at 6 o clock in the morning :tongue:

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I have a lot to learn from Reik when it comes to writing posts. Reading my own post I can see how I sound "way too aggressive". I tend to get a bit carried away, but as Reik, I always have a smile on my face, even though it might not shine through in my posts.

I only have an interest of making the rules as natural and flowing as possible, not to prove David wrong. To put it this way, i would rather respect the white lines at Valencia than to lose David as a collegue on the race track

 

[David Turnbull]

no way would i consider leaving presto due to this or any other minor problem, we are all adult enough to get on with it even if theres something we dont like, the good far outweigh the bad in my eyes when comes to presto so i wont be going anywhere, plus some healthy discussion never harmed anyone, like Nico feels (although i dont agree with him about his own posts they usually sound very fair and informative) i think i come over way too aggressive in typing, ill try tone it down a bit and only make points relevant to our discussion and not my own personal mood at the time lol sorry again guys

 

[Reik Major]

I have a lot to learn from Reik when it comes to writing posts. Reading my own post I can see how I sound "way too aggressive"...

Ouch, please stop this charming attack! (wait... I thought twice. Just go on with it if you feel like that :wink

Honestly I think I'm sounding like I want to tell everyone how things should be like. Of course I don't want to...

Don't forget the guys, who are allways the same comitted as we are but maybe don't have the same time to post or aren't so good in english. But on track they show that they're a part of us!

 

[Jim Hawley]

I agree with all thats been said above, my view is stay within the lines as the rules suggest.... but.. where there is a pointless line a long way from a wall on a slightly bendy straight like there are here or like the one at Singapor, maybe we should be ignoring those,

I also thought the wall of champions line at Mont should have been discounted as it felt more natural and exciting to copy real life and go upto within an inch of it, concrete walls are very good at policing the track boundries, but the decision was made so I respected it


Jim

 

[Peter Marshall]

On another note, I noticed tonight in the FPPS race that the pit lane speed is 80 km/hr. It's was a little tight turning into the 1st garage, but no problem.

On lap 36 I had a mechanical brake failure and went off and into the tyre wall at turn 1. My brake duct was set to 3. Thinking about setting it to 5 now.

 

[Anthony Ishak]

I had my brake duct on 2 and same like Peter on lap 39 i went strait into tbe wall at t1 , the brake temperature was over 2000 on the telemetry ...

 

[Valerio Vinassa]

NICE tip guys thanks:good:

PS. I ran saturday with FPPS but finished race on lap 23 on curb so I dont found this problem

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Remember though, that failiures are turned on at the Pacific servers and off at the Euro servers. If this means that the brakes can over-cook or not on Euro server I do not know, but it is obvious they can on Pacific

 

[Peter Marshall]

Remember though, that failiures are turned on at the Pacific servers and off at the Euro servers. If this means that the brakes can over-cook or not on Euro server I do not know, but it is obvious they can on Pacific

Happy to read that Nico, thank you.

I was a little concerned; I saw 19% engine health [in red MoTeC XD] during the Hockenheim practice session last league race. This made me wonder if Mechanical Failures was on for us as well.

Still, the brakes must be taking a pounding over a race distance around Valencia.

 

[Graham Healey]

Regarding white lines. I have conditioned myself to treat white lines according to the "two wheels on the track" rule. After the discussion here I was interested to see what all the fuss was about. I had to do a lot of laps before I push myself over the white lines anywhere - the car just didn't want to go there - it wasn't natural. In the end I was able to "force" myself out there. As I learnt the track better I even found some places where I felt like I understood that some would want to go up to the wall at that point. But I still felt like a "bad boy" doing it.

I can understand that some want to go there and think "why not?". I can understand that Nico doesn't want to police it.

My thought is that I have been driving in sim-clubs that stress the two wheels on the track rule. I have now proven to myself that it now comes natural to me. My practice session was in effect a session for "unlearning" the rule. Its like you finally give up smoking and someone persuades you to smoke the occaisional one. Is that really where we want to go? Will it help us develop to the point where no policing is necessary?

Another thing is I have no idea at this point where the thinking is that it is ok to go over the line and where it isnt. There are just too many places at Valencia where you can go over the line. If we accept that it is ok somewhere I think it is unfair to expect everyone to understand exactly where it is and where it isnt. Except possibly if there is only ONE spot where it is allowed.

Regarding Nico's job policing white lines I have this suggestion. If we have a clear cut rule not to cross the lines then all will have no trouble knowing what is expected of them. I suggest that the race director does not look for transgressions. However if any driver sees another driver who looks like he is purposely going over the lines then the observing driver should look at the replay to see if there is reason to look further into the case. He then puts that in his report to the race director. The race director investigates and if he sees the driver cutting on 5 consecutive laps or 10 or more different laps the driver gets DQ'ed. The penalty is harsh because the driver knows what is expected and is using the fact that it isnt an incident between drivers and therefore hard to police to try to get away with it.

Oh and regarding the inaccurracy of the track:

Most of the tracks we drive are not this years track. Tracks are changing all the time. We dont care too much about it. Most tracks are also inaccurate in one way or another. We dont care too much about that either. Maybe next year Valencia will have those white lines. Who knows. Who cares. Lets drive with what we have.

My two cents as they say in America.

 

[Peter Marshall]

Good points and once again well written Graham.



Thank you for expressing and sharing your viewpoint. I'll add a dime to Graham's 2 cents.

 

[Reik Major]

Very good point Graham!

I tell you that this debate is a little over done.

At valencia it is no problem to stay within the lines but also being fast then. It's only meant that no one must be afraid to be called a bad boy if he crosses a white line on those weaving straights, because there isn't realy a time gain.

I'll stay within the lines - it's no problem. My so far PB (1:30:6xx) is a clean one and i'll post it soon with the setup in the setup thread...

 

[Valter Ostman]

Remember to use a SUV type of ride height if you are afraid you will incidentally cut or go wide in any way

 

[Reik Major]

yeah, I'm also afraid of those killer curbs