Rig recommendations for racing and flight sim

[dj420]

Hi guys,

Recent lurker and first time poster here. I’m in Australia and am progressing through my private pilot licence at the moment. I am using Xplane and PilotEdge for radio comms and instrument awareness. Also a long time gamer who absolutely loves racing titles.

I discovered the forum when looking at setups for race/flight sims. I am looking at building up a rig that would be able to handle both racing and flight sims.

Does anyone use their rig for race and flight? It doesn’t seem to be a topic that is covered a lot, so figured I would ask the question.

Obviously the depth or degree of movement is not as critical for racing titles, but for flight that additional depth on actuators is going to be very beneficial.

I was considering a ProSimu 1000 with 3/4 DOF as they have a decent amount of depth on the actuators. There may be much better solutions though that I have not considered.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[dj420]

So are you saying use the PT actuators for a diy build? Or is that a model for purchase? Family business is fabrication so I can order all the aluminium profiles through there and do my own 80/20 rig setup.

Cheers

 

[pt-actuator]

So are you saying use the PT actuators for a diy build? Or is that a model for purchase? Family business is fabrication so I can order all the aluminium profiles through there and do my own 80/20 rig setup.

Cheers

Hi， buddy, this is Shao from PT-Actuator, and , we can suit your 8040/8020 aluminum profiles, sorry I am not pushing on you to buy actautors from us, but, anyway,we have all the solutions, and of course, it's a good model for purchase.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I just spent some much needed time adjusting the stick and pedal position and then backing off the pitch and roll effects with the NLRv3 software I even tweaked the tactile effects for the engines and cannons etc.. I also configured a few DCS controls into my DSD button box.

The only bad thing is that I had to push my driving pedals an inch or so off the back to get the flight pedals where they needed to be. I also have my flight pedals mounted on the inside of the Frame sides, so my setup would conflict with the new P1-X pedal system which while more flexible will be harder adjust for different people since you have to secure it underneath the pedals rather than on the outside of them. Not only that but I keep the wheel base power supply under there with other wiring.

You know it really wasn't that bad. The transition angle is configurable for when it stops during a barrel roll or loop. Backing of the pitch and roll the same percentage made the relative motion in VR believable. First I backed off the pitch so I wasn't lifting off the pedals when I pitched up. That also kept pitching forward from interfering. In the a little goes a long way category, it was actually better than I remembered. I really should have stuck with it longer.

I flew the Huey, then the P51D and then the F15C. The Huey was completely believable, the others were good too.

Of course after getting DCS happy I had to spend a little time in Eve Valkyrie fun stuff, but was only playing against AI's.

 

[dj420]

I just spent some much needed time adjusting the stick and pedal position and then backing off the pitch and roll effects with the NLRv3 software I even tweaked the tactile effects for the engines and cannons etc.. I also configured a few DCS controls into my DSD button box.

The only bad thing is that I had to push my driving pedals an inch or so off the back to get the flight pedals where they needed to be. I also have my flight pedals mounted on the inside of the Frame sides, so my setup would conflict with the new P1-X pedal system which while more flexible will be harder adjust for different people since you have to secure it underneath the pedals rather than on the outside of them. Not only that but I keep the wheel base power supply under there with other wiring.

You know it really wasn't that bad. The transition angle is configurable for when it stops during a barrel roll or loop. Backing of the pitch and roll the same percentage made the relative motion in VR believable. First I backed off the pitch so I wasn't lifting off the pedals when I pitched up. That also kept pitching forward from interfering. In the a little goes a long way category, it was actually better than I remembered. I really should have stuck with it longer.

I flew the Huey, then the P51D and then the F15C. The Huey was completely believable, the others were good too.

Of course after getting DCS happy I had to spend a little time in Eve Valkyrie fun stuff, but was only playing against AI's.

View attachment 315573

Does your rig setup have both chassis mover and the seat mover RCHeliguy? Looks like great setup there!

 

[RCHeliguy]

Does your rig setup have both chassis mover and the seat mover RCHeliguy? Looks like great setup there!

I just have a seat mover. So far it has been a no fuss operation. I just needed to move my stick out a bit and my pedals out a bit further and turn down both the amount of pitch and roll and the ratio of pitch and roll. I really haven't invested as much time in the flight aspect of my rig as the driving side and it showed, but with a little effort it works pretty well.

For the helicopter I still split the throttle halves between throttle and collective. I don't fly helicopters enough to to get a proper collective stick with twist throttle, but I know exactly where I would connect it if I did

I'm not claiming it is the best motion system out there, just that it is very simple and works well. I think it works very well for driving and "well enough" for flying. A 4 or 6 DOF system would still have arbitrary limits when you do a barrel roll or a loop, but it would be able to give you a sudden drop even if it is short and would be able to give you more roll and pitch since you wouldn't have to worry about motion relative to your foot pedals.

In an A/B test I'm sure the difference would be very noticeable. The real question is whether in VR once you get used to a given system if it would feel fine by itself. That's a question I can't answer for you. I know that some people are not happy with the seat movers because they are not completely rigid and there is a bit of flex around the pivot point. It doesn't bother me in the least, but I know another guy on this forum who considered that a deal breaker and he currently has an SFX-100 system with GS-5 seat. His review is here. https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/hoihmans-gs-5-review.166874/

Unfortunately there are many ways to skin this cat and the solutions tend to reflect the wallet of the owner and/or how large a priority in life a sim rig is for that person.

 

[pt-actuator]

J

For flight sim, 6dof is the best you can go.
Go with 6 PT actuators, I believe the model is pt25. You probably can get all 6 actuators and servos and controllers under $7k.

[/QUOTE

My recommendation:

3 PT actuators for chassis mover (~$3k) runs with SimTool SW, plus
SimXperisence seat mover on top (2 SCN5 actuators kit < $2k) runs SC4 SW

DD wheel, petals, 8020 profile frames...,~$3k ?

Hi,Joe, where are you from ? can you send me a email ? shao@pt-actuator.com

 

[Joe Extraknow]

@pt-actuator

Hi Shao: I am from US. I was thinking to contact you to get the 3 actuators from you but I changed my mind. It would be just too much work for me to rebuild the rig again.

I have two SCN6 actuators mounted at the front for chassis mover and one under the chassis for traction loss. On top, I have added a seat mover with two SCN5 actuators from Simxperience. The rig works well for me now. If I ever think of building a flight sim in the future, I will definitely email you. Your 6DoF setup seems attractive.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

Thanks for the suggestions RCHeliguy and Joe. There is a lot to think about, it’s shows it’s pretty obvious that the setups require quite different movement.

I can see why you want the 6DOF for flight sim. But then it looks like too much movement in a 6DOF for racing, I assume different profiles in the motion software would allow you keep the rig more stationary for racing.

I’m having a look at your other thread now RCHeliguy. Cheers

6DOF platforms can do both flight and car racing just fine!

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm sorry to say that when I see that video, all I see are red flags and deal breakers.

It's WAY too tall to be practical. When something requires a ladder to get in, sorry that is a no go.
Forgetting the fact that my wife would have a fit if I brought something that large into the house, there is no way I would even want something like that in my house even if I were a bachelor.

The other videos must have had the ladders conveniently removed so this didn't dawn on me.

FYI, I asked my wife to look at that video for a second and all she did was laugh.

I'm sure it could be very impressive with the right software support, but the form factor of that beast takes it way outside my comfort zone.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

I'm sorry to say that when I see that video, all I see are red flags and deal breakers.

It's WAY too tall to be practical. When something requires a ladder to get in, sorry that is a no go.
Forgetting the fact that my wife would have a fit if I brought something that large into the house, there is no way I would even want something like that in my house even if I were a bachelor.

The other videos must have had the ladders removed.

This is because the guy in the video used 400mm stroke actuators, on 300mm 6DOF plans... The base and top must be wider to lower the height:

Or build it with recessed cockpit:

 

[RCHeliguy]

The recessed cockpit helps, but even that looks like it would require stairs and is huge overall. I'm sure it is capable of great effects, but the inconvenience factor and sheer bulk make it something I would never consider.

All I can think of is what if I need to answer the door, or use the bathroom, or get a drink. I envision jumping down from one these and then having to bring a ladder over that someone else might have to pull away so as not to impede motion.

I'd also be a lot less likely to want to have as many people over to try it out. I wouldn't feel comfortable putting any of my friends children on it either.

I would have to go for a simple 3" travel 4 DOF system that I can step right into any day of the week for a chassis mover.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

The recessed cockpit helps, but even that looks like it would require stairs and is huge overall. I'm sure it is capable of great effects, but the inconvenience factor and sheer bulk make it something I would never consider.

All I can think of is what if I need to answer the door, or use the bathroom, or get a drink. I envision jumping down from one these and then having to bring a ladder over that someone else might have to pull away so as not to impede motion.

I'd also be a lot less likely to want to have as many people over to try it out. I wouldn't feel comfortable putting any of my friends children on it either.

I would have to go for a simple 3" travel 4 DOF system that I can step right into any day of the week for a chassis mover.

I understand. 6DOF needs more space... unless you make it really small... like this:

 

[RCHeliguy]

Even with that system, if you had a full racing cockpit bolted up to it, you would still need a ladder to get into your seat.

FWIW, I think you've done some cool stuff and I've followed you on Discord, I just don't consider these systems practical or something most people would ever want to live with.

There is a point of diminishing returns with motion. You need only so much to trick your brain in VR to get immersion. After that you are past the point of overkill. Without full 360 degree rotation flight can not be modeled properly, but a lot less is necessary to get enough to get things to feel right. Having more than that doesn't actually buy you much.

I've flown in fully gimballed flight simulators and THAT is the holy grail for flight. I'm using a simple seat mover right now and it is "enough" in VR to put you there. The problem is that sometimes more isn't better, it's just more.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

Even with that system, if you had a full racing cockpit bolted up to it, you would still need a ladder to get into your seat.

FWIW, I think you've done some cool stuff and I've followed you on Discord, I just don't consider these systems practical or something most people would ever want to live with.

There is a point of diminishing returns with motion. You need only so much to trick your brain in VR to get immersion. After that you are past the point of overkill. Without full 360 degree rotation flight can not be modeled properly, but a lot less is necessary to get enough to get things to feel right. Having more than that doesn't actually buy you much.

I've flown in fully gimballed flight simulators and THAT is the holy grail for flight. I'm using a simple seat mover right now and it is "enough" in VR to put you there. The problem is that sometimes more isn't better, it's just more.

Not even like this????

 

[dud]

I actually emailed back and forth with Heusinkveld about making the gas and clutch pedals more friendly to using them for helicopter simming. In case you aren't familiar with it, it is very important to have smooth pedals with proper resistance and controllability for helicopters, much more so than for fixed wing planes. They legitimately convinced me not much can be done, even a defined center-point on the pedals would be a major undertaking.

For fixed wing I actually scaled back from using a X45 and the CH pedals to a twist-for-pedals joystick, because that frees up my left hand for the keyboard, and sometimes mouse. I find that I need a hand free for "unrealistic" button pressing and mousing control of a 3D cockpit because no controller hardware matches what I need in a fighter plane closely enough. Loss of rudder controllability kinda sucks, but I am not flying helicopters right now.

I did not find a way to reuse parts of my racing hardware for any flightsimming.

The closest is that I am starting to use MIDI controllers for the left hand, which will probably end up being used in both kinds of games.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Correct. I love my Crosswind flight pedals and flight controls. Reusing high end driving pedals makes no sense.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Not even like this????

That's small enough, but can you get better actuators on that form factor?

For some of us a motion system would end up needing to move something like my rig below (minus the NLRv3).

Which is why the 4 DOF form factor works so well. 6 DOF is nice in theory, but I haven't seen anything that wouldn't require digging a pit in the middle of the floor to make properly accessible.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

That's small enough, but can you get better actuators on that form factor?

For some of us a motion system would end up needing to move something like my rig below (minus the NLRv3).

Which is why the 4 DOF form factor works so well. 6 DOF is nice in theory, but I haven't seen anything that wouldn't require digging a pit in the middle of the floor to make properly accessible.

View attachment 315783

You can use gear reducers on AASD-15A servos for that small form 6DOF:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32962968884.html (100:1 is fast enough with 3000RPM servos)

Needless to say it will require custom cockpit like on the video to have clearances for the arm/rod actuators...

But if you really want to keep your existing cockpit, you may just do the 4 actuators and perhaps one extra for traction loss or substitute for partial yaw for flight:

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just so there is no confusion. I didn't start this thread and I'm not in the market for a new motion system. I'm very happy with my NLRv3 right now.

One of my contraints is for my chassis mobility. I have to easily set my rig up and take it down.
This video that is under 2 minutes of real time shows how long it takes for me to both setup and tear down my chassis. This is critical for me.

Things that help make this a quick process include using a USB hub on the rig and using an 8 pole quick connect to drive my 4 vibration transducers.

 

[pt-actuator]

@pt-actuator

Hi Shao: I am from US. I was thinking to contact you to get the 3 actuators from you but I changed my mind. It would be just too much work for me to rebuild the rig again.

I have two SCN6 actuators mounted at the front for chassis mover and one under the chassis for traction loss. On top, I have added a seat mover with two SCN5 actuators from Simxperience. The rig works well for me now. If I ever think of building a flight sim in the future, I will definitely email you. Your 6DoF setup seems attractive.

I am just have to say, thanks so much for promoting our motion kits, whatever actuators and servo systems always, and we will work more hard to provide best service all the time~ keep in touch , bro.