Red Bull Reportedly to be Powered by Illien-developed Renault in 2016

[Chris]

The Red Bull engine-gate saga looks to be finally coming to an end with the news that the championship winning outfit are reportedly expected to be using a Mario Illien version of the 2016 Renault engine.

Illien - no stranger to engine development partnerships - has worked with Adrian Newey in the past in a similar fashion. The end result of that partnership was the ever dominant McLaren-Mercedes MP4-13. With Renault struggling mightily to recover from the 2014 engine regulations overhaul, Red Bull brought Mario Illien in, in an engine consultancy role, at the end of last season to try and help Renault address the issues they had, and continue to have, with their power units.

However, respected F1 columnist Mark Hughes mentions that the relationship between Renault and Illien was always an uncomfortable one as Illien had for many years been the public enemy of Renault due to his successful partnership with Mercedes. This meant that the flow of information from the French side of development to the Illien side was hampered somewhat at a management level. This lead to two separate paths of development in 2015: A French development path, and an Illien development path.

Adrian Newey (left) and Mario Illien (right) have been partnered before and the results speak for themselves.

If this development does come to fruition, then in 2016 the Red Bull power unit will be a combination of a Renault-based engine with Illien-based ICE combustion principles and the addition of Red Bull Racing's ERS and electrical components.

This development comes after many months of public slating, mostly by Red Bull, of the Renault engine, and a refusal by Ferrari and Mercedes to supply the Milton Keynes team with parity engines for the 2016 Formula One season.

Over to you:
Do you think Red Bull will be more competitive than they are this year thanks to this new engine development path? Can they take the fight to Mercedes or Ferrari?

 

[Aidan Keranen]

Well at least that is sorted I guess.

 

[Foxy58]

Good news, hope they will be competitive next year to throw a bit more into the mix for 2016 season. Glad Dan Ricciardo has a drive for next year.

 

[fortyfivekev]

It's only 4 months until the start of next season which is a REALLY short time to design, manufacture and test any meaningful changes to something as complex as a modern F1 engine. I can only see this as some kind of stop-gap to keep RB on the grid next year before they find something better longer-term.

 

[Andrew Harper]

Well from my point of view if that's the way they treat a company that brought them all the success they've had then I'm not very impressed. I'm not a businessman but the way in which they've slated Renault has not been very nice. I wouldn't have blamed Renault at all if they decided to walk away from F1 completely. They also expect Renault to share information with Mario Illien? Hmmmm, that it'll be interesting

Renault are not stupid, if what we've read is correct, the combustion side of the engine is fine, it's trying to get the hybrid side to function properly and when it should for maximum impact on lap times. Most projects are three year plans anyway, remember that Mercedes had almost two years of development before anyone else as well.

These are probably the most complex powertrains in motorsport (apart from maybe the WEC engines which are more powerful on the hybrid side). Look at Honda, they haven't forgotten how to make great engines either they are just playing catch up to Mercedes like everyone else.

I wish Red Bull all the best but I think they will slip back some more next year and maybe recover about mid-season, there's just too much work to be done in too short a time.

 

[Philip Heck]

Illien already said that this is not true.

 

[Spinelli]

Renault are by far the weakest of the engines (excluding Honda) but why doesn't anyone on any website ever bother mentioning the fact that Renault are also the only engine supplier which haven't even used a single 2015 token while Mercedes have used all and Ferrari have used most or all?

That's pretty huge in my mind especially when you look at the performances of a 0-token upgraded Red Bull compared to a max-or-almost-max-token upgraded Mercedes and Ferrari...

 

[Philip Heck]

Renault have admitted that they have no idea on how to spend the tokens... That might be why nobody mentions it as it let's them seem even more incompetent.

 

[Spinelli]

How could that be if Renault apparently had a big update for Austin but then delayed it for more reliability checks and are now possibly delaying it because they dont want Red Bull to have it (due to their fallout)?

 

[Philip Heck]

Well I don't know. It was what one of the Renault engineers said. Maybe he was talking about the winter tokens not the in-season ones. No idea.

 

[vee10]

Been denied by Super Mario so who knows what is going on in the murky world of F1.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/...habi-as-mario-illien-denies-red-bull-rumours/

 

[El-ahrairah]

I think this is very much here-say at the moment... I'd hardly say this saga is over

 

[InsaneOzzie]

Why don't RB approach Porsche or Nissan to build a hybrid, they both have the know how and experience with the technology. Why stick with Renault when they clearly aren't interested in a deal that suits RB, and besides, Renault are putting all their eggs in their own future F1 aspirations, seeing as they will be returning to the sport in a few years, why rent your advantage to an opposing team.
TBH the F1 formula is so ****ed up with rules and regs it's laughable, piss Ecclestone & Todt off FFS, before they completely destroy the formula to the point only teams like Ferrari & Mercedes can afford to play.

 

[El-ahrairah]

Why don't RB approach Porsche or Nissan to build a hybrid....

Because they need an engine for 2016... neither of those could supply a spec engine in < 3 months.

EDIT: Also Nissan = Renault

 

[Michael Stead]

Porsche = VW Group. I think they're going to need to trim the sails for a while..

 

[InsaneOzzie]

Because they need an engine for 2016... neither of those could supply a spec engine in < 3 months.

EDIT: Also Nissan = Renault

So having to wait till 2017 for a decent hybrid isn't going to change much for RB, not like Renault are going to be providing a champ winner for them in 2016 is it.

Porsche = VW Group. I think they're going to need to trim the sails for a while..

If I was VW Id be looking at it from a reputation rebuilding point of view, sure their in damage control due to the emissions saga but that's over their diesels, not a hybrid v6.
For VW to produce a competitive power plant for RB could be just the distraction they need to take the focus away from their legal problems with something a hell of a lot more positive.

 

[fortyfivekev]

Porsche = VW Group. I think they're going to need to trim the sails for a while..

Agreed. Same thing is probably going to happen to all those rumours of Audi buying the RB team. The VW group are going to need all their cash for fines and compensation.

 

[thewarmer]

Why don't RB approach Porsche or Nissan to build a hybrid, they both have the know how and experience with the technology. Why stick with Renault when they clearly aren't interested in a deal that suits RB, and besides, Renault are putting all their eggs in their own future F1 aspirations, seeing as they will be returning to the sport in a few years, why rent your advantage to an opposing team.
TBH the F1 formula is so ****ed up with rules and regs it's laughable, piss Ecclestone & Todt off FFS, before they completely destroy the formula to the point only teams like Ferrari & Mercedes can afford to play.

I far bigger issues with Ecclestone than Todt who as far bigger job than just looking after the elitist world F1 Became under the control of Ecclestone , it he along with his insiders with in The FIA & he was in fact running the FIA almost from back ground after getting his friend Max put in charge of the FIA
I that wake ever single Motor sport that dared to think bigger than F1 was destroyed or faced with rules changes that made sure they were never going to be threat to F1 ever.

Its esay to forget that the current World engine format be it Rallying , WTTC , or F1 the whole 1.6 Ltr Turbo unit was one of the last things put in place by Max before his Private sex life got the better of him.

Todt has had is plate full getting some of that mess sorting out WEC & the WRC along with the WTTC & WRX championship and whole host of lower tear sports.
Let not forget Todt was a Rally man first before become Mr F1 at Ferrari.

As for the dark lord himself Eccelstone wild meddling & crazy swings from one Idea to another are so unbalancing to the sport that it never going to find its feet as long has he clings to the controls.
As mad has he is , he as proven that he is above any laws on the planet & his willing to deal with Dodgy people & countries to retain his grip on power.

There will be little change while he retains power , lets face it if the like of major power in the auto industries can not control him who can.

RB have been trying to take leaf out of the Ferrari book out throwing fits when they are losing, but for all their billions from the RB drink they have next to no power like Ferrari have over F1.

One of the Few Teams that Eccelstone will bend for is Ferrari & not many others.
As for VW & Porsche , I for one do not think the fall out from the USA based scandal is not going to stop just with VW,Audi Porsche.

Many feel the **** will also hit the likes of other Euro based Car Company's , how long before the likes of Renault & the PSA Group are also targeted of their figures in the US market is yet to be Seen
Fiat also they make Diesel motors all claim to hit the targets set by the EU & US & if VW have rigged their software I would think other makes have maybe done the same.

I Agree that for RB they face been in no mans land even more next year until they find some body willing to sell them a engine or make one for them.

Renault I can see working fully with Illien with his former ties to Merc .
Though I am sure they would not mind some of the magic he did for Merc in the past.

 

[thewarmer]

So having to wait till 2017 for a decent hybrid isn't going to change much for RB, not like Renault are going to be providing a champ winner for them in 2016 is it.


If I was VW Id be looking at it from a reputation rebuilding point of view, sure their in damage control due to the emissions saga but that's over their diesels, not a hybrid v6.
For VW to produce a competitive power plant for RB could be just the distraction they need to take the focus away from their legal problems with something a hell of a lot more positive.

Not going to happen VW is committed long term to the WRC & with all the major rules changes coming in at the start of 2017 VW is going to busy developing a new update to the 1.6ltr Turbo engine for the increase in power for the 2017 cars & developing the new car for 2017 while at the same time keeping the current gen in winning form in the WRC & WRX.

Porsche is tied to the WEC & Le-Mans & other endurance event that suit the marks sales market.

there is Audi though I would have though they will be stepping down from their Prototype endurance racers now that Porsche is back there is little point in VW investing more money into two teams running in the same class of events.

Yes they will no doubt have to cut some of their motor-sports budget in one of these company's
Profits are going to be low for a few year after the costs of replacing all that trick software hits home & lost sale's to boot.


what ever happen RB are going to be hi & dry for a while without a full works engine nothing is going to change that simple fact.

Is this not just history repeating back in 1977 Renault were the first to run a Turbo car they never ever one a WC during their several years running in the first F1 Turbo era.

They won races but never the WC First Came the TAG Porsche engine & then the flood of other Turbo Teams . back then they were 2nd best or worse.

Only with the V10 Era did Renault come good.

Remember people called them yellow teapots as the almost always blew up or brewed up .
This sport needs another Cosworth type event the one and only time that anybody could buy a engine and built a half good car around it and win.

These days the balance faves the big works team just like it did back in the pre F1 GP days.

 

[Diogo Goetz Brand]

Well from my point of view if that's the way they treat a company that brought them all the success they've had then I'm not very impressed. I'm not a businessman but the way in which they've slated Renault has not been very nice. I wouldn't have blamed Renault at all if they decided to walk away from F1 completely. They also expect Renault to share information with Mario Illien? Hmmmm, that it'll be interesting

Renault are not stupid, if what we've read is correct, the combustion side of the engine is fine, it's trying to get the hybrid side to function properly and when it should for maximum impact on lap times. Most projects are three year plans anyway, remember that Mercedes had almost two years of development before anyone else as well.

These are probably the most complex powertrains in motorsport (apart from maybe the WEC engines which are more powerful on the hybrid side). Look at Honda, they haven't forgotten how to make great engines either they are just playing catch up to Mercedes like everyone else.

I wish Red Bull all the best but I think they will slip back some more next year and maybe recover about mid-season, there's just too much work to be done in too short a time.

Renault didn't bring Red Bull any success. Even when RB was dominating their straight line speed was inferior to Mercedes. I'd say RB has brought Renault engines to success, and not the opposite.