PC1 Project CARS controller input needs attention

[Philip Antonia]

Hmmm!!

Can't say much as I didn't have much time, but controller input (ala Shift) needs attention:bad:.

 

[Sk3ptik0n]

And lots of it. They need to take the steering ratios out of the controller screen and place it in each car's menus. The very firstthing I noticed was that a single ratio is not enough for all the different cars (as you would guess) especially lacking a garage.

I think they should copy iRacing way of doing things in that department. Otherwise I was impressed by how well it drives and looks. From the graphic's standpoint, I was taken aback by this "shimmering" effect I see at the edges of the shadows and objects in medium range. I'll have to think about a better description for it.

 

[Mike Coleman]

And lots of it. They need to take the steering ratios out of the controller screen and place it in each car's menus. The very firstthing I noticed was that a single ratio is not enough for all the different cars (as you would guess) especially lacking a garage.

I think they should copy iRacing way of doing things in that department. Otherwise I was impressed by how well it drives and looks. From the graphic's standpoint, I was taken aback by this "shimmering" effect I see at the edges of the shadows and objects in medium range. I'll have to think about a better description for it.

The steering rotation in the controller screen only affects the in-game steering animation. It has nothing to with "steering lock".

I'm going to verify this with the devs, but I believe the game adjusts to whatever rotation your wheel is set to.

I've experimented with 360, 540, 720, and 900. They all work perfect and feel the same, so I'm using 900.

 

[Pedro van Baelen]

I think they should copy iRacing way of doing things in that department.

iRacing has it spot on every game schould take a look at it
going to test this game in the weekend

 

[Philip Antonia]

Whoa, did I make this thread?

I thought I replied to the orignal release thread!!!!

Oh well never mind. The Steering Lock setting in game does affect you steering input, but you have to use the keyboard to set it or it doesn't save and automatically goes back to 360 degrees:bad:.

Once you find a better lock then things improve, but it still lacks "feel".

I certainly wont be judging this game on an early pre-alpha release as it is very good in many ways.

Funny thing is though, we've not had a chance to try rFactor 2 yet, but I feel completely confident that it will be awesome. I'm very on the fence about C.A.R.S though!!!

 

[Phill Routledge]

Yup agree totally on the input issue... Today. it's just woeful.

Everyone keeps saying on the WMD forums try these settings or try those settings... Why? when none of them work .
Not to mention a lot of the suggestions are way off base from the norm as would be used in multiple's of over sim titles.

Seems to me there is a complete and fundamental flaw within the wheel/ffb files, and the way it conveys to the user and that it needs to be sorted as a matter of utmost and primary concern.

I want C.A.R.S the sim, Not NFS Shift the quasi sim.

I posted to the Devs @ WMD, that this should be the #1 priority as right now.... It's just not good.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I don't think SMS understands the concept of steering precision....but remember, this is still a multiplatform game, so I doubt this will ever feel as precise as iracing, simbin or FVA.

 

[Peter]

I don't think SMS understands the concept of steering precision....but remember, this is still a multiplatform game, so I doubt this will ever feel as precise as iracing, simbin or FVA.

I think you have a point here, it's still a console port for PC.

 

[AProst]

You are wrong, CARS is being developed first for PC with wheel.

I have absolutely no problem with input precision or lag. Some people say they had, but developers are working hard to understand and improve that.

 

[Peter]

Shift2 is a console port, that makes C.A.R.S. also a console port.

C.A.R.S. isn't developed for PC, it's a stripped shift and now they try very hard to make a PC sim of it.

 

[Mikel Tapl]

can anyone who play the game tell if the game can be played with keyboard and mouse ?

 

[Christian Schegtel]

can anyone who play the game tell if the game can be played with keyboard and mouse ?

No, it can't be played by mouse. Using just a keyboard is fine though.

 

[Mikel Tapl]

No, it can't be played by mouse. Using just a keyboard is fine though.

Thank Christian.

 

[AProst]

Shift2 is a console port, that makes C.A.R.S. also a console port.

C.A.R.S. isn't developed for PC, it's a stripped shift and now they try very hard to make a PC sim of it.

Absolutely wrong, C.A.R.S is a new game developed for PC in alpha state, not even closed to be released. It can't be a Console port.

Shift 2 was based on GTR 2, so Console version of Shift 2 are port from PC. Strange No?

 

[Bart Hurskainen]

I turned the steering sensitivity down to 35 and it was great, which is opposite of other sims where i turn it always to 100? Oh yes and damper saturation to 25 with 900 degrees rotation.

 

[Apex1972]

Absolutely wrong, C.A.R.S is a new game developed for PC in alpha state, not even closed to be released. It can't be a Console port.

Shift 2 was based on GTR 2, so Console version of Shift 2 are port from PC. Strange No?

never heard this before.the part about based on gtr2 . source?

 

[Ryan Vickery]

Shift 2 was not based on GTR 2, why did you make that up? It is made by some of the same guys as GTR2 but GTR2 ran on the same engine as Rfactor, Shift 2 ran on a completely different engine (the same one that CARS runs on). Shift 2 felt completely different to GTR2 and was catered to gamepad users, it was not really a sim, it had a lot of controller issues with input lag, none of which was true about GTR2. Completely different games, completely different physics, completely different feel and look, worlds apart.

CARS 2 is essencially a stripped down Shift 2 and it has that feel about it, but otherwise it is very different, in a good way (you have to try it to understand). The input lag issues are still there (especially noticeable in the faster cars) and it is a problem that the devs are aware of, enough that they are going to redo it from the ground up to fix the problem.

Physics wise it has a lot of potential but as it is right now the cars have far far too much grip. An example is the Atom 300 (300bhp track car on road legal semi-slick tyres with no wings for downforce), at Bathurst I ran a laptime of 2:08.xx which is around the time of the lap record in a V8 Supercar, unless you haven't guessed but an Atom 300 should not even be able to run anywhere close to the time of a V8 Supercar, especially not on road legal tyres, with wonky input delay steering and an average driver behind the wheel.


CARS is shaping up to be an amazing game, if they can fix the input issues, whether it will actually be a sim is yet to be seen, but I think it "could" get there.

 

[boxox]

Have you ever in your life looked at any extracted Shift physics files? They bear an astonishing resemblance to another game.

For example,

Here's the 550's suspension file from GTR2:

//Suspension Geometry file by Doug Arnao for GTR2003 from Sim Bin Developement Team www.simbin.com
// This file is specifically for the Maranello 550
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// Conventions:
//
// +x = left
// +z = rear
// +y = up
// +pitch = nose up
// +yaw = nose right
// +roll = right
//
// [BODY]  - a rigid mass with mass and inertial properties
// [JOINT] - a ball joint constraining an offset of one body to an
//           offset of another body (eliminates 3 DOF)
// [HINGE] - a constraint restricting the relative rotations of two
//           bodies to be around a single axis (eliminates 2 DOF).
// [BAR]   - a constraint holding an offset of one body from an offset of
//           another body at a fixed distance (eliminates 1 DOF).
// [JOINT&HINGE] - both the joint and hinge constraints, forming the
//           conventional definition of a hinge (eliminates 5 DOF).
//
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

// Body including all rigidly attached parts (wings, barge boards, etc.)
[BODY]
name=body mass=(0.0) inertia=(0.0,0.0,0.0)
pos=(0.0,0.00,0.0) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Front spindles
[BODY]
name=fl_spindle mass=(15.5) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=fr_spindle mass=(15.5) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(-0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Front wheels
[BODY]
name=fl_wheel mass=(22.0) inertia=(1.292,0.724,0.724)
pos=(0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=fr_wheel mass=(22.0) inertia=(1.292,0.724,0.724)
pos=(-0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Rear spindles
[BODY]
name=rl_spindle mass=(17.0) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(0.74,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=rr_spindle mass=(17.0) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(-0.74,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Rear wheels (includes half of rear-axle)
[BODY]
name=rl_wheel mass=(26.0) inertia=(1.446,0.875,0.875)
pos=(0.787,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=rr_wheel mass=(26.0) inertia=(1.446,0.875,0.875)
pos=(-0.787,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Fuel in tank is not rigidly attached - it is attached with springs and
// dampers to simulate movement.  Properties are defined in the HDV file.

[BODY]
name=fuel_tank mass=(1.0) inertia=(1.0,1.0,1.0)
pos=(0.0,0.0,0.0) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Driver's head is not rigidly attached, and it does NOT affect the vehicle
// physics.  Position is from the eyepoint defined in the VEH file, while
// other properties are defined in the head physics file.

[BODY]
name=driver_head mass=(5.0) inertia=(0.02,0.02,0.02)
pos=(0.0,0.0,0.0) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// Constraints
//
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

// Front wheel and spindle connections
[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=fl_wheel negbody=fl_spindle pos=fl_wheel axis=(-0.813,0.0,0.0)

[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=fr_wheel negbody=fr_spindle pos=fr_wheel axis=(0.813,0.0,0.0)

// Front left suspension (2 A-arms + 1 steering arm = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm
name=fl_fore_upper posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.432,0.130,-1.65) neg=(0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.432,0.130,-1.45) neg=(0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.240,-0.168,-1.65) neg=(0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
name=fl_fore_lower posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.240,-0.168,-1.40) neg=(0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // steering arm (must be named for identification)
name=fl_steering posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.268,-0.124,-1.790) neg=(0.765,-0.105,-1.790)

// Front right suspension (2 A-arms + 1 steering arm = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm (used in steering lock calculation)
name=fr_fore_upper posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.432,0.130,-1.65) neg=(-0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.432,0.130,-1.45) neg=(-0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
name=fr_fore_lower posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.240,-0.168,-1.65) neg=(-0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.240,-0.168,-1.40) neg=(-0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // steering arm (must be named for identification)
name=fr_steering posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.268,-0.124,-1.790) neg=(-0.765,-0.105,-1.790)

// Rear left suspension (2 A-arms + 1 straight link = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.460,0.160,1.05) neg=(0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.460,0.160,1.40) neg=(0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.380,-0.152,1.05) neg=(0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.380,-0.152,1.40) neg=(0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // straight link
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.400,-0.00,1.52) neg=(0.736,0.008,1.52)

// Rear right suspension (2 A-arms + 1 straight link = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.460,0.160,1.05) neg=(-0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.460,0.160,1.40) neg=(-0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.380,-0.152,1.05) neg=(-0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.380,-0.152,1.40) neg=(-0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // straight link
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.400,-0.00,1.52) neg=(-0.736,0.008,1.52)

// Rear spindle and wheel connections
[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=rl_wheel negbody=rl_spindle pos=rl_wheel axis=(-0.787,0.0,0.0)

[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=rr_wheel negbody=rr_spindle pos=rr_wheel axis=(0.787,0.0,0.0)

Here's the 599's suspension file from Shift Ferrari DLC:

//Ferrari Racing Suspension Geometry file by Doug Arnao
// 612 Scaglietti
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// Conventions:
//
// +x = left
// +z = rear
// +y = up
// +pitch = nose up
// +yaw = nose right
// +roll = right
//
// [BODY]  - a rigid mass with mass and inertial properties
// [JOINT] - a ball joint constraining an offset of one body to an
//           offset of another body (eliminates 3 DOF)
// [HINGE] - a constraint restricting the relative rotations of two
//           bodies to be around a single axis (eliminates 2 DOF).
// [BAR]   - a constraint holding an offset of one body from an offset of
//           another body at a fixed distance (eliminates 1 DOF).
// [JOINT&HINGE] - both the joint and hinge constraints, forming the
//           conventional definition of a hinge (eliminates 5 DOF).
//
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

// Body including all rigidly attached parts (wings, barge boards, etc.)
[BODY]
name=body mass=(0.0) inertia=(0.0,0.0,0.0)
pos=(0.0,0.00,0.0) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Front spindles
[BODY]
name=fl_spindle mass=(15.5) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=fr_spindle mass=(15.5) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(-0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Front wheels
[BODY]
name=fl_wheel mass=(22.0) inertia=(1.292,0.724,0.724)
pos=(0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=fr_wheel mass=(22.0) inertia=(1.292,0.724,0.724)
pos=(-0.813,0.0,-1.65) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Rear spindles
[BODY]
name=rl_spindle mass=(17.0) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(0.74,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=rr_spindle mass=(17.0) inertia=(0.0275,0.0260,0.0245)
pos=(-0.74,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Rear wheels (includes half of rear-axle)
[BODY]
name=rl_wheel mass=(26.0) inertia=(1.446,0.875,0.875)
pos=(0.787,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

[BODY]
name=rr_wheel mass=(26.0) inertia=(1.446,0.875,0.875)
pos=(-0.787,0.0,1.35) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Fuel in tank is not rigidly attached - it is attached with springs and
// dampers to simulate movement.  Properties are defined in the HDV file.

[BODY]
name=fuel_tank mass=(1.0) inertia=(1.0,1.0,1.0)
pos=(0.0,0.0,0.0) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)

// Driver's head is not rigidly attached, and it does NOT affect the vehicle
// physics.  Position is from the eyepoint defined in the VEH file, while
// other properties are defined in the head physics file.

[BODY]
name=driver_head mass=(5.0) inertia=(0.02,0.02,0.02)
pos=(0.0,0.0,0.0) ori=(0.0,0.0,0.0)



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// Constraints
//
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

// Front wheel and spindle connections
[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=fl_wheel negbody=fl_spindle pos=fl_wheel axis=(-0.813,0.0,0.0)

[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=fr_wheel negbody=fr_spindle pos=fr_wheel axis=(0.813,0.0,0.0)

// Front left suspension (2 A-arms + 1 steering arm = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm
name=fl_fore_upper posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.432,0.130,-1.65) neg=(0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.432,0.130,-1.45) neg=(0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.240,-0.168,-1.65) neg=(0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
name=fl_fore_lower posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.240,-0.168,-1.40) neg=(0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // steering arm (must be named for identification)
name=fl_steering posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.268,-0.124,-1.790) neg=(0.765,-0.105,-1.790)

// Front right suspension (2 A-arms + 1 steering arm = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm (used in steering lock calculation)
name=fr_fore_upper posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.432,0.130,-1.65) neg=(-0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.432,0.130,-1.45) neg=(-0.736,0.160,-1.650)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
name=fr_fore_lower posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.240,-0.168,-1.65) neg=(-0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.240,-0.168,-1.40) neg=(-0.772,-0.168,-1.650)

[BAR] // steering arm (must be named for identification)
name=fr_steering posbody=body negbody=fr_spindle pos=(-0.268,-0.124,-1.790) neg=(-0.765,-0.105,-1.790)

// Rear left suspension (2 A-arms + 1 straight link = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.460,0.160,1.05) neg=(0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.460,0.160,1.40) neg=(0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.380,-0.152,1.05) neg=(0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.380,-0.152,1.40) neg=(0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // straight link
posbody=body negbody=rl_spindle pos=(0.400,-0.00,1.52) neg=(0.736,0.008,1.52)

// Rear right suspension (2 A-arms + 1 straight link = 5 links)
[BAR] // forward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.460,0.160,1.05) neg=(-0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward upper arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.460,0.160,1.40) neg=(-0.712,0.188,1.35)

[BAR] // forward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.380,-0.152,1.05) neg=(-0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // rearward lower arm
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.380,-0.152,1.40) neg=(-0.740,-0.165,1.35)

[BAR] // straight link
posbody=body negbody=rr_spindle pos=(-0.400,-0.00,1.52) neg=(-0.736,0.008,1.52)

// Rear spindle and wheel connections
[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=rl_wheel negbody=rl_spindle pos=rl_wheel axis=(-0.787,0.0,0.0)

[JOINT&HINGE]
posbody=rr_wheel negbody=rr_spindle pos=rr_wheel axis=(0.787,0.0,0.0)

Since this could get awkward to look at, here's something I prepared earlier. I removed the top comment and opened both in winmerge, and it says:

Curious people will also find that the shocking differences between a shift chassis and a gtr2 chassis file involve re-arranging the extension letters from .hdc to .cdf, tyres from .tyr to .hdt, engines from ... oh wait, that's exactly the same, etcetera. Actual content differences are very minor (some renamed parameters, some new ones, some that are moved to different parts of the game). Even the terrain surface system uses about 80% identical named parameters with GTR2.

There is a lot of new and better stuff in there, but I'm curious what exactly your experience is here. Mine is that with some renamed file extensions you can literally port and drive Shift > GTR2 and GTR2 > Shift cars. How about you?

 

[Ryan Vickery]

It runs on a different engine, it changes everything. iRacing with its obsession for using the real world numbers, amazingly doesnt feel the same as the real world by a long way, but the numbers are the same so it must be the same, right? iRacing is using a lot of the groundings built up from NASCAR 2003 and even GP Legends, yet it feels a lot different (atleast a lot different from GPL)

The guys behind Shift 2 and GTR2 are the same guys, so if they thought their numbers were right back then, then why would they be wrong now? That doesn't change the massive varience of other factors that play a part, the most important being the engine itself. Shift 2 felt nothing like GTR 2, GTR 2 felt like Rfactor (Because it runs on the same engine?). CARS does feel a lot like Shift 2, because it runs on the same engine, probably uses the same numbers again.

What you're saying is "Look these numbers are the same", what you're missing out is everything else that leads to why they are completely different. I only wish Shift 2 was the same as GTR 2, GTR 2 was a much better sim.



Ferrari Virtual Academy was individually developed for Ferrari, and is not compatable with NetKar Pro, but instantly the sim racing community knew that underneath FVA was NetKar Pro, even with the far superior graphics of FVA and the numbers specifically tuned for the F1 simulation, everybody instantly knew it was NetKar pro under the hood, same engine.

You can take the numbers from iRacing and put them into Rfactor, it will still feel and drive like Rfactor.

 

[boxox]

Ryan, you said

GTR2 ran on the same engine as Rfactor,

But by your logic this is totally impossible because rFactor used the exact same data, in a file called .hdv, and GTR2 used the exact same data, in a file called .hdc. See? Totally different!

In terms of "the whole engine" - yes obviously, many components stripped and replaced. But it's just forks. SimBin has "Lizard", Shift has "Gecko". The basic physics data other than the new tyre model and collision model are pretty much identical between them, with a grand total of exactly one renamed parameter to do with anything in the chassis, and a new tyre model (not an idle choice of words - same style of brush model that iRacing switched to later).

so if they thought their numbers were right back then, then why would they be wrong now?

Interestingly enough, they don't regard GTR2 as "right", and Doug Arnao said as much months after the release. They tried and failed to completely eliminate bugs in the stock ISI tyre model which made grip levels drop too quickly (and you can see this same attempt taken further by looking at what was tried next in GTR Evolution). You can read Ian talking about the same thing again here. So, you know, just something to bear in mind if you are expecting CARS to somehow emulate your favourite bugs from GTR2. It's probably not in their plans. FYI Shift's tyre adjustment is called "subtle" in that post while the GTR2 version of the same is referred to as "falling off a cliff". Make your own judgement about what that might mean.