Pimax VR HMD review NDA embargo lifts: not great news for sim racers

[Mascot]

Testers are now allowed to release reviews of the final hardware, and while the Pimax units are undoubtedly a step forward for VR (higher resolution, wider FoV), the bad news seems to be that they're likely to struggle to provide adequate framerates in sim racing (even with powerful 8700k/1080ti combos). Doubts also remain about the effectiveness of Pimax's reprojection/ASW solution.

Assetto Corsa benchmarks at about 1hr 15 mins timestamp:

More reviews:

Foveated rendering can't come quickly enough, it seems.
The wider FoV for better peripheral vision in sim racing is was what got me excited about the Pimax in the first place, but it seems like PC hardware might need a couple more generations to adequately power the displays (or HMD tech needs to find efficiency solutions) before sim racing can truly benefit from this. Maybe one card per eye is required?

Anyone here backing the Pimax Kickstarter or getting ready to preorder?

 

[anton_Chez]

You can't blame developers for not implementing something Nvidia advertises for their products and that makes Nvidia money, when the ones that pay for the implementation have nothing to gain from it! That's completely unreasonable. I love new hardware but they are just taking the piss now and I want no part of it. Now it's RTX. Lets see how many titles support this frame crippling technology. I'm sure once the green runs out for the initial promotions ala ACC, no one will even remember this was a thing.

I am completely disillusioned with the graphics landscape and it makes me glad that I don't play games anymore. Fighting games and sim racing. That's it for me. If it weren't for VR I probably wouldn't buy another card for years.

 

[RobertR1]

You can't blame developers for not implementing something Nvidia advertises for their products and that makes Nvidia money, when the ones that pay for the implementation have nothing to gain from it! That's completely unreasonable. I love new hardware but they are just taking the piss now and I want no part of it. Now it's RTX. Lets see how many titles support this frame crippling technology. I'm sure once the green runs out for the initial promotions ala ACC, no one will even remember this was a thing.

I am completely disillusioned with the graphics landscape and it makes me glad that I don't play games anymore. Fighting games and sim racing. That's it for me. If it weren't for VR I probably wouldn't buy another card for years.

The tech that we take for granted today that I mentioned (AA/AF/HDR/FXAA) all started off as taxing on newer tech.

Take a look at Far Cry HDR implementation on the 6800Ultra back in the day and how crippling it was to the card. However, the leap is tech was so good that it's adoption grew quickly which meant the software libraries evolved, devs became better at coding and implementation and future generation hardware was built to handle it better. https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/gaming/pc/farcry_patch13_eval/5/ Again, not every tech intro takes off so those get labeled as marketecture.

To only introduce features when they have matured through incubation with limited or no performance penalty is not a realistic expectation.

If the bottom line is pricing, then it's more of a discussion about AMD and Intel stepping up to create competition. AMD being the closest chance we have. The last AMD card I had was a X1900XTX which was a disappointment. Since then it's all been nvidia not because they're awesome but because they're all I have to choose from for my needs.

 

[anton_Chez]

They could have just done clock bumps with a similar price and pocketed the margins but instead they saw an opportunity put a massive chip out there with all sorts of new tech.

The way they've milked it from Kepler to Maxwell, you mean? They've done the drip feed, now it's the knockout blow. What happened to 4K? Did that just fall off the face of the earth? All the people waiting for that next gen to come so that finally we might have a couple of cards that didn't cost as much as my OSW that could do 2160p at 60hz. All of a sudden, speed isn't important anymore, we need new tech that makes our PC's run like consoles.

Speaking of AA, how many devs just run with the good ol' FXAA these days, as opposed to a real MSAA? Pretty much all of them. The hardware is good enough now to run it, devs don't implement it. Why? Consoles. Why bother. DX11 removed the ability to inject the AA at a driver level, too Nice. Now we can't even use it at all.

I'm also SUPER excited to run NO games in DX12, even though my 1080Ti is 18 months old and sold in the first range of cards to support DX12. A new, more efficient API, that practically runs everything worse than it's predecessor, when it's actually 'supported'. SLI? Who needs it's DX12 will let you run 2 cards and the game sees it as 1, combining VRAM for the first time ever.

This gen, SLI support is removed from the prime candidate to actually use in an SLI config, the 'mid tier', $499 RTX 2070.

What's also been so amazing is to watch the production of 10 series cards ramp up massively to meet the demand of the mining boom, only to have to delay the release of the new cards to make sure inventory was accounted for. Why not reduce the price of items that have been on the market for 2 years, instead? Because people will pay the SAME price for them 2 years on, while accepting to pay MORE for the new gen. What used to be a reason to buy a new generation card (30-50% performance increase), now costs you a 50% premium as well. Awesome.

Sorry, I am not having a go at any member in here inparticular, I am just done with this company and what they think they can do to an industry that I've loved all my life. They can go to hell.

 

[RobertR1]

The way they've milked it from Kepler to Maxwell, you mean? They've done the drip feed, now it's the knockout blow. What happened to 4K? Did that just fall off the face of the earth? All the people waiting for that next gen to come so that finally we might have a couple of cards that didn't cost as much as my OSW that could do 2160p at 60hz. All of a sudden, speed isn't important anymore, we need new tech that makes our PC's run like consoles.

Actually their reviewers guide only focuses on 4k. Infact, all their reviewer guide examples are to demonstrate that there is now finally a true 4k/60fps card on the market. It's hugely important for them and clearly, for the market.

https://videocardz.com/77983/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2080-ti-and-rtx-2080-official-performance-unveiled

 

[Dan Costa]

If the bottom line is pricing, then it's more of a discussion about AMD and Intel stepping up to create competition. AMD being the closest chance we have. The last AMD card I had was a X1900XTX which was a disappointment. Since then it's all been nvidia not because they're awesome but because they're all I have to choose from for my needs.

what are you talking about man. The HD48xx, HD58xx, HD7xxx HD8xxx and R9 2xx all launched after the X1900XTX and were better cards than anything nvidia had to offer, sometimes a lot better.
The R9 290 was a titan killer and even surpassed the 780ti. AMD was amazing up until 2014 when the money dried up.

Edit: money didn't dry up per se. Their small budget was shifted into the Zen cpu project. Ryzen.
.

 

[RobertR1]

what are you talking about man. The HD48xx, HD58xx, HD7xxx HD8xxx and R9 2xx all launched after the X1900XTX and were better cards than anything nvidia had to offer, sometimes a lot better.
The R9 290 was a titan killer and even surpassed the 780ti. AMD was amazing up until 2014 when the money dried up.

.

I should have clarified that during my upgrade cycles the AMD version was never an option once I moved to nvidia.

8800gtx dominated the market when I upgraded to it and held off for ages
Then I moved to the xbox 360 for a few years because it was a great platform
When I moved back to the PC, as the 360 gen went on too long, the 780ti was the clear winner
Then the 980ti (current)

There is no way the 780ti was smoked by a R290. Even 2.5 years later that's not a truthful statement. I'm well familiar with this as I was in the market for a new card at that time. https://babeltechreviews.com/nvidia-forgotten-kepler-gtx-780-ti-vs-290x-revisited/4/ The biggest gains for the R290 came from AMD not moving architectures while nvidia focused on optimizing Maxwell which is why I then jumped to a 980ti.

 

[Dan Costa]

The 290x is indeed faster than the 780ti.

edit:
"The biggest gains for the R290 came from AMD not moving architectures "

yes this is true

 

[Deleted member 197115]

VoodoDE suggested 5K+, sharper image, almost the same SDE as 8K and the most important, you need to SS 8K much higher to get the same image quality as with 5K+.

 

[anton_Chez]

VoodoDE suggested 5K+, sharper image, almost the same SDE as 8K and the most important, you need to SS 8K much higher to get the same image quality as with 5K+.

Which makes absolutely NO sense because when questioned on whether 5K or 8K should be backed, their response was as follows: (paraphrased)

"If choosing between 5K and 8K Pimax, where performance requirements are concerned, we advise going for 8K. The 5K and 8K process the same signal from the graphics card, except the 8K has an internal scaler that creates the better image. 5K native resolution, 8K upscaled resolution, same performance cost. Therefore, there is no need to buy 5K if you have the graphics card to run the 5K and the money to purchase the 8K"

I back the 8K, with a base station for $850 AUD.

2018: "Pimax 8K needs 1.5 super-sampling to MATCH the 5K image quality at 1.0."

What?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

You can read impressions on German board
https://forum.virtualracing.org/showthread.php/106822-PIMAX-5K-8K-8KX/page20
Seems like 8K picture is just blurry, not sure if it's due to internal upscaling or not but not as crisp as 5K+, SDE effect on the other hand almost the same.
I don't know, will wait for what Oculus announces before jumping on Pimax.
Odyssey served well so far.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

This is actually very good comparison review. Sounds like at least for Odyssey/Vive Pro owners this is more as a sidestep than upgrade with slightly better sharpness but worse black levels. But as far as 5K vs 8K go, 5K seems like a no-brainer.

 

[anton_Chez]

That's the thing. When I heard about the internal upscaler needed to get the '8K' image, I was immediately drawn to the 5K. That, and the fact that potentially it was going to need a bigger render budget than the 8K. I was told these things were not an issue.

Now they are a massive issue. I have to downgrade my pledge to what I would have spent less money on in the beginning but didn't because of incorrect information. I would have gained an upgrade to 5K+ if I backed the 5K, now I get to 'downgrade' to 5K+ for more money.

Annoying. I understand Kickstarter and it's potential issues i.e perhaps not even receiving a product at all at the end of it. But still, why is the information so conflicting now? They must have known these things when they were asking for funding. Same with the 90hz rubbish on the 8K. Now the 8K struggles to achieve a stable experience above 80hz. The 5K doesn't have this problem. Another thing that would have pushed me to 5K.

 

[anton_Chez]

Based on that review and the reported frame rates, either Pimax unit is dead on arrival for me. Absolutely no use having a HMD capable of 45fps in sim racing titles (granted it was PC2 but still it's relevant in this case) on what is currently the fastest GPU on earth for games, is absolutely useless.

 

[rikirk]

I am a backer of the 8k too and very disappointed with Pimax and the whole scheme. Let's not forget that they were already in the market with the 4k so they should have known precisely where to land if they had any sort of company structure behind. Instead is one or the thousands mushrooms of this millennium, easy promises and unhealthy ethic.
Asking backers to hold off after 1 year delay to get a lower spec headset is just outrageous.

 

[anton_Chez]

Yep. It's a complete joke. I am going to downgrade to the 5K+ and just see how I manage with the frame rate. PC2 seems to be the worst of the bunch. Others have reviewed and tested (been watching since my last post) other sim racing titles and they seem to be playable. Who knows what in game settings they were using as well so we might find a nice boost once we get our hands on it depending on what settings we run. I know this though, that the hardware I have is what I am running it on. Maybe I'll grab a used 2080Ti in a year or so but I am NOT buying new.

Worst case, we can run the render target down a little and just get the frames back. Frames and the driving experience has to be number 1 priority. I'd suggest that anything we reduce it to will still be better than the Oculus and with the added FOV and reduced SDE, it will still be a considerable upgrade over what I have. If the 5K+ and 8K handle straight lines without as much shimmering and jaggies as the Oculus, the need for AA in game will be reduced and only help to give back a few more frames.

 

[RobertR1]

This is actually very good comparison review. Sounds like at least for Odyssey/Vive Pro owners this is more as a sidestep than upgrade with slightly better sharpness but worse black levels. But as far as 5K vs 8K go, 5K seems like a no-brainer.

Do you have an Odyssey currently? How do you like it for simracing?

I'm itching to move off the rift and it looks like my only options are Odyssey or Pimax 5k+ dependent on the release date.

 

[dave kirk]

I would NOT bank on anything coming from game developers or Nvidia regarding features that improve performance in head units. I am still BURNING at those scumbags that advertised the 10 series cards as having dedicated VR rendering techniques that allowed the image of one eye to be used for both eyes, effectively halving the cost of performance. These are the same people that also advertised SMP, the technique that renders 1 screen across 3 in a triple screen resolution allowing for a much less cost to perfomance. I have had BOTH of these setups and have never seen it implemented in anything other than iRacing. It's developer dependant and absolutely should not be counted on when buying new cards.

I am not buying a 2080Ti. I am done with these ridiculous price hikes and empty promises from what I consider one of my most hated companies. I despise Nvidia's business practice, from the lies of the 10 series 'features' (oh sick, I can take screenshots in game, now where's my improved VR performance?) to the disgusting VRAM debable that the tech journo's said was 'no big deal'. I wish VR would support SLI so I can go and get another used 1080Ti and call it a day. 2 grande for 50% performance increase over last gen? That's what we got for the same price generations past. How else to they hope to sell new cards if the new generation isn't faster than the old one? Now we are expected to pay double? Over Titan prices now for a Ti variant? At launch now? Wow.

Anyway, back on topic. If my 1080Ti cannot at least power the 5K+ at native refresh with details and cars on screen similar to the Oculus, I'll sell my pledge and stick with Oculus. We were told hardware requirements at the kickstarter stage (which I FAR exceeded at the time) and now we need cards that aren't even released just to run these things? How are people not mad?

I read the new cards are only 25% better performance

 

[Michal Burisin]

This is actually very good comparison review. Sounds like at least for Odyssey/Vive Pro owners this is more as a sidestep than upgrade with slightly better sharpness but worse black levels. But as far as 5K vs 8K go, 5K seems like a no-brainer.
.

Many reviewers said it's a game changer and once they tried high FOV headsets, there was no going back, so I wouldn't call it side step. Side step was Vive Pro in my opinion

You can read impressions on German board
https://forum.virtualracing.org/showthread.php/106822-PIMAX-5K-8K-8KX/page20
Seems like 8K picture is just blurry, not sure if it's due to internal upscaling or not but not as crisp as 5K+, SDE effect on the other hand almost the same.
I don't know, will wait for what Oculus announces before jumping on Pimax.
Odyssey served well so far.

It's curious regarding SDE, it's so much better on 8k based on these gifs.

Yep. It's a complete joke. I am going to downgrade to the 5K+ and just see how I manage with the frame rate. PC2 seems to be the worst of the bunch. Others have reviewed and tested (been watching since my last post) other sim racing titles and they seem to be playable. Who knows what in game settings they were using as well so we might find a nice boost once we get our hands on it depending on what settings we run. I know this though, that the hardware I have is what I am running it on. Maybe I'll grab a used 2080Ti in a year or so but I am NOT buying new.

Worst case, we can run the render target down a little and just get the frames back. Frames and the driving experience has to be number 1 priority. I'd suggest that anything we reduce it to will still be better than the Oculus and with the added FOV and reduced SDE, it will still be a considerable upgrade over what I have. If the 5K+ and 8K handle straight lines without as much shimmering and jaggies as the Oculus, the need for AA in game will be reduced and only help to give back a few more frames.

Kickstarter has risks and this seems as really successful one. Better wait for normal release if you have problem with risks tied to KS. It seems that Pimax is a nice company and are not trying to rip people off on purpose - my opinion.

Even when they couldn't deliver all promises, it seems most people are happy with what they achieved and it is no small feat given their small budget for R&D. Although their communication and marketing sucks, but I would expect that from China based company and don't blame them as it seems to me, they do everything in their power to deliver best VR headsets they can, while big companies sit on their research in labs and are waiting to milk every last dollar from the old generation headsets before forced to moving to next one.

"If choosing between 5K and 8K Pimax, where performance requirements are concerned, we advise going for 8K. The 5K and 8K process the same signal from the graphics card, except the 8K has an internal scaler that creates the better image. 5K native resolution, 8K upscaled resolution, same performance cost. Therefore, there is no need to buy 5K if you have the graphics card to run the 5K and the money to purchase the 8K"

2018: "Pimax 8K needs 1.5 super-sampling to MATCH the 5K image quality at 1.0."

There's probably confusion what quality is, it's not that easy to compare the quality between those 2 headsets. Quality can mean other things to different people (for me one of main parameters of quality is SDE for example). 2018 quote probably refers to "clarity".

So 8k can get close to 5k+ clarity with pushed supersampling, but 5k+ won't get that low SDE 8k has to offer. I'll be grabbing 8k based on this.

It was marketed as enthusiast headset from the beginning. It's not specifically marketed at simulations but VR in general and in graphically simple games, which there are probably the most for VR, it will run allright.

However with sims, that have advanced graphics, you'll either have to use lower FOV settings (still much better than current gen), turn SS down, turn details down or get best hardware and you still probably won't be able to run all setting on top levels (remember Far Cry). I think it will be perfectly usable and better than old gen if you lower your expectations little bit.

I think it's not reasonable to think you can run it on full details with high SS on full FOV on current hardware, just count the pixels the graphic card needs to push and it's just not possible. Hopefully BrainWarp will be added. And possibly eye tracking in the future - if developers implement it in the end...

Regarding 80hz vs 90hz it was not noticable to some reviewers, but it might be personal though...

Anyway I'm super excited with what reviews revealed so far, cannot wait . I have been following that project closely and I must say, I didn't expect it to be so much better product than old gen in so many ways so it has basically exceeded my expectations in every way - at least according to reviews.

 

[anton_Chez]

I agree that the Kickstarter campaign was a success and the fact that we are actually getting the product in the form it was described initially is pretty cool. I just don't understand how you can miss the mark so badly in regards to projected performance requirements. I for one am definitely going for the 5K+. I think it will be a great upgrade to the Oculus and look forward to getting mine.

I am not a fan of ANY company therefore am not thankful or in debt to them for anything that they do. They make a product, I give them money. That's the deal. The goal is for each party to be happy. Doesn't always happen but that's life. It will be interesting to see once the general public, especially those that do not own 1080Ti's or haven't pre-ordered the new 20 series, get their hands on their head units. I am pretty sure I can make it work for me even if I have to make some sacrifices here and there with visuals. Without brainwarp we will need to be running native refresh as sim racers. Even with brainwarp it can be a little jarring. The advantages both the 5K and 8K have over current gen hardware is going to be a pretty big jump.

 

[Mascot]

Putting my sensible hat on for a second and being sympathetic to current CPU/GPU limitations, I think I'd be happy for the next few years with the same resolution and SDE of the Rift (both of which I'm used to and therefore don't really notice) but with a much larger FoV. That's really the top of my wish list. I only use VR for sim racing and don't really use my PC for anything other than sims. And that's one sim, actually. Assetto Corsa. If I could just gain wider peripheral vision for better awareness and added immersion then I'd be one happy camper. Better resolution can come later in parallel with suitable hardware improvements.