Motion system with 10000$ budget

[Pablo Roldan]

I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I dont think you will go wrong with any of those options, but I am unsure why you think smaller is faster? the rs-mini wont be faster than the rs mega and neither will be slower than the dbox.

Thanks metalInwood.. Just wanted to emphasize the importance of those attributes I did not mean that motion systems with long travel lack vel/acc/fast response.

But is not true that the longer the travel there are more chances that you notice the motion is not mapped 1:1 with the simulator?.Since the motion takes more time to finish and any mismatch is more noticeable.

 

[metalnwood]

Thanks metalInwood.. Just wanted to emphasize the importance of those attributes I did not mean that motion systems with long travel lack vel/acc/fast response.

But is not true that the longer the travel there are more chances that you notice the motion is not mapped 1:1 with the simulator?.Since the motion takes more time to finish and any mismatch is more noticeable.

I dont use more motion because I have it unless there is a good reason to.

So I think thats why a lot of people say that dbox is enough for racing. I think all the motion that makes a car come alive can be doe with a small amount of motion and you wouldn't use more because you have it or it would just feel awful.

If you like to really feel the banked section at daytona, or the rise and dip of circuits like Algarve in portugal then longer actuators may be better. The rise and fall and the banking dont happen at the speed of other car effects so there is no mistach in what you see and what you feel.

I think I reponded because you wondered if you would miss it in flight simulators. You would certainly notice the difference in flight simulators so I was pointing out that you can still have long travel and fast response. similarly, for flight simulators if you are flying more conventionally then they are fast enough as well.

 

[StuyoDGr8]

Come on....It is not that old .

Great to have that conversation here. Motion is the last piece of hardware Ill add to the sim when times comes after i maximize the components i already have (tactile mainly).

I am leaning more and more towards motion systems with small travel and fast response/accel/vel like D-Box, RS-mini, or Sigma DK2, but I have never tried one, and even though the main thing I do is formula/GT racing, I'm afraid of losing what motion systems with longer travel bring to the table for flight simulators.

Why are you planning on adding a second M+? One of the reasons I would go for an M+ is its price, but not if you need two to get satisfied... Could you elaborate a bit more on what you think a second M+ would add to the experience?

As for the M+ - single installation is great, paired with the V3 gives very good feel. What you are missing is Pitch:

Also the backend is very “boring” - M+ delivers tactile and you have lot of things happening on the front, on the back you only have swinging left-right and that’s it. Even the seat mover does not compensate - it only enhances the effects an adds surge. Both platforms working together even simulate very good traction loss in VR - I really can feel the backend sliding. I have very good bass shaker setup which totally compensates the lack of haptics in the back, still miss the suspension effects from the M+. Also as far as I can see single installation does not even try to simulate pitch or it is very small, I think two M+ systems use different algorithm altogether - this is what I am after. Front feels like real suspension, want to do it in the back as well. Keeping the V3 for flight and surge and general enhancing of the M+ effects but with low force.

Still considering the RS Mega+ as NRL way will put my seat 6cm taller and i have limitation on how tall the rig would be. On the other hand really like having single software dealing with all my motion - both platforms really work consistent and i feel no delay in effects (this is very noticeable in VR, on screen not that much).

 

[SigmaMotion]

Thanks metalInwood.. Just wanted to emphasize the importance of those attributes I did not mean that motion systems with long travel lack vel/acc/fast response.

But is not true that the longer the travel there are more chances that you notice the motion is not mapped 1:1 with the simulator?.Since the motion takes more time to finish and any mismatch is more noticeable.

This is a very good point and why many people are just satisfied with minimal travel. Its much easier, mechanically, electronically and algorithmically to represent effects in a limited amount of travel, easier to hit target positions etc.

This is also where to use of Effects helps, or using pre-recorded vibrations/haptics to represent game features. What is hard is properly scaling the motion from the game into small amounts of travel without fade out. This requires some cleaver programing or things like a dynamic scaling algorithms and so on, but it is doable.

More stroke is great for applications that require it, but meeting positional requirements is harder on larger stroke systems and motion can get quite violent with the inertia created. More stroke also means adjusting your monitors or possibly mounting it to the chassis. Or it can mean raising your monitors to meet the new middle position. But accelerating over greater distances builds up a lot of inertia and again requires enhancements to the regenerative resistors, side load of the pistons, allowable angles for the feet, etc etc....

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I am having a look at the different motion solutions and was wondering if is there any guide or manual with blueprints of how the servo-motors and controllers are wired and fitted on those Racks i see people use.

Not that i am going to go for the RS Mega+ solution for sure but if i do i would like to avoid the rack and try to integrate the servos and controllers in the simrig, with a metal plate under it between the seat and pedals. And i would like to know measures so i can design a solution that fits in the available space that i have in my simlabs P1-X

 

[Clover11]

I am having a look at the different motion solutions and was wondering if is there any guide or manual with blueprints of how the servo-motors and controllers are wired and fitted on those Racks i see people use.

Not that i am going to go for the RS Mega+ solution for sure but if i do i would like to avoid the rack and try to integrate the servos and controllers in the simrig, with a metal plate under it between the seat and pedals. And i would like to know measures so i can design a solution that fits in the available space that i have in my simlabs P1-X

I don't see you fitting it in your P1-X. Not easily anyways. They take some room, especially with all the cabling. I used a size 6 server rack in my memory is correct. I just got a length of aluminum, cut for a strip along the top and bottom. The rack had vertical mounts that I attached the aluminum to. You do need fasters for everything too. Nothing too complicated. I thought about building something for 80/20 40x40, but it would have cost as much as the server rack and would have looked messy with all the wires unless I did something extra. I'm also putting some other controllers like the G-belt box in the same rack. Kind of want to put more in my rack, however, cable length becomes an issue for me with some things.

 

[blekenbleu]

i would like to avoid the rack and try to integrate the servos and controllers in the simrig

Authorized RD vendor Tronicgr_6DOF has a thread about the Thanos AMC-AASD15A controller, which can drive up to 6 servos.

At least two motion systems integrate controllers and actuators.
Avoiding separate controllers reduces likelihood of EMC issues,
specifically USB interference. Sim Racing Garage reviewed both:

• DK2 motion kit from Sigma Integrel, an authorized RD vendor
• D-BOX G5
  RCHeliguy has described his D-BOX G5 experience here

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I don't see you fitting it in your P1-X. Not easily anyways. They take some room, especially with all the cabling. I used a size 6 server rack in my memory is correct. I just got a length of aluminum, cut for a strip along the top and bottom. The rack had vertical mounts that I attached the aluminum to. You do need fasters for everything too. Nothing too complicated. I thought about building something for 80/20 40x40, but it would have cost as much as the server rack and would have looked messy with all the wires unless I did something extra. I'm also putting some other controllers like the G-belt box in the same rack. Kind of want to put more in my rack, however, cable length becomes an issue for me with some things. View attachment 634828View attachment 634829

I see thanks Clover1.Ive been talking with alex from eracing labs and with the measurements of the servo motors and the Thanos Controller they would barely fit in the space i have left under my simrig between the pedals and the seat which is of about 25x58cm.

And i would still have to do the wiring.Could be done as you say but not easily.
Even if everything fit in that area, the cables from the servomotors to the controller and the actuators would protrude above the aluminum profiles.

But i would love not having a rack around the room.

 

[d69morpwr]

You can fit the 4 controllers under the seat on a p1x. Its tight but they fit. I mounted them on a piece of black 1/4 inch plastic board and then used rubber vibration mounts between the p1x and board. The Thanos controller i have mounted on the back of the P1X because i wanted easy access to it.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

You can fit the 4 controllers under the seat on a p1x. Its tight but they fit. I mounted them on a piece of black 1/4 inch plastic board and then used rubber vibration mounts between the p1x and board. The Thanos controller i have mounted on the back of the P1X because i wanted easy access to it.

Thanks.The problem is i can not fit them under the seat because i am using simtag seat RAcebass isolators and a buttkicker and there is not space left there.It has to be between pedals and seat.

Do you have the actuators in a row like i have in the screenshot?.May i know how big is the plastic board you used to mount the actuators on?, i could move the thanos to the back to the p1-x rig aswell since i have a place there for electronics with some space left.

The ideal solution would be having all actuators and thanos board together so i do not have cable running from the actuators to the back of the rig to reach the controller.

Alex from eracing labs told me he can cut the cables to the actuators to any lenght i want.Maybe the same can be done with the cables that goes to the controller

 

[d69morpwr]

Thanks.The problem is i can not fit them under the seat because i am using simtag seat RAcebass isolators and a buttkicker and there is not space left there.It has to be between pedals and seat.

Do you have the actuators in a row like i have in the screenshot?.May i know how big is the plastic board you used to mount the actuators on?, i could move the thanos to the back to the p1-x rig aswell since i have a place there for electronics with some space left.

I dont have the exact measurements but its just wide enough to fit between the 2 corner brackets and tall enough for the controllers. If you have a full floor on your P1X they might fit under that.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I dont have the exact measurements but its just wide enough to fit between the 2 corner brackets and tall enough for the controllers. If you have a full floor on your P1X they might fit under that.

ah right, forgot about the corner brackets.

 

[pihops]

keeping it all in the chassis can be done .. ;0 (not my setup)

tight but possible

Keep us posted when you do

 

[Pablo Roldan]

it is time for a wheel/pedals change.

I have two options:

1-Fanatec DD PRO + F1 Wheel v2.5 + Clubsport V3

2-Logitech G PRO Racing Wheel

The wheel has to have PS5 compatibility.

These are the pro and cons for both options:

Logitech Pros
-What leans me towards the Logitech wheel is TrueForce which i think and make it up a bit for the lack for tactile in ps5 games.
-Customer Support
Logitech Cons:
-I really do not like the looks. And the look are kind of important to me.
-No ecosystem

Fanatec Pros
-The looks
-Fanatec Ecosystem
-¿Better Pedals? / More Customize options

Fanatec Cons
-Customer support(I live in Spain and would have to RMA to England if i have any problems)

I think that FFB nd overall performance from both bases will be similar and i give them a tie in that.

I would like to hear from people that has Logitech G Pro Racing Wheel that can tell me how much TrueForce really adds. Mainly in ps5 games.

 

[Mr Latte]

it is time for a wheel/pedals change.

I have two options:

1-Fanatec DD PRO + F1 Wheel v2.5 + Clubsport V3

2-Logitech G PRO Racing Wheel

The wheel has to have PS5 compatibility.

These are the pro and cons for both options:

Logitech Pros
-What leans me towards the Logitech wheel is TrueForce which i think and make it up a bit for the lack for tactile in ps5 games.
-Customer Support
Logitech Cons:
-I really do not like the looks. And the look are kind of important to me.
-No ecosystem

Fanatec Pros
-The looks
-Fanatec Ecosystem
-¿Better Pedals? / More Customize options

Fanatec Cons
-Customer support(I live in Spain and would have to RMA to England if i have any problems)

I think that FFB nd overall performance from both bases will be similar and i give them a tie in that.

I would like to hear from people that has Logitech G Pro Racing Wheel that can tell me how much TrueForce really adds. Mainly in ps5 games.

Like you I was tempted to experience the benefits of a DD wheel that also was PS5 compatible but wanting a high performance unit. In fairness, combining GT7 with VR2 and with this wheel is a great way to enjoy that game. Made even more enjoyable when Simhub is used to apply the benefits it brings in tactile immersion, motion etc.

Logitech, in my user experience, it is a good performing wheel as reviewers may have commented but it comes with some drawbacks too. Id say it was the best wheel to enjoy GT7 in 2022/2023 but moving forward it looks like this will no longer be the best option.

Hard to look beyond the lack of additional rim options (while other smaller companies can release multiple rims or additional products in a year). It has transpired that even after a year since release, we still do not even have any confirmed additional rims or shifters/handbrake for the PRO series. Thats even acknowledgement of something specific in the works nevermind an actual expected release date. Meanwhile other brands are seeing stiff competition within this area now.

Trueforce can certainly add to the immersion, just like haptics/tactile in general can do. Yet the issue is how its implemented and the lack of control the user really has in adapting the preferred output from each title. So in simple terms its a hit/mis thing.

The general problem is, most games do not enable enough individual volume sliders for each of the different or specific effects. So a common issue is that when you increase the gain on the wheel to make effects stronger, you dont have the ability to create your own output mix levels for each of these elements. Games may combine several elements under one volume control.

You may want kerbs to feel stronger but reduce road texture, and then perhaps tone down the engine feel. Yet if the game does not support each of those elements with individual volume controls, then you are stuck with limited options for the output mix thats generated. The annoying factor is, that it does not appear Logitech are making it within a developers interest to then improve or update TRUEFORCE implementation in supported titles. Nor does it seem they can even get developers to support it in popular AAA titles.

Fanatec will in my opinion become the better option, as you get the rims etc and although it may take time, Id expect them to not do the haptics any worse than Logitech have. I will consider keeping the DD+ as well though.

I have recommended in a post @ GT Planet that if possible they enable an option (highlighted on beta wheel shown on Boosted Media) which Thomas himself responded to.

We will see but having it possible to be able to use the DD+ via Simhub as a controlled soundcard would be a well received option. As with that, the community can make effects for the wheel no different than we do with tactile. This would mean owners will not have to wait months for supported titles to become available or unlikely but possible updates to titles that have agreed to adopt it?

The other wish is that Fanatec will do a better job of ensuring more titles are compatible or are better implemented compared to what Logitech have done. Part of all this may be down to partnerships/agreements, who are we to know but I have hope....

Some interesting new news over at GT Planet HERE regards new F1 and Gran Turismo DD EXTREME wheel rims that will be coming for the new Clubsport series.

EXTREME


Also see THIS

Full-Force not yet implemented...

 

[cnhoff]

I know thats not helping, but you should have grabbed a DD2 with QR2 for 899 during the black week sale two weeks ago...

 

[StuyoDGr8]

it is time for a wheel/pedals change.

I have two options:

1-Fanatec DD PRO + F1 Wheel v2.5 + Clubsport V3

2-Logitech G PRO Racing Wheel

The wheel has to have PS5 compatibility.

These are the pro and cons for both options:

Logitech Pros
-What leans me towards the Logitech wheel is TrueForce which i think and make it up a bit for the lack for tactile in ps5 games.
-Customer Support
Logitech Cons:
-I really do not like the looks. And the look are kind of important to me.
-No ecosystem

Fanatec Pros
-The looks
-Fanatec Ecosystem
-¿Better Pedals? / More Customize options

Fanatec Cons
-Customer support(I live in Spain and would have to RMA to England if i have any problems)

I think that FFB nd overall performance from both bases will be similar and i give them a tie in that.

I would like to hear from people that has Logitech G Pro Racing Wheel that can tell me how much TrueForce really adds. Mainly in ps5 games.

Here are my 2 cents as long term Fanatec user (don't get me wrong, would switch just to try something else, but have tons of custom wheels which will be nightmare to rework).

It is very easy to connect aftermarket H-pattern and Sequential shifters to the Fana whellbase - console support.

Never tried as my handbrake is loadcell, but Fanatec one being simple pot it should be quite easy to add DIY one as well.
It is very easily to make custom wheels based on Arduino and make your own.

Fanatec ship to EU from Germany. I am from Bulgaria, had issues requiring warranty - very satisfied with the customer support. Sent all gear back to them, then received exchange. Did this multiple times, mainly with low tier component (CSL hub, the first version, WRC wheel, P1 wheel bought second hand - I had the documents so they exchanged even that for me). The bad reports you see on Facebook I am sure every manufacturer has. Seen on comments below such posts - look like there are more satisfied customers like me, who just don't whine on the online forums

Logitech was leader before when there was no competition. I wouldn't want to get stuck in their ecosystem as it does not give enough options for future upgrades.
On the other hand you can use Drivehub with PS5, which opens up your options quite a lot...
As for the ne CS DD+ - it looks quite good with 15Nm and this price, it is tempting definitely especially when in future you can extend with high tied components from other manufacturers. Only issue is that you need to use their pedals. They are not bad, had V3 inverted, but moved to something much better and they still do not make high end pedals. What bothers me is that it is a brand new model and still has not proven itself, could be some hidden design issues/weak spots, like for example the CSL DD showed.

As for the tactile - @Mr Latte covered that in detail. Also the Formula wheel has rumble motors inside it, which are actually nice, but not sure all PS games support them (same goes for the built in rumble on the V3 pedals). Frankly I would personally look away from Logitech on the whole and would consider Drivehub as it gives much wider hardware support (never had one myself though, not a console user)

 

[Mr Latte]

I wasn't convinced about Drivehub, because while it can work. Their is no guarantee that it will continue to work with system or software updates.

Also I think someone prepared to buy the higher end products and wanting the best way to experience GT7 is more likely to buy an officially licensed product. To avoid additional issues or potential limitations.

An option with the DD+ for some that also play on PC. Might be a method to easily swap out pedals between V3 and a PC set.

I could be wrong, but seems odd that nobody is selling a converter that works with PC pedals to then operate those with a Fanatec setup for consoles.

 

[StuyoDGr8]

I wasn't convinced about Drivehub, because while it can work. Their is no guarantee that it will continue to work with system or software updates.

Also I think someone prepared to buy the higher end products and wanting the best way to experience GT7 is more likely to buy an officially licensed product. To avoid additional issues or potential limitations.

An option with the DD+ for some that also play on PC. Might be a method to easily swap out pedals between V3 and a PC set.

I could be wrong, but seems odd that nobody is selling a converter that works with PC pedals to then operate those with a Fanatec setup for consoles.

There is some work done, but pedals communicate with some internal protocol with the wheelbase, so somebody needs to break it I would guess.
Steering wheel communication is already long time available on GitHub, I was able to bring it in barebone form with very small form factor, but for pedals somebody needs to own a set and explore it. I doubt it will be very complicated, but too much work when you are on PC (I myself lack those skill though).

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Like you I was tempted to experience the benefits of a DD wheel that also was PS5 compatible but wanting a high performance unit. In fairness, combining GT7 with VR2 and with this wheel is a great way to enjoy that game. Made even more enjoyable when Simhub is used to apply the benefits it brings in tactile immersion, motion etc.

Logitech, in my user experience, it is a good performing wheel as reviewers may have commented but it comes with some drawbacks too. Id say it was the best wheel to enjoy GT7 in 2022/2023 but moving forward it looks like this will no longer be the best option.

Hard to look beyond the lack of additional rim options (while other smaller companies can release multiple rims or additional products in a year). It has transpired that even after a year since release, we still do not even have any confirmed additional rims or shifters/handbrake for the PRO series. Thats even acknowledgement of something specific in the works nevermind an actual expected release date. Meanwhile other brands are seeing stiff competition within this area now.

Trueforce can certainly add to the immersion, just like haptics/tactile in general can do. Yet the issue is how its implemented and the lack of control the user really has in adapting the preferred output from each title. So in simple terms its a hit/mis thing.

The general problem is, most games do not enable enough individual volume sliders for each of the different or specific effects. So a common issue is that when you increase the gain on the wheel to make effects stronger, you dont have the ability to create your own output mix levels for each of these elements. Games may combine several elements under one volume control.

You may want kerbs to feel stronger but reduce road texture, and then perhaps tone down the engine feel. Yet if the game does not support each of those elements with individual volume controls, then you are stuck with limited options for the output mix thats generated. The annoying factor is, that it does not appear Logitech are making it within a developers interest to then improve or update TRUEFORCE implementation in supported titles. Nor does it seem they can even get developers to support it in popular AAA titles.

Fanatec will in my opinion become the better option, as you get the rims etc and although it may take time, Id expect them to not do the haptics any worse than Logitech have. I will consider keeping the DD+ as well though.

I have recommended in a post @ GT Planet that if possible they enable an option (highlighted on beta wheel shown on Boosted Media) which Thomas himself responded to.

We will see but having it possible to be able to use the DD+ via Simhub as a controlled soundcard would be a well received option. As with that, the community can make effects for the wheel no different than we do with tactile. This would mean owners will not have to wait months for supported titles to become available or unlikely but possible updates to titles that have agreed to adopt it?

The other wish is that Fanatec will do a better job of ensuring more titles are compatible or are better implemented compared to what Logitech have done. Part of all this may be down to partnerships/agreements, who are we to know but I have hope....

Some interesting new news over at GT Planet HERE regards new F1 and Gran Turismo DD EXTREME wheel rims that will be coming for the new Clubsport series.

EXTREME


Also see THIS

Full-Force not yet implemented...

Thank you for the detailed answer.

I had never heard of Fullforce before. It's good to know it! .It would be really nice to have it working and integrated with our tactile rigs. I hope it becomes a reality.

I was aware of people complaining about the lack of individual controls for the TrueForce effects which ruins the inmersión for them.Hoewever i've also seen some videos where people say TrueForce is a game changer for GT7.

I am thinking of going for the DD Pro + F1 wheel + pedals this christmas and will wait to see how the FullForce development works out. I can always consider selling the base and go for de DD PRO+.