Motion system with 10000$ budget

[Pablo Roldan]

I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).

 

[Howard-Lin]

Hey Howard, Seeing your deep dives into the matter made me order a unit from you guys.. it arrives on tuesday!!

Thank you so much for your support!

We look forward to creating more motion related content in the future. My videos are long, dry, and tedious so I really appreciate viewers who have enough patience or interest to sit through it. Thank you so much!

 

[blekenbleu]

it is not as tight as i would like

That sounds like PT-Actuator chose poor belts;
better harnesses are easily tightened and loosened.
It appears that changing belts (at buckles mid-way up back) may be possible.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=951520215796294

 

[OlaGB]

The PT-Actuator Tensioner kit is finally here

I have it mounted and ive been playing a bit with it. I think it is a great addition, it can give you feedback on surge,sway and heave.

I find turning heave off the best option since it feels off having the belt pushsing you backwards to simulate that effect.But the sway and of course surge effects are great.

I find that the best sensations are archieved when you have the belt really tight pressing to your body from the start(whixh i can not really achive and it is not as tight as i would like) and have it tightened even more when the surge and sway effects kick in. The main thing to avoid is having the belt get loose and feel how it has to get tightened before you feel the pressure , since it feels something is pushing you towards the bucket instead more of a feeling of breaking.

ill try to tweak the PT-Actuator Belt Tensioner System , looking how to achieve to have the belt really tightened after the calibration process and still have traveling room to feel the surge and sway effects , while waiting to have the simtag bass springs to have the final setup of my seat and pedals before start the tuning of the tactile system and start playing with the audio effects.

Just got to test mine for a few laps, more tomorrow..

But now i’m pretty sure what you struggle with must be friction in the belt holes..

I still run stock pretension calibration settings, but run only on setting 6-7 surge, and 6 sway, 10-15 smoothing. This was enough to get the input i want for now (in iRacing).
This is with rollers on ballbearings in the beltholes, no friction..
I do not feel any need to run very high pre-tension at all..
I also have turned of heave for now, need to fine tune more..

Will be testing alot more the next coming days

 

[Clover11]

Looks like e-racing labs has a new RS series that has the same 150mm travel but is 30% more compact and 40% lighter than the DIY MEGA. Not really sure how it preforms, sound like it was just released. The price is tempting.

 

[RCHeliguy]

That sounds like PT-Actuator chose poor belts;
better harnesses are easily tightened and loosened.
It appears that changing belts (at buckles mid-way up back) may be possible.

Considering what good belts cost, that is to be expected.
I'm loving my Crow 6 point harness. It is a breeze to adjust.

I'm late to this party, but here is my take.

A solid tactile system adds much more immersion than motion does.
In VR it doesn't take much motion at all for driving on a track and it takes less tactile energy.

I love what my G-Belt adds and it is pretty quiet mounted right behind my head. As I said I'm in VR so I do have headphones ( off ear Index ). I think a good seatbelt makes a huge difference to comfort and seat belt tensioning feedback.

At one point I expected that I would eventually build a full chassis motion system, but since I added a serious tactile system to my rig and the G-Belt, I don't see the point. I have great traction loss effects at the front and rear. The engine is alive, the rumble strips feel real. I can feel speed building up on a straight. For motion I just have an NLRv3 seat mover with the motion turned down pretty far. It does give me a kick if I hit a curb. It will bank and I get a good sense of when the car regains traction from a slide. I don't use any surge effect for tracks. The G-Belt gives me a solid sense of how hard I'm braking, cornering and can reinforce other tactile effects.

The key is that the tactile system is what makes car feel alive. The motion, G-Belt, FFB and audio track in VR all work well together to create a very believable experience.

Having more motion does matter in a game like Dirt Rally especially when you land after a jump. and in flight simulators. Tactile comes in a close second in those cases, but motion matters. However on a track, I do think a very good tactile system matters more than motion.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Considering what good belts cost, that is to be expected.
I'm loving my Crow 6 point harness. It is a breeze to adjust.

I'm late to this party, but here is my take.

A solid tactile system adds much more immersion than motion does.
In VR it doesn't take much motion at all for driving on a track and it takes less tactile energy.

I love what my G-Belt adds and it is pretty quiet mounted right behind my head. As I said I'm in VR so I do have headphones ( off ear Index ). I think a good seatbelt makes a huge difference to comfort and seat belt tensioning feedback.

At one point I expected that I would eventually build a full chassis motion system, but since I added a serious tactile system to my rig and the G-Belt, I don't see the point. I have great traction loss effects at the front and rear. The engine is alive, the rumble strips feel real. I can feel speed building up on a straight. For motion I just have an NLRv3 seat mover with the motion turned down pretty far. It does give me a kick if I hit a curb. It will bank and I get a good sense of when the car regains traction from a slide. I don't use any surge effect for tracks. The G-Belt gives me a solid sense of how hard I'm braking, cornering and can reinforce other tactile effects.

The key is that the tactile system is what makes car feel alive. The motion, G-Belt, FFB and audio track in VR all work well together to create a very believable experience.

Having more motion does matter in a game like Dirt Rally especially when you land after a jump. and in flight simulators. Tactile comes in a close second in those cases, but motion matters. However on a track, I do think a very good tactile system matters more than motion.

This is my first serious simracing rig and from what i already own and what i feel works for me i do agree with you.

I've been playing a bit more now with the G-Belt and managed to get the start tension i was looking for (It was just a matter of adjusting the straps so i could tight them more after the calibration).I find the PT-Actuator Tensioner Kit very good and was surprised of how the sway feels. It has more than enough strength and as OlaGB said do not need more than 6 on surge or sway.

I have not used a racing belt before but the one that comes with the Tensioner Kit does not feel cheap to me , but i tried a Pro f1 simulator that was using a 3" belt and the feeling was better.

Happy with the addition of the G-Belt , next I will work on the tactile system that really needs it.... From there i will see if any motion system convince me.

Racing these days with the G-Belt made me wonder how it would feel with just the addition of the NLRv3 sear mover instead of a more complex full rig motion system. I want to imagine than when breaking adding the pitch to the G-Belt pull would greatly reinforce the feeling of breaking.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The NLRv3 has pros and cons. For me it works well because my rig has to be mobile and I roll it into the corner of my media room when I'm not using it.

However, without a serious tactile system, a full chassis mover wins hands down.

Let me further qualify this. I'm currently running an 8 transducer setup which is in the $2,000-3,000 range and I'm using multi-layer SimHub effects that are not public. I'm using Race Bass isolation and effects. Setting up this level of tactile with DSP's, amps, proper isolation, large BK's, TST's and exciters takes some effort.

More over there is no off the shelf isolation solution available for the NLRv3. I designed and fabricated something that was pretty involved and I have no plans to put that into production. Installing isolation is much simpler without a seat mover.

So all that said, these are my list of pros and cons on the NLRv3.

Pros:

• Small
• sips power
• quiet
• Plug and play with easy to configure software for just about every sim title out there.
• No issues with high pitch sounds etc..
• No EMI issues
• Has more angle than nearly all full chassis movers +/- 10 degrees for 20 degrees of motion.

For Dirt Rally having the seat slam forward when you land from going airborne really works well and a few parts of motion sell the experience. A seat mover accomplishes this extremely well. For flight in a helicopter motion with the collective stick is very nicely implemented and it handles barrel rolls surprisingly well in VR.

Cons:

• It can be over powered. I have my HE Sprint brakes set for 55kg and it can handle that. However if you were to get something like the HE Ultimates and configure them for say 70kg or higher, you would likely have the NLRv3 just stop mid race. I've heard multiple reports of this and I experienced this once when I panic braked very hard.
• It has no heave, which may or may not matter to you. With good tactile I feel the rumble strips and other things pretty well without heave, but YMMV.
• Acc/Brake effect moves you relative to the pedals. That never really bothered me, but I have that effect turned down to almost nothing and I rely on the G-Belt to feel braking at this point.

 

[crooksy]

A solid tactile system adds much more immersion than motion does.
In VR it doesn't take much motion at all for driving on a track and it takes less tactile energy.

I agree with you and disagree with you at the same time. Yes VR doesn't need much motion to trick the brain, what it does need even more than with monitors is accurate and detailed motion. Anything that feels slightly off is even more pronounced in VR in my opinion.

A good well tuned tactile system that compliments your DD wheel can feel great, I'm using 9 shakers on my rig with three amps but you are kidding yourself if you think it adds more immersion than motion, especially when you are using shakers to mimic suspension movements at each corner. The greater the suspension travel in the sim then the stronger the signal needed and it's at that point you can start to notice the weaknesses of tactile with a lack of pronounced detail and a slight delay that doesn't match what you are feeling in the wheel.

A good, fast, responsive, short travel 4 post motion system combined with a seat and pedal shaker using minimal effects that compliments the motion system would absolutely destroy a standalone tactile system in terms of immersion.

The big question is, is motion so much better than a well tuned tactile system to justify the additional cost, the jury is still out on that one for me. The DK2 is the closet that has come yet for me to pull the trigger, if it was just a bit cheaper I would have bought it yesterday.

I'm extremely happy with my GS5 seat plus tactile shakers, my upgrade stopping point might just be a GBelt. That would total at about $4k versus a standalone DK2 4 actuator at about $5k minus taxes and additional costs

However if I was to start all over again I'd probably get a 3 actuator DK2 then upgrade to a 4th and perhaps add a GBelt and reduce the surge effects to a minimum.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[dethgrind666]

i installed my DK2 system last night, and i am only using my buttkickers as engine rpm as everything else is delgated to dk2. gotta say its totally different and in vr i cant stop laughing manically.

 

[crooksy]

I totally agree

A tactile setup compliments very well a good motion system.

But a very good tactile setup is quite expensive .....

I spent almost $6000 in my tactile setup (2 x BK LFE, 4 x BK mini LFE, 1 x BK Advance, 1 x TST 429, 8 x DA exiters, 2 x DA pucks, 8 x amps, 2 x DSP) when I includes alsos the cables, connectors and the shipping costs.

For my SFX DIY, I spent less than $2000.
Even with the 3D printer, the total would be less than $3000.

---

If I had to do it again, I will go for the SFX motion system and add 2 x BK LFE and 1 x TST 429 (all 3 for the seat), and 2 pucks (1 each on the brake and throttle pedals).

And with the rest of the money saved...I will "invest" in useless upgrades again ...

Yeah it's all about timing really when someone started this hobby, there were so fewer motion options many years ago, so going tactile was the natural upgrade step after you got your first decent wheel and pedals.

It's great there's so much choice now but there's even more of a chance of new comers eventually wasting money on the wrong upgrades

 

[RCHeliguy]

I totally get that most chassis movers are more responsive than an NLRv3.
I'm not arguing that point, but just that transducers are much faster than either.

My point is that if I hit the rumble strip and feel the tactile instantly, that is covered without the NLRv3 having to move much.
I also feel the wheel slide at exactly the percentage slip I want to feel it instantly.
The G-Belt is taking care of my braking surge effect at SFX actuator speeds, plus cornering pulling the left vs right side.
If all the instantaneous sensations are coming through tactile or G-Belt, that leaves banking into a turn, or getting kicked by the the curb if I go over it and with the tactile kicking in. The key is that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT SENSE any latency in my NLRv3 because everything else is immediate and it is just back fill.

I'm running 2 x BK-CT's, 2x TST-429's, 4x Dayton exciters, an NX4-6000, an EPQ-304 and 2 x t.racks miniDSP's.
Depending on how you buy that, eBay or full price that could be about $3,000.

I'm not arguing that this is a cheap solution.
But considering at one point I was all lathered up to get a 6 DOF motion system and now I haven't got even the remotest itch for that, I feel I came out way ahead.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm extreme happy with what I'm feeling.

YMMV, your rig, your priorities. Just sharing my personal experience.

A sim rig is just a toy. I'm very happy with my toy, but different people have different buttons to press or boats to float, etc..

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

Speaking of latency, the AASD-15A servos react so fast, that motion is often preceding the visuals and the handling equipment (screen, steering wheel etc), to a point we had to add manually some latency via SimRacingStudio, so it doesn't feel weird...

 

[Pablo Roldan]

The racebass springs , brackets and plate are here.

I made a first attempt with the springs under the pedals and the seat.

I understand that for getting the best out of the springs you have to let them space to contract and expand and i am not sure how to achive that.

As you can see in the seat photo i have the seat with the structure where the buttkicker is attached resting over the racebass springs which are secured on the rig with the large bolts.It is very exagerated (i need to buy shorter bolts) and there is like 3cm of room for travel and i guess 3-5mm should be enough?.But is this a good approach or is it very wrong?.I understand that no matter how you do it racebass spring can not be very tightened since that would kill the racebass spring properties right?


Ill talk with Fabrice from simtag to see if i can have some advice on the springs and how the plate and brackets work together.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Pablo, are you on the RB discord server? You should have received an email with a discord invitation. Fabrice can get it to you. There are diagrams showing proper setup for preloading the spring tension and people to answer any questions you have.

The springs don't move very much in operation and will feel rigid. The whole point is to hold up to braking forces but still let the seat vibrate.

The bolts need to be tightened. There are additional rubber washers that I don't see in your pictures

 

[Callsign BH]

Pablo, a lot of great progress being made here man! Very nicely done, looking forward to continuing to follow along.

 

[metalnwood]

yeah, it looks like in your current setup you have no tension whatsoever on your isolator.

That bolthead need to be all the way down and if there is enough thread on the bolt underneath do it up.

I found using a spacer was an easy way to get them all done up the same, e.g. put a 10mm drill bit between the rubbers and do up the bolt until the drill bit is held just snug. Then get all the others to the same. you can then play around a bit as how much they are done up will change how it feels.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Pablo, are you on the RB discord server? You should have received an email with a discord invitation. Fabrice can get it to you. There are diagrams showing proper setup for preloading the spring tension and people to answer any questions you have.

The springs don't move very much in operation and will feel rigid. The whole point is to hold up to braking forces but still let the seat vibrate.

The bolts need to be tightened. There are additional rubber washers that I don't see in your pictures

I see, thanks

I used the info on the discord channel and mounted the plate and racebass springs accordingly.Took me 2/3 hours this afternoon and i am pretty happy with the result. I added the washers i missed previously and aimed for the 6,4 cm springbass tension. The vibrations are more evenly distributed.

I spent another couple of hours on Mount Panorama Circuit with the skipbarber tweaking a bit simhub parameters and the sensations are very good.

Still a lot more work to put on the tactile system both on the hardware side (planning on adding a couple of TST and some more exciters) and on the software side learning to make custom effects.

But the overall sensations are pretty good and already the simulator is fun to play with.

I have to rethink how to mount the racebass springs on the pedals.

Also a platform to avoid/mitigate vibrations passing to the lowers floors from the simrig is on the works.

 

[cnhoff]

Deleted

 

[blekenbleu]

I have to rethink how to mount the racebass springs on the pedals.

Ideally, an isolated heel plate with tactile transducers separate from pedals is wanted.