Is VR dead?

[RCHeliguy]

Apple's entry to this market should be interesting, but this video seems to poke a lot of holes in it.

Stand alone with hand tracking vs. hand controllers.
2hr battery life using a tethered battery pack.
Running a version of iOS.
Likely a few thousand dollars.

However as an uber facetime app with realistic avatars it may have a niche following.

Still the idea that Apple would introduce a product that they take a loss on, nevermind one that costs $3,000 seems like a departure for them.

 

[BrunoBæ]

I watched this video complete to the end.
The guy is a very good performer and story teller.
But honestly I dont think this Apple disaster will ever be launched

 

[RCHeliguy]

According to this "leak" the 50 series is supposed to be 2 - 2.6 X faster than the 40 series and they are completely redesigning the entire architecture.

With Dynamic foveated rendering, that could potentially drive a retina resolution display with a pretty good size FOV. Any guesses on whether Valve's next headset will coincide with that?

 

[blekenbleu]

MacRumors roundup on Apple AR/VR headset: "Everything We Know So Far"
Nothing new, but reasonably comprehensive;
4K micro-OLEDs, 120 degree FoV, battery at waist, foveated rendering, 8 camera see-thru AR,
iris-scanning authentication, gestures instead of hand controls, xrOS, WiFi 6E,
custom prescription lenses instead of eyeglasses

 

[BrunoBæ]

According to this "leak" the 50 series is supposed to be 2 - 2.6 X faster than the 40 series

Oh man that doesnt help me - because I have no more kidney to sell

ByêTheWay: What? I dont believe this price. Then I can keep my last kidney

 

[RCHeliguy]

All I want to see is a VR headset worthy of a 5090..

 

[Spinelli]

Current leaders in various specs ( price unlimited )

FOV - XTAL 3 VR 180 x 130 real FOV not theoretical
Highest ppd - Varjo XR-3 ( over 70 ppd in the retina display area)
light weight - Bigscreen beyond 140g

The Varjo XR-3 is nuts.

Current highest VR specs for "regular, consumer" headsets:

Horizontal FOV (degrees)
1st: 160 - Pimax 8K X [Large mode] (vFOV: 103), Pimax 5K Super [Large mode] (vFOV: 103)
2nd: 140 - Pimax 8K X [Normal mode] (vFOV: 103), Pimax 5K Super [Normal mode] (vFOV: 103)
3rd: 120 - Pimax 8K X [Small mode] (vFOV: 103), Pimax 5K Super [Small mode] (vFOV: 103)
4th: 117 - HTC Vive Pro 2 (vFOV: 96)
5th: 111 - Varjo Aero (vFOV: 86)
6th: 108 - Valve Index (vFOV 109), Oculus Meta Quest Pro (vFOV: 96)

Max Refresh Rate (Hz)
1st: 180 - Pimax 5K Super ("Potato" mode)
2nd: 160 - Pimax 5K Super (up to "Normal" mode)
3rd: 144 - Valve Index
4th: 120 - HTC Vive Pro 2, Pimax 8K X (w/ beta firmware)
5th: 90 - many headsets (including HP Reverb G2, Pimax 8K K, Varjo Aero)

PPD
1st: 42 - Pimax Crystal
2nd: 35 - Pimax Crystal, Varjo Aero
3rd: 21-24 (approx.) - Pimax 8K X, HTC Vive Pro 2, HP Reverb G2, Oculus Meta Quest Pro
4th: 19-21 (approx.) - Oculus Meta Quest 2
4th: 13-16 (approx.) - Pimax 5K Super
5th: 11-14 (approx.) - many headsets including Valve Index

Notes:
- PPD doesn't always tell the whole story due other visual characteristics such as "sweet spot" size, lens material (ie. glass), and other factors which affect overall optics
- PPD of HP Reverb G2 can be considered misleading due to an extremely small "sweet spot"
- PPD of Oculus Meta Quest 2 can be considered misleading. There are many reports that it has poor visual quality due to other factors in it's optics. This is why the Quest Pro has such a higher "perceived" PPD even though it's PPD is only slightly higher than the Quest 2's.
- there can be 2 headsets with the same PPD but one having more/less screen-door effect than the other due to other factors in the screen's design

*I will add weight later when I get a chance.

XR-3 has a limited FOV, price over $3,000

That's a bit of an understatement. It's $6500 USD.

None of those 3 headsets even has built in headphones and only one has a microphone.

That's a good thing for me and many others. Personally, I would never want to use a device's built-in speakers / headphones. I'd rather use my own headphones and if it's too bulky, cumbersome, or uncomfortable to wear with a VR headset then there are incredible in-ears / earbuds that can be purchased. Both will absolutely blow away the sound of any VR headset's headphones.

I guess a mic would be nice for those who like talking while playing VR games or those who play those weird VR chat games. I don't think most people would care like they do with things like h.FOV, v.FOV, PPD, refresh rate, weight, etc.

According to this "leak" the 50 series is supposed to be 2 - 2.6 X faster than the 40 series and they are completely redesigning the entire architecture.

There's never been a GPU, at least in the past 10 or so years, that's been more than 1.5x - 1.8x faster. I highly doubt the 5090 will be 2.0x - 2.6x faster but that would be awesome.

 

[demetri]

According to this "leak" the 50 series is supposed to be 2 - 2.6 X faster than the 40 series and they are completely redesigning the entire architecture.

With Dynamic foveated rendering, that could potentially drive a retina resolution display with a pretty good size FOV. Any guesses on whether Valve's next headset will coincide with that?

Too late for an April 1st joke

 

[RCHeliguy]

Too late for an April 1st joke

Yup not a joke.

They plan to use 0.3nm process for it and the big deal was that they are expected to approach 3GHz. I can only "assume" that means they've made some progress on power consumption.

We'll see.

 

[RCHeliguy]

That's a good thing for me and many others. Personally, I would never want to use a device's built-in speakers / headphones. I'd rather use my own headphones and if it's too bulky, cumbersome, or uncomfortable to wear with a VR headset then there are incredible in-ears / earbuds that can be purchased. Both will absolutely blow away the sound of any VR headset's headphones.

The Index's off ear headphones are pretty damn good. Most (more appropriately ALL) other VR headset earphones are crap by comparison.

I'm running an ~$1K IEM and boom mic that work very well together and sound very good, but I would still take the Indexes off ear speakers back in a heartbeat every time!

My bad on the Varjo price quote. I meant the VR-3 which has the same specs as the XR-3 but without the mixed reality cameras etc... It's about $3K plus a yearly fee.

 

[Spinelli]

The Index's off ear headphones are pretty damn good. Most (more appropriately ALL) other VR headset earphones are crap by comparison.

I'm running an ~$1K IEM and boom mic that work very well together and sound very good, but I would still take the Indexes off ear speakers back in a heartbeat every time!

My bad on the Varjo price quote. I meant the VR-3 which has the same specs as the XR-3 but without the mixed reality cameras etc... It's about $3K plus a yearly fee.

Darn, I didn't know the Index's audio is that impressive. I tried the Index in a loud environment so I couldn't test the audio good.

I wonder why the Vive Pro 2 is never mentioned. In terms of combination of PPD, FOV, and refresh rate, I would have thought it'd be right up there with the Index, Pimax, and Aero but I barely see it being discussed anywhere.

I just saw that Vive released a new model, the Elite XR. Looks like it's geared more for lightness and PPD rather than hFOV, vFOV, or refresh rate. Some quick research tells me it's a Quest Pro direct competitor but supposedly inferior to the QPro in just about every way.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Darn, I didn't know the Index's audio is that impressive.

I havent read up on it again but I can remember when the Index was launched then I researched a bit.
And found that the tiny speakers was not common headphone units but was actually some rather special tiny "ear speakers". With some kind of honeycomb drivers.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I havent read up on it again but I can remember when the Index was launched then I researched a bit.
And found that the tiny speakers was not common headphone units but was actually some rather special tiny "ear speakers". With some kind of honeycomb drivers.

They are off ear speakers and add to the feeling of immersion because the sound is more ambient rather than cupped over your ear or inside your ear. You get what feels like heightened spatial awareness. So when something is creeping up behind you it is much more believable. As you turn your head the directionality of the sound is excellent. The sound quality is excellent as well, but the convenience of just slipping them on without the added heat of headphones or the time to insert IEM's is also worthwhile.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Now that I have started I also remember that there was a tiny startup company that after finding the 3rd party producer of the Index units tried to make some similiar earspeakers but just "freestanding" so they could be used for all different VR kits.
This does say something of how high sound quality the Index solution is/was compared to other VR kits.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Now that I have started I also remember that there was a tiny startup company that after finding the 3rd party producer of the Index units tried to make some similiar earspeakers but just "freestanding" so they could be used for all different VR kits.
This does say something of how high sound quality the Index solution is/was compared to other VR kits.

Then there is something more DIY like this, but it involves building an inline amplifier and seems a bit messy.

Valve Index speakers holder for Varjo Aero, version 3 by webarchitect

Attaches famous Valve Index's off-ear speakers to the Varjo Aero HMD(head mounted display) in a non-destructive and elegant way for the best possible VR experience. Requires some DIY actions, like soldering, and additional equipment. Rejoice! The sound boosting software is not needed anymore...

www.thingiverse.com

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I asked Google Bard the other day on which VR HMD has the best audio and to my surprise the answer was Varjo Aero.
When I asked for clarification as it doesn't come with any, it said that it has audio socket and you can plug in any high end headphones you like, therefore it's the best.
My jaw dropped.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The absence of a feature makes it the best!

Just use your imagination

PS. I went ahead and put myself on the Bard waitlist. I've been focusing on the MS ChatGPT-4 side of the fence, but I should look at this too.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Then there is something more DIY like this, but it involves building an inline amplifier and seems a bit messy.

Looking pretty good - and an obvious solution.

BæTheWay: But the downside is that you got to have an Index to cannibalize

 

[blekenbleu]

You get what feels like heightened spatial awareness.

HP Reverb G2 use similar transducers; I recall reading that special signal processing is involved, not simple generic amplification.

 

[RCHeliguy]

HP Reverb G2 use similar transducers; I recall reading that special signal processing is involved, not simple generic amplification.

This explains a lot about how the off ear design is very important to spatial imaging and suspending disbelief and how using the shape of your ears to funnel the sound is important. It also covers some of their iteration and design process and why their design diverges from traditional headphones.

Ear Speakers - Deep Dive - Valve Index® - Upgrade your experience - Valve Corporation

The Valve Index Ear Speakers have been optimized for the specific experiential goals of virtual reality, which caused their design to diverge in interesting ways from that of typical consumer headphones.

www.valvesoftware.com

There is a reason that a LARGE number of VR headset reviewers have called the Index off ear speakers the standard and suggested that other manufacturers should just license them.