iRacing are censoring their official forums

[eobet]

I posted the folloing thread titled "are iRacing flushing their brand down the toilet", which may be harsh, but their latest business decisions are truly baffling to me so I wanted to get a discussion going on the subject:

Who here considers iRacing to be the pinnacle of quality?

iRacing spends years developing and fine tuning a feature before moving on to the next one (that's why NTM was so slow to roll out and why we still haven't got flat spotting yet). They're so hesitant to release something sub standard that they are still holding the Lotus back even though it apparently has been race worthy for some time (judging by the videos).

And now they are prepared to flush all that hard work down the toilet because of two poor business decisions?

First they want to get onto Steam to get at that market, but they aren't willing to put any work into it. Zero, in fact:

It would be our goal to place iRacing on Steam in a way that would allow the post-purchase experience to be no different than it is now. People would log into our website as usual, update their sim through our updater, race on our servers, use the iRacing friends functionality on the iRacing site, and participate in discussion through our forums.

Then they want to get onto more platforms (Mac/Linux), but they aren't willing to put any work into it. Zero, in fact:

Settle down folks. This is a third party project that is costing us next to nothing. There is very little we actually have to do because the developers are using our existing executables and running them with emulation software on the Mac and Linux operating systems.

How on earth does iRacing believe that this will go unnoticed? Do they honestly think that Steam users won't notice that their friend list doesn't work in iRacing? Do they honestly think that tech-savvy Linux users won't notice that their software is emulated?

Is iRacing in such a bad monetary position that they want to sacrifice their entire brand history for a couple of percent more customers, because this is very uncharacteristic for them. Why don't they spend the same amount of time perfecting Steam support and perfecting a Mac or Linux port like they do with everything else? Naturally they don't have time to do everything, but then why do a half-assed job willingly, when nothing else that they do is done in this way?

Are everyone blinded by the possibilities of getting more customers quickly that nobody sees any long term side effects by going from extreme slow development to suddenly moving very quickly, and without actually developing much to cater for these new customers?

However, the topic was up for around 24 hours before it was unceremoniously deleted, without any reason given. In fact, iRacing never seems to give any reason for why they delete or lock any threads, which is within their right, but it is rather strange for such a community driven game.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

Using the "hobbies cost money" card isn't a valid excuse for something being overly expensive. iRacing could swap to an optional subscription with a limited version free to play game like many other games have done, and they would make more money from it.

I don't like the "hobbies cost money" excuse (even though I use it), because iRacing costs nearly triple the amount from scratch it takes to get set up with an Xbox 360 and more than a few games. At the end of the day, it's still pretend race cars on a TV screen, unlike more legitimate hobbies like R/C cars or stamp collecting, where you have something physical to show for your efforts.

I don't see how going F2P would benefit iRacing. All I can see coming from that are numerous Cole Trickle/Jesus Christ/Adolf Hitlers running around in Street Stocks and Miatas, wrecking the field and micspaming YouTube videos or something. Nobody wants that, considering how the protest system never works and these people wouldn't get removed, only scaring off more people who might actually give a damn about rising through the ranks and getting better at the game.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Like I said, I don't know how well iRacing is doing financially but I can tell you that it would be massively more popular if it wasn't so expensive, I can't begin to remember how many conversations I've had with people who were put off by the price,

I think you don't understand what their reasoning might be for a premium price as its of course not the production price.

Have you considered that asking a steep prize for the service will also result in reckless idiots not signing up? With the current pricing model iRacing can perfectly fine make a bit of profit, have resources for development and have a healthy medium sized community with daily quality racing and above all the majority of their customers don't mind paying a high price.

If you open it up for everybody the amount of idiots will increase as well and as iRacing is an online service that is an issue and a potential risk.

Not saying that iRacing has no rammers or idiots but I prefer a casual pickup in race in iRacing 100x over a touring car event in a random RACE 07 or rFactor lobby as from experience the amount of idiotic behavior is significantly lower in premium prized games/clubs.

Golf Club Membership vs Football Club Membership.

 

[Ryan Vickery]

I can't argue with that, like I said I have no idea how they are doing financially, if they are doing good with the current system then more power to them, imagine though a free to play version that was limited in content and players were seperated from those with the paid version? There are games that do it, many of those players who get invested into the game will then move on to the paid version, in this case it would be a glorified demo, but a glorified demo could benefit iRacing.

If what I'm told is correct there are quite a few issues with filling races up in certain iRacing series now, and a lot less people generally online than when I was playing.

 

[Bakkster]

You can't compare it to other hobbies though, iRacing is the most expensive way to play a sim racing hobby by quite a margin, there are many other cheaper ways to play. The only subscription game that I can name that is left is World of Warcraft, everything else that I know of has gone free to play. If you look at the big online games

The only other big sustained subscription service is World of Tanks, notable because it also uses microtransactions. I believe it also has a F2P mode, but it's so frustrating being that behind on firepower people inevitably quit or pay up.

I'll definitely agree, lots of publishers have success with F2P. Team Fortress 2, for example, made more money purely off of cosmetic vanity items than they ever did off selling the game $5 per head. Whether it will work in the sim space, I don't know, but this is definitely one of the few places subscriptions are still working. Everywhere else has gone to F2P.

I don't see how going F2P would benefit iRacing. All I can see coming from that are numerous Cole Trickle/Jesus Christ/Adolf Hitlers running around in Street Stocks and Miatas, wrecking the field and micspaming YouTube videos or something. Nobody wants that, considering how the protest system never works and these people wouldn't get removed, only scaring off more people who might actually give a damn about rising through the ranks and getting better at the game.

That's definitely the concern. However, there have been tons of free trials over the last few years, and the doomsday scenarios haven't happened. Is the requirement to link to a CC or PayPal enough deterrent?

I think you don't understand what their reasoning might be for a premium price as its of course not the production price.

Have you considered that asking a steep prize for the service will also result in reckless idiots not signing up? With the current pricing model iRacing can perfectly fine make a bit of profit, have resources for development and have a healthy medium sized community with daily quality racing and above all the majority of their customers don't mind paying a high price.

Last we heard (maybe a year ago) iRacing said they were still trying to manage breaking even.

You're right sub fees will dissuade the wreckers from joining. Seems it also dissuades a large number of clean, respectful drivers as well. Given that participation is one of the biggest concerns of iRacers, I don't think it's wise to completely dismiss alternative funding methods.

 

[Bakkster]

If what I'm told is correct there are quite a few issues with filling races up in certain iRacing series now, and a lot less people generally online than when I was playing.

The number of members racing per week/month has never been higher. They're just spread out, and generally focused on the lower level series.

There isn't so much a membership crisis as a series structure crisis. The Proto/GT Fixed setup series, for example, doesn't end in time to join the Open setup series race. For some reason iRacing feels it's better to make those drivers available to race the Skippy or some other completely unrelated open wheel car, rather than let the sports car fans race the same car twice. Same with IndyCar's four series, all overlapping.

For the most part, this scheduling is the issue, not membership numbers. Most series that aren't being mismanaged (far too many are) continue to grow.

 

[eobet]

A few weeks later, someone linked my iRacing review. The thread was locked and deleted after the majority of users started to agree with what I said about the road cars being fundamentally broken.

I linked your iRacing review and though the thread is locked, last time I checked it was not deleted.

I think if iRacing is struggling it's because the gaming industry has changed and has left them behind. Aside from the absolute giants in online gaming (Blizzards World of Warcraft) all the subscription games have moved to a free to play model, with microtransactions, often an optional subscription that gives you extras/convenience. And you know what, they are making a killing.

I must admit I am not a fan of the free to play model. I'd rather have pay to own. The trouble with iRacing is that it's pay to rent. I recently posted this in a gaming forum, since almost nobody on the iRacing forums believes that the game is expensive, and that Steam users might object to it:

​

Here's a question for you:

• Picture one of the most advanced online games in your favorite genre is finally coming to Steam.
• There is no demo, and it requires you to sign up for a new account, separate from Steam that costs roughly $6-12 a month.
• You get a few free characters and levels that you can play with, but ranking advancement is limited.
• To get higher ranking, you need to buy new characters from a pool of roughly two dozen that cost $12 each (but they are as advanced as the game itself).
• These characters can't play on the regular levels, but need a new set of levels. Around four dozen of those are available at $15 each.
• Each time you don't want to play for ranking, but rather play with a friend, it will cost you $2.
• To view the server list for the game and launch it, you need to go through a browser (like Chrome or Firefox).
• The game gets regular updates (but these may require a browser too) and all features it has are rock solid. As mentioned, it's basically the most advanced game in its genre.

Would you buy this on Steam?

​

Needles to say, the responses on the gaming forum was overwhelmingly negative, but then when I revealed it was iRacing, people basically said "oh, yeah... those people are nuts, it might work on them". And on the iRacing forum, nobody commented on the possible issues but rather that I was the one who was unfair and that I had a mistake in that only one person needs to pay to race a friend, while my post could be read to imply that both needed to pay.

Have you considered that asking a steep prize for the service will also result in reckless idiots not signing up? With the current pricing model iRacing can perfectly fine make a bit of profit, have resources for development and have a healthy medium sized community with daily quality racing and above all the majority of their customers don't mind paying a high price.

But iRacing WANTS to open it up! Did you not read my opening statement in this topic? They WANT as many people are possible to play this game! They want the casual crowd, heck they even have touch controls for tablets these days! They want Mac users! How many Mac users even have wheels, and how many wheels even work on the Mac? (And they want Mac users who either don't understand or don't care that their version is emulated, hence casuals.)

The problem is that with their current pricing model, nobody that they WANT will want iRacing in return! And iRacing doeesn't apparently get this! Then, when you pick apart all the problems with the physics that they have, you really have to question if the price is even worth it to a hardcore sim fan.

Also, iRacing has iRating and Safety Rating, and that works, right? So regardless of how many people join, you should only have to experience wreckers the first couple of weeks, or if you do time trials and move up a class, you can skip wreckers completely. LFS to this day has free and open servers, and many times they have very effective server rules implemented to handle wreckers. It's a problem that the sim industry solved years ago!

But anyway, the fact that iRacing isn't even willing to discuss these things show to me that they are not only outdated in their game, but also their entire way of thinking (not understanding who modern social networks work), so I'm done with them. I actually posted a couple of iRacing screenshots in one gaming forum which gave me some interest in PMs and I recommended those who asked the game, but if anyone asks me today, I will say stay as far away as possible and play something else instead. iRacing staff and their fans are indeed nuts.

My prediction is that their steadily rising membership will flatline once Project CARS, Assetto Corsa and rFactor 2 have been out for a while. Playing iRacing will yield diminishing returns and their premium simply won't be worth it... unless they get their **** together.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I will say stay as far away as possible and play something else instead.

Personally this is the part I never understand of these kind of threads. If you have decided for yourself that you don't want to play it anymore and want to stay as far away as possible. Why are such threads opened then if you have no will to return?

Why not just dislike a game, shelve it and play something else instead that you enjoy. After all that is what a hobby is about right, doing what you enjoy?

I don't play iRacing either anymore for one main reason and that is that I absolutely dislike the iceskating grip and strange physics but I do have the hope that with constructive critisism (and a lot of patience, hello 2010 driverswapping ) it will improve over time and ill happily start enjoying myself again.

 

[eobet]

Personally this is the part I never understand of these kind of threads. If you have decided for yourself that you don't want to play it anymore and want to stay as far away as possible. Why are such threads opened then if you have no will to return?

Personally, this is the part I never understand with these kinds of replies. If you have decided for yourself that you don't want to analyze the actual topic at hand, why are such replies posted if you have no will to contribute?

Seriously, read my reply more carefully please. I don't say that I will stay away, I only say that I will tell other people to stay away. I'm already too invested. I already suffer from post-decision dissonance.



EDIT: Ok, when I said "I'm done with them", I should have said "I'm done with their forums", perhaps.

 

[Bakkster]

Seriously, read my reply more carefully please. I don't say that I will stay away, I only say that I will tell other people to stay away. I'm already too invested. I already suffer from post-decision dissonance.

If that's the case, you should quit. Seriously. Both for your sake (why do something you don't enjoy?), and because, as the saying goes, 'put your money where your mouth is'. iRacing won't change if even the people who hate it keep paying their subscription.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/
http://www.radiolab.org/2008/nov/17/

 

[Chronus]

I'd rather pay what iRacing is asking than what PD, SMS and other similar companies will ask for their DLCs.

Problem is: as eobet said, regardless of how much you pay, you don't own the rights to launch the sim (iRacing) , you can only enjoy it as long as you pay for the subscription (there is an offline version, but the cost - as I was told by Iracing - is way beyond what I can afford). You don't pay, well, you have a lot of content (which is not cheap) sitting on your hard drive that you cannot use.

But again: for what iRacing offers, I'd rather submit (when possible, anyway) to what they "demand" rather than inject money into the fat pockets of PD and the like.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

But again: for what iRacing offers, I'd rather submit (when possible, anyway) to what they "demand" rather than inject money into the fat pockets of PD and the like.

Any realistic racing game PERIOD would become an enormous hit if they introduced the kind of structure to their online format that iRacing has.

If Forza 4 were to be released on PC, and included a safety-rating progression system that started you out at E-class with the intentions of making it to R1 or X, as well as offered monetary prizes for winning R3/R2/R1/X championships, everyone would flock to it. I know I would.

I think the one thing that's making people realize the shortcomings of iRacing, is that they're able to momentarily forget how much money they've put into it, and realize that it's still just a video game, and very few video games are perfect. When it fails to have several gameplay elements that even console games intended for a casual audience have, and you're charging 10x the amount for people to use most of the content you offer, more than a few people are going to be obviously upset and want a change.

Locking topics and pretending problems don't exist, or listening to people who have no idea what they're talking about, while ignoring professional race car drivers who were the original target audience of your sim, is probably the worst thing any company could do.

Hopefully they will get their act together and start making better decisions when it comes to public relations, because no other company has had the balls to do what iRacing has done.

 

[Bakkster]

I suppose, to get back on topic, I still don't think iRacing just blindly silences any criticism. I've made some intentionally inflammatory critical threads about the scheduling, they lived. I see threads dying when they're nothing but shouting and insult matches rather than being critical. I could also come up with a list of a few dozen people who, if iRacing didn't want critical postings, would have been silenced by now.

IMO, it's all black helicopters and sour grapes that one's personal thread got deleted, rather than any actual trend in silencing criticism. Hell, I only remember one thread in the complaints forum ever being locked/deleted, and that was because it turned into a witch hunt.

 

[Chronus]

Any realistic racing game PERIOD would become an enormous hit if they introduced the kind of structure to their online format that iRacing has.

If Forza 4 were to be released on PC, and included a safety-rating progression system that started you out at E-class with the intentions of making it to R1 or X, as well as offered monetary prizes for winning R3/R2/R1/X championships, everyone would flock to it. I know I would.

I think the one thing that's making people realize the shortcomings of iRacing, is that they're able to momentarily forget how much money they've put into it, and realize that it's still just a video game, and very few video games are perfect. When it fails to have several gameplay elements that even console games intended for a casual audience have, and you're charging 10x the amount for people to use most of the content you offer, more than a few people are going to be obviously upset and want a change.

Locking topics and pretending problems don't exist, or listening to people who have no idea what they're talking about, while ignoring professional race car drivers who were the original target audience of your sim, is probably the worst thing any company could do.

Hopefully they will get their act together and start making better decisions when it comes to public relations, because no other company has had the balls to do what iRacing has done.

Well, even with its shortcomings, I'd rather support iRacing than some projects/companies.

But what you said, fully agree.

Bakkster,

iRacing has history in this regard (silencing criticism). So does SMS and Eutechnyx and a couple of other companies. But not all development studios or developers behave that way, I have read heavy, derogatory criticism directed at ISI/SIMBIN/Kunos at their own forums/sites, and no one is bent on silencing anyone.

The problem with iRacing is, the moment you have something to ask Dave, something that can be read as criticism, a pack of angry zealots silences everything and everyone doing the talkin'. From that point to the point where threads become holes filled with nonsense and insults, to the point of locking...very easy and linear.

Case in point: 1 month after 2.0 came out, Dave explained what was going on and what he intended to do with the NTM. While I and others tried to discuss it with him, the usual angry pack derailed the thread.

Zealots are to blame for many bad things in iRacing. Period. Pretending otherwise is an unhealthy exercise of imagination.

 

[Bakkster]

I don't dispute the zealots. I agree, both the irrational defense and irrational attacks are a bit much.

I thought this post was about censorship, though, which can only come from iRacing staff. I just don't see it, and whatever 'censorship' you might see is pretty small compared to what I've seen elsewhere. I'm thinking hard to find examples where iRacing took a legitimate complaint with reasoned discussion and just locked/deleted the thread. Can't think of any.

As you said, the problem is the 'zealots' who berate anyone who disapproves of anything, causing a big argument. THAT'S what shuts threads down.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

iRacing has history in this regard (silencing criticism). So does SMS and Eutechnyx and a couple of other companies. But not all development studios or developers behave that way, I have read heavy, derogatory criticism directed at ISI/SIMBIN/Kunos at their own forums/sites, and no one is bent on silencing anyone.

Eutechnyx is far worse than iRacing ever will be, although iRacing is scarily headed down that path. One of the worst forums I've ever been on, hands down, are the NASCAR The Game official forums. Both of Eutechnyx's NASCAR games were utter crap at launch, continued to be crap after delayed updates were released, and still, if you did not praise the game or try to downplay a lot of the serious issues, you were instantly given an IP ban.

I still remember the day NASCAR 2011 came out. Actually, it was a few days earlier. Some guy got an advanced copy of the game through his buddy at WalMart, and they livestreamed about four hours of raw gameplay, taking requests and everything. The forums were chaos before the game was even out, and then it mysteriously died a week later, when all of the negativity was silenced. Then you'd see waves of new members signing up to ask where the hell their $60 went, and they too would get banned.

Sad state of affairs for all oval racing games, really.

 

[WaitingForAC]

Here is what you are up against- iRacing Staffer Shannon Whitmore showing who he really is and releasing the name of a member who was posting under an alias and who posting nothing wrong in particular.

http://www.virtualr.net/iracing-com-lots-of-montreal-previews
http://i.imgur.com/wv5IUS9.png

 

[William Levesque]

Ok.... So who cares exactly ? lol... Way I see it, if it's really Flavien, all he does now is trolling. Shouldn't expect to keep bashing other games off with no real arguments without having his fingers slapped !

People get butthurt so easily nowadays

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Somebody should start a community for just trolls where they can hate each other all day. One central place for AC, iRacing, Project CARS trolls

RantSimCentral.com, VirtualRant.net, NoGripRanting.com, RantDepartment.com <--- just a few suggestions, please use them and let us real sim racing fans just enjoy our online lives.

WaitingForAC You are aware that having duplicate accounts on this forum is against our ToS? Especially when created for trolling purposes only.

I am sending this account to Simberia and if you bend the rules again ill sent your other account there as well.

 

[Struan Robertson]

 

[Niel Hekkens]

It wasn't Shannon himself

Apparently someone has created a account at VirtualiR using my name and is using it to post comments. Please ignore them and i have contacted VirtualiR regarding the issue. I've never had one there until having to create on and linking my official twitter account to it.

Please ignore any posts there authored by Shannon Whitmore. If you see comments using other iRacing.com Staff Names there you should hold them suspect.

http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/3203504.page
and
http://disq.us/8e7b8w