I dont get it why DD wheels using 20, 25 or 30 Nm

[Deleted member 963434]

I think about simracing community is more like simp community, they swallow everything, everything what devs say, what prices they make for game, prices for stuff. i mean i saw real life quick releses for real cars cheaper than those yo can buy from sim racing sites for your sim racing wheel xD
But im not talking about it, i want to ask why DD wheels using even 20 NM?
I mean OSW DD wheels build on mige 130ST-M10010 are always 20 Nm wheel. And i dont even mean why would anybody use 20 Nm as no real life car can have wheel so strong resistance, not even car without power steering. I droven opel corsa without power steering and i tell yo its strong to turn when standing, or at low speeds but when speed increases it goes lighter, and when i set my DD on 20 nm i think this non power steering corsa can output like 10-15 nm when standing still at max..
But i dont mean why would somebody use 20 nm on them wheel, as even car in real life than would give you such strong resistance dont exist. but what i mean i checked just from curiosuty fanatec dd1 and dd2 recomendations for settings for AC and i saw they recomend using 50% FFB in wheel and 50-60% in AC.... so wtf? i think? why as even fanatic released wheel that can output 20 nm and they straight away recomend to use it at 50% xD so why is it 20 nm then not 10 nm?
also i was wondering how OSW building around MIGE 130ST-M10010 guys wound that them wheel have 20 nm as i myself own this motor and i checked official spec at mige site and this specific motor MIGE 130ST-M10010 cant even output 20 nm, but it has 10 NM constant/holding torque (that it can hold at 10 nm and force be same) or it has peak torque of 15 NM (that it can shoot 15 NM force but not hold it for long)
So my final question it why TF? them building OSW around mige 130st-m10010 tell its wheel has 20 nm as its motor yo can check at official site not even outputs 20 nm by itself...
i dont get it...

 

[Kieran527]

To use your car example, that corsa has how much power from the engine? 75bhp, do you use that 75bhp constantly, no, it’s the peak rating of your equipment.

life cycle and duty cycles are taken into account when designing equipment, running at 50% duty cycle should increase life of components rather than running at 100% duty cycles.
Along with numerous other reasons.
you also get peak forces with kerb strikes for example than aren’t consistent, so you have the ability to replicate them more with higher ratings

id rather run my equipment at 50% rating than flat out constantly, but that’s my mechanically sympathetic mindset

 

[rikirk]

That's why simxperience declared there's no need to increase the power of their Accuforce.

Do you remember when everyone was mandating the use of the dd1 at 100% of its power, including the developers.

I have no idea what is needed to simulate an open wheeler, but for GT3 I set my wheel driver at 13Nm peak equal to 50% output.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

you also get peak forces with kerb strikes for example than aren’t consistent, so you have the ability to replicate them more with higher ratings

yes but as even fanatic suggest to use them 20 nm dd1 at 50% ffb wheel outputs max 10 nm. i mean if it was like that that you set wheel software to 50% to use 10 nm at max but when clipping occures in sim it use rest of non used 10 nm to not clip, but it even not work like that, you can set even 1 nm wheel force in driver then in sim 100% gain and you will clip and you not use rest of 19 nm wheel has.
so whats the point making 20 nm wheel and recomend it to use at 10 nm? why they didnt make 10 nm then?
also i dont think you feel such strong kerb forces on wheel as cars have suspension

That's why simxperience declared there's no need to increase the power of their Accuforce.

Do you remember when everyone was mandating the use of the dd1 at 100% of its power, including the developers.

I have no idea what is needed to simulate an open wheeler, but for GT3 I set my wheel driver at 13Nm peak equal to 50% output.

even no open wheeler ever would use 20 nm wheel, as non power steering open wheelers depending on caster outputs 4-6 nm resistance force on wheel

Autokraft Midget = 6.0 Nm (55 in-lbs)
Lola T332 = 5.5-8.5 Nm (50-75 in-lbs)
Dodge Viper SRT-10 = 4.5 Nm (40 in-lbs)
Lotus 20 = 4.0-4.5 Nm (35-40 in-lbs)
Lola T190 = 6.0-7.5 Nm (55-65 in-lbs)

i remember buying DD i was told i could use 20 nm and set lower gain in sims to not clip, but then i noticed even if i use lower gain, forces on wheel still raises too strong levels sometimes even 15 nm so i must reduce output force to have not such strong forces during fast corners, then i must increase gain to have stronger force on lower speeds, and then clipping can still occur as i use only 10 nm in my wheel

 

[AccAkut]

@mclarenf1papa do you have any real world numbers on hand? I'm curious as well (remember you saying the steering of the Oreca LMP2 was ridiculously light).

 

[mclarenf1papa]

@mclarenf1papa do you have any real world numbers on hand? I'm curious as well (remember you saying the steering of the Oreca LMP2 was ridiculously light).

Dangerous territory here with OP's history, but I'll bite.

Some Group-C/open wheel well over 25 at steady state (depending on corner of course). Broken power steering on a modern LMP would mean 40+Nm.

Road cars without PS are going to be in the 10-15Nm range generally, with circa 2Nm of friction. With PS it's all sub 5Nm for the most part.

Oreca is circa 10Nm steady state, Duqueine D08 lighter but I don't have the exact number.

 

[gecco]

The high Torque of DDs is excusively required for high downforce, non servo assisted race cars.
Most noteably Group C and old formula cars, but these did indeed put out 20Nm and even more in fast corners. Nik Heusinkveld did a good video explaining the steering forces of such cars on Youtube.
Search for: "Talk & Drive 12: Calculating steering loads from tire data and telemetry"

Other then that, only the occasional spike or impact will induce forces in excess of ~10-15Nm.
Manufacturers are concerned about safe operation and want to avoid law suits, so Fanatec suggesting to cut off torque at 10Nm, might be related to that as well.

Anyhow, even to have a bandwidth of 10Nm as compared to 2-3Nm from a consumer grade wheel, means to have 3-5 times the dynamic range to translate a given FFB signal to the wheel.
If my Simucube would only have 10Nm I would not miss much

 

[milord37]

If you want to reproduce the reality of driving a racing car, don't spend your money on a DD.
There is no correlation between reality and FFB, the FFB provides sim racers with information that they could never receive. So the wheel is the only physical contact point between the simulator and the driver.
A DD provides this information more precisely and with higher quality details.
is it essential to have 20 nm? I don't know, I'm not an expert on electric motors, but all fast sim racers will tell you yes! (Sorry for my English)

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Dangerous territory here with OP's history, but I'll bite.

Some Group-C/open wheel well over 25 at steady state (depending on corner of course). Broken power steering on a modern LMP would mean 40+Nm.

Road cars without PS are going to be in the 10-15Nm range generally, with circa 2Nm of friction. With PS it's all sub 5Nm for the most part.

Oreca is circa 4Nm steady state, Duqueine D08 even lighter but I don't have the exact number.

yes i would tell it too about non power steering road car, opel corsa i just drove i would tell when standing still to turn wheel its 20 or above 20 nm force to turn it, but once you go wheels turns lighter. i just took 90 degree turn at speed about 50-60km/h and i turn wheel only by my thumb, but it was so hard i keep my left hand near wheel jusk in case wheel would snap off my thumb, but force i felt in my thumb i would compare to 8-10 nm force of my steering wheel.
about oreca 4 nm, i saw ral life videos how GT3 drivers go out of pits and they turn wheel just with 2 fingers so GT3s may have also light wheels

i made this thread cause i remember setting up my wheel at first i was driving at 20 nm in wheel and 60% gain in sims, after time i was reducing and increasing gain, couldnt tell which feel more real, i lowered it even to 20 nm in wheel and 30% gain, then increased gain again to 40%. my latest and most used setting was 13 nm in wheel and 60% gain in sim that would be around 7,8 nm initial resistance, but then lately i set 10 nm in wheel also after reading fanatic reccomendations, as dd1 i know has 20 nm and fanatic suggest using it at 10 nm 50% FFB. so i made 10 nm in wheel and 80 gain in sim that would be 8 nm. that was my last setting week ago, but then i made week pause, after driving only real cars in real world without touching my sims, i went back into sim into bmw e30 in AC cause its most similar to my real worlds car bmw e36 and with 10 nm in wheel and 80% gain in AC i told myself now force too strong. saturday i just set 60% gain in AC, made pause till today and i tell it feels better, but i shall make another week pause from my sims, after week of driving only real cars i come back and tell if settings i currently use feels best. that is 10 nm in wheel and 60% gain that would be exactly 6 nm initial resistance, but already my telemetry software shows me this force go up to 8,4 nm sometimes.

ALSO i would forgot last thing on my original post about mige motors
why builders of OSW around mige 130st-m10010 tell its 20 nm DD wheel as yo can check mige 130st-m10010 has 10 nm holding torque and peak torque of 15 nm, so how they measured it can peak at 20 nm? im curious about it too

 

[GeekyDeaks]

so whats the point making 20 nm wheel and recomend it to use at 10 nm? why they didnt make 10 nm then?

Because then you would probably need to run it at 5nm to avoid over stressing the components. I'm guessing with this to be honest, but it's a common thing when you engineer something that sales and marketing want to use the biggest number in the blurb, however that number is usually peak and not sustained. When you spec up a PC, you should notice something similar with the PSU. The recommended wattage is usually quite a bit above that of the total of all the internal components, sometimes above 2x

EDIT: there is another thing that I forgot about. Often mechanical and electrical things don't behave well near their maximum (and sometimes minimum) limits. It's likely that the FFB signal could be distorted near the maximum limits of the motor or the internal circuitry.

 

[RCHeliguy]

If you want to reproduce the reality of driving a racing car, don't spend your money on a DD.
There is no correlation between reality and FFB, the FFB provides sim racers with information that they could never receive. So the wheel is the only physical contact point between the simulator and the driver.
A DD provides this information more precisely and with higher quality details.
is it essential to have 20 nm? I don't know, I'm not an expert on electric motors, but all fast sim racers will tell you yes! (Sorry for my English)

That isn't entirely true, but it's not entirely false either.

For example In Dirt Rally 2.0 when it was originally released real Rally car drivers felt like the steering was pretty accurate, BUT there was more artificial feedback in Dirt Rally 1.0 so users complained about how it felt until they added back some of the "fake" inputs.

Many people feel like FFB should include additional cues that you don't get in real life to make up for the information that you don't get from the seat of your pants.

So this varies completely from sim to sim and different sims have different priorities.

So one sim may load up the wheel properly in a corner and allow you to feel the wheel losing traction better than others. Another may allow you to feel every expansion joint and crevice in the road but doesn't feel as natural as another does.

Some sims use "effects" that they just queue up and others try to generate FFB using physics.

Because of this there is a disconnect between people who have motion rigs and tactile feedback that give them other ways to feel things. Once again people argue about how accurate or useful these are and it does vary from sim to sim how well they generate the information needed to drive motion and tactile systems.

So people with motion and tactile might like a sim that has steering that is more physics based without effects and that doesn't add additional information that they are feeling in other ways.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

well as i am pretty sure today DD wheel should output 10 nm force at max, im still not sure if i shall use 60% or 80% gain in my sims.
my measurements may be wrong at comparing real life driving to sim driving as i in real life not drive my car exactly as in sims cause im scared to wreck it and i must pay lot of money then to repair it, or forced to buy new car xD (of corse)
another thing i sometimes make tweaks to my ffb when little drunk and then i may feel car in sim little off as in real life i try to drive cars only when sober..
but my final thing is i shall try set 80% gain in sims as race cars feel better at tris gain, but road cars definately feel better at 60% gain. so my final though is i would use 80% gain overall, but for road car i may reduce "steering force" in AC to 80% and reduce caster in games that allow it and i mean pCARS2 and AMS2. that way i would find sweet spot.
As biggest problem in todays ffb to my opinion is that yo cant set max force mid cornering and then force to recenter wheel, in todays ffb its same thing yo increase gain then yo have stronger force mid cornering and faster centering force, but force mid cornering may be to strong so yo reduce gain, but then yo have good cornering force, but centering force too weak IMO
i mean in real life yo have always good, strong, fast centering force, but force mid cornering is so much linear and stable force. in sims it works like to have good, fast centering force yo shal increase gain, but then yo have too strong force mid cornering, and when yo reduce gain yo have realistic force when cornering, but unrealistic weak force when centering.. thats biggest problems in almost all sims (excluding iracing and raceroom) and i thought (maybe i was lied to it) that DD changing that, but it isnt.. it work same as belt driven, it just maybe put more details like flat kerbs, and have stronger force overall, but its same thing as balance between centering/cornering force
i think games most beneficient when i swap belt driven t500rs to direct drive was iracing and pCARS2

 

[Deleted member 963434]

im not sure everybody would understand what i mean so i tell it simpliest way:
in sims when gain is at 80% yo have realistic centering force, like yo would drive real car and at 60km/h yo turn wheel 90 degree to right and release it it goes back to center very fast and stay there. but then in sim when yo have 80% gain it works just like that in terms of recentering, but mid cornering force is too strong IMO.
then if yo want have realistic cornering force on wheel yo shall reduce gain in sim to 60% then yo have realistic weaker force mid cornering, but then yo make test at turning your wheel 90 degrees to right at 60 km/h and yo wheel not goin back to center as it does at 80% gain and as it shall go back fast in real life, it return to center slower than it should comparing to real life / or gain 80%. thats biggest problem with ffb today

 

[RCHeliguy]

So you want to apply a curve on the FFB so it is accurate around a center point and then dampens the response out as it gets further from a realistic value.

I would love that in iRacing for things like hitting a wall

 

[mclarenf1papa]

That's just a product of power steering. You likely wouldn't find that same behavior in an unassisted car (though vanilla SAT is wrong so you might feel it a bit).

 

[St3fan]

also i was wondering how OSW building around MIGE 130ST-M10010 guys wound that them wheel have 20 nm as i myself own this motor and i checked official spec at mige site and this specific motor MIGE 130ST-M10010 cant even output 20 nm, but it has 10 NM constant/holding torque (that it can hold at 10 nm and force be same) or it has peak torque of 15 NM (that it can shoot 15 NM force but not hold it for long)

Just FYI on the Chinese version of their official website, 20 Nm is listed as the peak torque sepc for 130ST-M10010. On the English version of the website this info seems to be omitted - I am assuming rated torque is a more important spec.

Link to the Chinese version website: http://mege.cn/products_info.aspx?css=1&&id=31

 

[Deleted member 963434]

So you want to apply a curve on the FFB so it is accurate around a center point and then dampens the response out as it gets further from a realistic value.

I would love that in iRacing for things like hitting a wall

i dont think dampening that force is unrealistic as its exactly what power steering do, it indeed dampen that force so yo not have to grapple against your wheel, and yo only sitting on chair in your room, image if yo drive real race car and not only grappling wheel but you must also withstand g -force.
as force iracing hitting wall, i think thats also iracinge made wrong as in iracing it works that you hitting wall and your wheel goes crazy, and in real life when you hit wall your steering rods are instantly broken and thus disconnected from your wheel so they in real life even not have such strong force when crashing as we in sim, video to proof skip barber crash yo can clearly see no force was applied as he hit wall, cause forca was too big to transfer this force from steering rod onto a steering wheel and steering rod break instant disconnecting front wheels from sim wheel, thats another thing wrong with todays ffb

like steering rods in iracing was made out of diamond that never breaks so all forces hitting wheel is transferred to steering wheel, yo can clearly see in above video when yo hit wall like that steering rod breaks instantly and no force comes to your steering wheel

 

[alfye20]

...Yo can clearly see in above video when yo hit wall like that steering rod breaks instantly and no force comes to your steering wheel

Dont forget that the non broken wheel (left one) is still connected

 

[Tom_Hampton]

in real life when you hit wall your steering rods are instantly broken and thus disconnected from your wheel so they in real life even not have such strong force when crashing as we in sim,

I've hit a wall at 90mph in a racecar. It hurts---my wrist was sore for weeks. Tie rods don't always break, and even if they do...a lot of force can be transmitted to the wheel beforehand. There is a very good reason racecar drivers try to let go of the wheel before impact---it can break your wrists, fingers and/or thumbs.

Driving an unassisted racecar on track takes actual muscle. Resisting centering forces at 1.5-2g with 5-6* of caster is a non-trivial amount of force. When I go for a race weekend, my arms, back and chest muscles are sore for several days.

But, you don't have to fight the g-forces in the car...that's what bucket seats and 6-pt harnesses are for. You let the seat and belts hold you still while you work the controls.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Still for a sim I think it would be nice to have a safety feature that allows you to load up the wheel in corners and gives you plenty of detail, but that dampens out any potential wrist breaking forces.

I'm not saying to make the forces go away completely, I'm just saying it would be nice to have something like dynamic range control with a high range where there is an exponential curve approaching a predefined limit.