FFB Question

[lemonbrahz]

Hey guys, just a general/noob question about FFB. I just got AMS and instantly the FFB felt great on the Pure 360hz setting with my G25. Only thing is that I dont feel ANYTHING that tells me the rear wheels are spinning making it pretty difficult to catch any sort of accidental power oversteer. Is this how the FFB is meant to be? I've only had experience with AC for a year or two where I did the LUT file for the FFB and looked up some tutorials here on how to setup the FFB for a G25/7. Also recently used a tutorial/FFB setting file on RD for the FFB in PCars2 (i had the same issue with PCars2, where I couldn't feel anything to tell me the rear of the car was coming loose) but the new settings I'm using feel a lot closer to how my FFB is in AC.

ALL other aspects of the FFB in AMS is amazing and felt "right" straight from the start.
Thank you, and sorry if this is a very novice question, but I couldn't really find any answers. Thanks again!

 

[Spinelli]

Hey guys, just a general/noob question about FFB...

Can you try the following?

Logitech G25 Control Panel
- Overall Effects: 100-125% (don't worry for now about clipping, clipping won't affect oversteer countersteer FFB)
- Spring effect: 0%
- Damper Effect: 0%
- Centering Spring: 0%

Automobilista Controller File
- FFB steer force neutral range: 0.00000
- FFB steer force exponent:...
I noticed the default AMS G25 controller file has FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) set to 0.69444 instead of 1.0 which is linear. I'm not sure if this affects AMS FFB and how much due to most FFB in the controller file not having an affect thanks to RealFeel/"pure" mode FFB but some lines in there still make a difference when using pure mode. You may want to raise this to 1.0. Or, if you eventually use a lower overall FFB strength from the Logitech control panel (like 70 - 90%), then you may want to lower this number to 0.6 or maybe even 0.5 or 0.4 as that'll boost your FFB linearity but without introducing clipping. Again though, I'm not sure if this setting works in 100% realfeel/pure FFB mode).

As far as I'm aware, AMS FFB doesn't clip in a significant way when set to 100 %, at least not with the official cars, unless the user has already messed with the FFB-related settings in the game files. There's some occasional mild clipping here and there, but that's about it.

It'll definitely clip. It's made to on purpose or else overall FFB would be too weak for the majority of users. However, realfeel files do not need to be edited. Lowering the in-game FFB has the same or similar effect. Some cars would have no more clipping around 82-ish % FFB, other cars in the low or mid 70s.

Take the Brazilian V8 to Suzuka and notice in the snake section (sector 1) that you'll feel the wheel not getting stronger mid-corner any more even though you can turn the wheel more with some grip to spare. Then lower the in-game FFB to around 75-82 % and notice now feeling the FFB load increasing well past the steering angle from the first test. It'll feel weaker until then though because overall FFB has been lowered but, ya, the software clipping from the first test will be gone.

 

[lemonbrahz]

Can you try the following?

Logitech G25 Control Panel
- Overall Effects: 100-125% (don't worry for now about clipping, clipping won't affect oversteer countersteer FFB)
- Spring effect: 0%
- Damper Effect: 0%
- Centering Spring: 0%

Automobilista Controller File
- FFB steer force neutral range: 0.00000
- FFB steer force exponent:...
I noticed the default AMS G25 controller file has FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) set to 0.69444 instead of 1.0 which is linear. I'm not sure if this affects AMS FFB and how much due to most FFB in the controller file not having an affect thanks to RealFeel/"pure" mode FFB but some lines in there still make a difference when using pure mode. You may want to raise this to 1.0. Or, if you eventually use a lower overall FFB strength from the Logitech control panel (like 70 - 90%), then you may want to lower this number to 0.6 or maybe even 0.5 or 0.4 as that'll boost your FFB linearity but without introducing clipping. Again though, I'm not sure if this setting works in 100% realfeel/pure FFB mode).

It'll definitely clip. It's made to on purpose or else overall FFB would be too weak for the majority of users. However, realfeel files do not need to be edited. Lowering the in-game FFB has the same or similiar effect. Some cars would have no more clipping around 82-ish % FFB, other cars in the low or mid 70s.

Take the Brazilian V8 to Suzuka and notice in the snake section (sector 1) that you'll feel the wheel not getting stronger mid-corner any more even though you can turn the wheel more with some grip to spare. Then lower the in-game FFB to around 75-82 % and notice now feeling the FFB load increasing well past the steering angle from the first test. It'll feel weaker until then though because overall FFB has been lowered but, ya, there's definitely software clipping.

thanks for the reply. I've already set my logi profile to Overall Effects: 100% and the rest 0%.

I'll try the controller.ini changes you mentioned. Just checked and mine is set to FFB steer force exponent="0.55864".

But I've also set my in game FFB lower and I think there's been an improvement already, the AMS FFB was so smooth on the G25 that I just set it to 100% and left it, but changing that to 80% has helped.

 

[Case_]

@Spinelli Please note that I didn't say "it doesn't clip", I said "it doesn't clip in a significant way".

 

[Marc Collins]

With Fanatec, you probably don't need all that much low FFB boost. I wouldn't know, but I'd guess 20 % might be all that's needed, plus personal preference plays a big part in this as well. But I'm sure Rasmus will give you a more relevant answer.

Correct. I would say 20% is absolute maximum. 10% or less feels best to me. It also feels perfectly "normal" at 0%.

 

[Heitor Facuri Cicoti]

Low Force Boost exists just to remove the vagueness of the steering wheel around the center while going straight. For cornering it has little to no effect.

 

[Case_]

That's not really true. You yourself have posted an image that explains its effect on the FFB, it's kinda surprising you don't actually understand that image.

The fact it removes the vagueness around the center is a side effect of what it actually does - it changes the FFB linearity curve and puts more emphasis on the lower end forces. So by doing that, it can (and does) absolutely have an effect outside of the forces felt near the center while going straight.

 

[Spinelli]

That's not really true. You yourself have posted an image that explains its effect on the FFB, it's kinda surprising you don't actually understand that image.

The fact it removes the vagueness around the center is a side effect of what it actually does - it changes the FFB linearity curve and puts more emphasis on the lower end forces. So by doing that, it can (and does) absolutely have an effect outside of the forces felt near the center while going straight.

From what I've always read about minimum FFB in multiple sims, it doesn't adjust the FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) curve. It just starts the FFB at a higher percentage. So let's say you set minumum FFB to 8%. Any FFB signal that would normally be less than 8% power will register as 8%. From 8% and on though, the FFB curve is still linear/straight to 100%.

Minimum FFB only tells what % the FFB should start at, it doesn't make any changes to linearity from the point of minumum FFB output to 100% FFB output.

 

[Case_]

From what I've always read about minimum FFB in multiple sims, it doesn't adjust the FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) curve.

We're not talking about minimum FFB in multiple sims, though. We are talking about the "low force boost" option in AMS.

 

[RasmusP]

From what I've always read about minimum FFB in multiple sims, it doesn't adjust the FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) curve. It just starts the FFB at a higher percentage. So let's say you set minumum FFB to 8%. Any FFB signal that would normally be less than 8% power will register as 8%. From 8% and on though, the FFB curve is still linear/straight to 100%.

Minimum FFB only tells what % the FFB should start at, it doesn't make any changes to linearity from the point of minumum FFB output to 100% FFB output.

This is correct for most sims but not for ams. In AMS the ffb output actually becomes a curve, like shown in the image from the official forums.
It still starts at 0% but rises up a lot quicker. That's why with a logitech wheel, compared to other sims, in ams you get a tight and heavy wheel without too much clipping or a hard "notch" in the center position.

With the usual minimum force setting you have to find the compromise between a still slightly dead center or a harsh notch in the center position.
Mostly resulting in a little notch with minimized dead feeling.

For ams you rather have to find the compromise of a heavy wheel and oscillation. The notch is barely there) existent

I used a similar approach with my lut for assetto corsa. Although my curve is a lot more rounded for the first 20% and then is totally linear to 100%.

 

[Spinelli]

We're not talking about minimum FFB in multiple sims, though. We are talking about the "low force boost" option in AMS.

I always thought AMS's "low force boost" was the minimum FFB option introduced in other sims. I never knew it adjusted the overall FFB linearity curve rather than being a minimum FFB boost like in RF2 (and I think some others sims but I can't remember). My mistake, thanks.

EDIT: The AMS default G25 profile has the controller file line called "FFB steer force exponent" set to about 0.7 instead of 1.0 (1.0 is perfectly linear, ie. a straight line, no curve) and that very setting (been there since the rFactor 1 days, possibly before) is the FFB linearity (or "curve"). How much you guys wanna bet that Reiza's "low force boost" is literally just adjusting this value in the controller file?...

EDIT 2: I changed the low force boost to 50% in-game then checked my controller file and "FFB steer force exponent" was indeed changed from 1.0 to 0.75. I knew it! Haha!

So, if Reiza's in-game low force boost option is changing, and only changing, the controller file's "FFB steer force exponent" then the low force boost is literally the overall FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) setting with a different name (better for the average player to understand and therefore make use of).

 

[RasmusP]

I always thought AMS's "low force boost" was the minimum FFB option introduced in other sims. I never knew it adjusted the overall FFB linearity curve rather than being a minimum FFB boost like in RF2 (and I think some others sims but I can't remember). My mistake, thanks.

EDIT: The AMS default G25 profile has the controller file line called "FFB steer force exponent" set to about 0.7 instead of 1.0 (1.0 is perfectly linear, ie. a straight line, no curve) and that very setting (been there since the rFactor 1 days, possibly before) is the FFB linearity (or "curve"). How much you guys wanna bet that Reiza's "low force boost" is literally just adjusting this value in the controller file?...

EDIT 2: I changed the low force boost to 50% in-game then checked my controller file and "FFB steer force exponent" was indeed changed from 1.0 to 0.75. I knew it! Haha!

So, if Reiza's in-game low force boost option is changing, and only changing, the controller file's "FFB steer force exponent" then the low force boost is literally the overall FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) setting with a different name (better for the average player to understand and therefore make use of).

Isn't the normal steer force exponent a symmetrical curve though?
Like the biggest deviation to the 1.0 ffb being at 50/50 but the low force boost is combining that with some "priority" for the lower forces.
Of course, I don't know how the standard "FFB steer force exponent" is shaped though...

What I mean:

 

[Spinelli]

Isn't the normal steer force exponent a symmetrical curve though?

I think the only way to know exactly how the FFB steer force exponent curve works is either to hack the EXE to find out what it's hardcoded to or Reiza or ISI telling us.

With Reiza having the license to change the core-coding of the ISI engine, maybe they even changed the hardcoded FFB steer force exponent curve compared to the original rFactor/ISI curve.

Or maybe AMS is using a combination of the original, untouched ISI FFB steer force exponent setting/curve and some other hardcoded setting they implemented themselves. Both settings would therefore work in conjunction with one-another (something you're describing maybe).

I'm not sure but, ya, maybe it's not just simply using the old FFB steer force exponent setting but that's at least part of it.

 

[Domagoj Lovrić]

I always thought AMS's "low force boost" was the minimum FFB option introduced in other sims. I never knew it adjusted the overall FFB linearity curve rather than being a minimum FFB boost like in RF2 (and I think some others sims but I can't remember). My mistake, thanks.

EDIT: The AMS default G25 profile has the controller file line called "FFB steer force exponent" set to about 0.7 instead of 1.0 (1.0 is perfectly linear, ie. a straight line, no curve) and that very setting (been there since the rFactor 1 days, possibly before) is the FFB linearity (or "curve"). How much you guys wanna bet that Reiza's "low force boost" is literally just adjusting this value in the controller file?...

EDIT 2: I changed the low force boost to 50% in-game then checked my controller file and "FFB steer force exponent" was indeed changed from 1.0 to 0.75. I knew it! Haha!

So, if Reiza's in-game low force boost option is changing, and only changing, the controller file's "FFB steer force exponent" then the low force boost is literally the overall FFB linearity (AKA sensitivity) setting with a different name (better for the average player to understand and therefore make use of).

I think we have already mentioned what that value is and what ffb low force boost does before. We didn't introduce new value into controller file but that is what it does essentially, changes linearity of FFB curve. It was altered in it's range and "underhood" slighlty, in rFactor it's range was up to 2.0 (probably), in our case it goes from 0.5 to 1.0 (so in game 0% would set that value to 1.0; 100% would set it to 0.5). 99% sure this was covered on offical forums, maybe beta suborum... Setup like this, it won't increase high forces much, forces that are "1.0" so 100% won't be affected at all as pow(1.0, y) == 1.0, regardless of y. (since you wanna know all the details, incoming values to that calculation are 0.0 to 1.0).

 

[Spinelli]

...

I wasn't expecting an official reply, let alone details. Thanks!

 

[Heitor Facuri Cicoti]

Guys, all of this information was on this post I linked before:

https://forum.reizastudios.com/thre...and-what-is-new-about-it.45/page-4#post-11280

Specially this part:

"With regards to the "merits" of the slider - the code to change the FFB curve was already there via "FFB steer force exponent", we just made it customizable with the slider, and in doing so addressed a common request to improve the low force FFB for lower range wheels, which in turn also allowed us to globably reduced clipping."

 

[Spinelli]

Guys, all of this information was on this post I linked before

Sorry Heitor. I missed that.

I should have realised the AMS low force boost was different to minimim ffb when I saw values of 50% and 80% floating around the web. With a minimum ffb setting, you'd probably never go more than 8-15 %, lol.