F1 standings if cheats were actually punished.

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/8838562/F1_Abu_Dhabi_2012_Front_Wing_Movement_Collection

Watch this Video guys

 

[Jordi Casademunt]

Kartik, I watched the video and I'm not sure what you wanted to prove.

You can see that Williams, Force India, Ferrari, Sauber and Mercedes have wings that barely moved at all when they took the corner. Button hit the kerb and it didn't move. Hamilton's wing did move a bit, but in a seesaw manner, which doesn't seem to have that much effect. And Toro Rosso's wing moved a bit.

And then there's the Red Bull, which has a wing made of jelly.

And by the way, I stand by my previous post. Red Bull are most certainly not cheating. They are playing the loophole game, and winning. They have a car in the grey zone, which means they can't be disqualified, since the FIA didn't do a proper rule book.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Kartik, I watched the video and I'm not sure what you wanted to prove.

You can see that Williams, Force India, Ferrari, Sauber and Mercedes have wings that barely moved at all when they took the corner. Button hit the kerb and it didn't move. Hamilton's wing did move a bit, but in a seesaw manner, which doesn't seem to have that much effect. And Toro Rosso's wing moved a bit.

And then there's the Red Bull, which has a wing made of jelly.

And by the way, I stand by my previous post. Red Bull are most certainly not cheating. They are playing the loophole game, and winning. They have a car in the grey zone, which means they can't be disqualified, since the FIA didn't do a proper rule book.

I just found the Video on other site which clearly shows how all other cars having their Wing Movement and but not to prove any thing.
A Clear Comparison which enables a in depth discussion
I don't want this kind of situations The FIA can't prepare a Perfect rule book and when any one uses the grey area it was called Cheating instead of Innovation.

 

[TheHemps]

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/8838562/F1_Abu_Dhabi_2012_Front_Wing_Movement_Collection

Watch this Video guys

Cheers.

Video proves my point. Tiny, tiny little impact movements. Sauber's wing just didnt' move at all, Williams a tiny bit, McLaren a tiny bit. Toro Rosso's moved the most if anything.

But this!

You're obviously a Red Bull fan, which is cool.

I just wish I had stuck by McLaren when they got banned for cheating instead of, you know, accepting the truth and moving on like I did.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Chris Hempsall
I'm a Redbull fan but before that i'm a F1 FAN since 1998
I just wanted to show how every one's wing was moving but that doesn't mean RBR was CHEATING they found a better way in the rules which we may don't know.
I said already that we need to blame the FIA first to allow the loop holes not the teams
Until they say it was Illegal it was Legal

 

[TheHemps]

I've agreed, that the main portion of blame goes to FIA.

The way I'm seeing it, is that of Benetton in 1994. Everyone knew they were cheating. It was clear as day. Every driver knew, every team principal knew, every fan knew, but it passed all the scrutineers tests.

At the end of it all, as far as the rules go, you are the one who is right, the FIA say it is a legal car, when it clearly isn't according to the rules.

But, until the FIA take action, what I write can not be correct, only opinion. But I believe it's an opinion formed on research and looking at whats in front of me.

You say ''until they say it was illegal it was legal''

I say ''Why are they not saying it's illegal, when according to the rules as written, it's clearly illegal?''

This debate could go on forever, but I'm enjoying it

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

You say ''until they say it was illegal it was legal''

I say ''Why are they not saying it's illegal, when according to the rules as written, it's clearly illegal?''

I say "they found a better way in the rules which we may don't know"
that's why they are passing the tests and every thing.

 

[ufunacaoenn]

I was thinking about the movement of the wing and it made me wonder since someone picked up the picture of the 2006 Renault and the GIF pic of the nose of the car when RBR were going for a pit.

What if the front end of the nose is so jelly like that the two sticks that hold the front wing are moving up and down on the front part of the sticks due to the jelly like nose, which causes of course the front wing to move like it does (up and down, due to it's stiffness) and what if the rear end of those sticks are on a very hard part of the nose and their for stay stationary and giving us this clear effect of the wing moving like it does? (just a theory!)

As far as I know about the rules of moving wings, that would be legal as the wing is moving from a chain reaction that starts with braking and hitting the curbs to the jelly like front end of the nose.

 

[TheHemps]

Yes, I think it is the nose causing the whole wing to move. So it's not the wing 'flexing' as such, the wing is following the movement of the nose it's attached to.

It looks although they maybe using a mass damper system (just a guess, calm down )
which was banned in 2006, after Alonso won 2 world titles with Renault, who used a mass damper design.

This must have been picked up on in the F1 world by now. Hopefully an explanation will be forthcoming.

 

[Michael Brown]

Not really though is it. you're talking about 2 seperate seasons. I'm talking about one week to the next.

No it is the same situation. They raced with something that was legal and now is illegal. Any team could do it. Mercedes had a similar engine map to Red Bull's before the banning.

Put aside your bias against Red Bull and you'll see this is like 2009, when Brawn exploited a loophole with their double diffuser. Since the double diffuser was eventually banned, does that mean Brawn cheated and should have their points and championships revoked? Of course not. There was a period of time when it was legal and now it is illegal. It doesn't matter if the rule was clarified after the season or during the season. Anybody could use it, it's just that one team used it first.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Put aside your bias against Red Bull and you'll see this is like 2009, when Brawn exploited a loophole with their double diffuser. Since the double diffuser was eventually banned, does that mean Brawn cheated and should have their points and championships revoked? Of course not. There was a period of time when it was legal and now it is illegal. It doesn't matter if the rule was clarified after the season or during the season. Anybody could use it, it's just that one team used it first.

May be the Only team to do it at this stage
Redbull has the Money and Intelligence to keep their Team at the Front with their Development pace.

 

[Chris Cronshaw]

Cheers.

Video proves my point. Tiny, tiny little impact movements. Sauber's wing just didnt' move at all, Williams a tiny bit, McLaren a tiny bit. Toro Rosso's moved the most if anything.

But this!

You're obviously a Red Bull fan, which is cool.

I just wish I had stuck by McLaren when they got banned for cheating instead of, you know, accepting the truth and moving on like I did.

That one you can see the nose, wing pillars and wing all flexing. That's just ridiculous that they're getting away with that kinda thing.

 

[Chris Cronshaw]

No it is the same situation. They raced with something that was legal and now is illegal. Any team could do it. Mercedes had a similar engine map to Red Bull's before the banning.

Put aside your bias against Red Bull and you'll see this is like 2009, when Brawn exploited a loophole with their double diffuser. Since the double diffuser was eventually banned, does that mean Brawn cheated and should have their points and championships revoked? Of course not. There was a period of time when it was legal and now it is illegal. It doesn't matter if the rule was clarified after the season or during the season. Anybody could use it, it's just that one team used it first.

Double diffuser is completely different.
There were 3 teams that read the rules in one manner regarding the double diffuser.

Williams
Brawn
Toyota

All had a double diffuser at the start of 09, Brawn utilised it best.

What Chris has raised is one team only breaching the rules. As the regs state the body work must remain rigid and the nose cone is quite clearly not

 

[Michael Brown]

Double diffuser is completely different.
There were 3 teams that read the rules in one manner regarding the double diffuser.

Williams
Brawn
Toyota

All had a double diffuser at the start of 09, Brawn utilised it best.

What Chris has raised is one team only breaching the rules. As the regs state the body work must remain rigid and the nose cone is quite clearly not

What i was talking about was how he wants Red Bull to be punished because they raced with a car that was legal at the time, but not now.

 

[Ketnix]

Renaults 'mass damper' system back in 06.

 

[TheHemps]

What i was talking about was how he wants Red Bull to be punished because they raced with a car that was legal at the time, but not now.

At no point this season has moveable aero been allowed. At no point since like 1872 (more recent maybe), have holes been allowed in the floor..

You know what, it's cool. Red Bull can just keep exploiting and being sneaky to win and continue to go unpunished, as they have an unlimited budget (which is clearly making it's way to 'certain other places' right now). They make Ferrari and McLaren look like paupers with the money they spend. No wonder they didn't want an RRA.

Yes, I do have Red Bull bias. They are absolute acid for F1. But let's just let 'em get on with it, you'll get the sport you deserve.

 

[TheHemps]

That one you can see the nose, wing pillars and wing all flexing. That's just ridiculous that they're getting away with that kinda thing.

Apparently it's all an illusion

If they get away with the blatant flaunting of the rules at Abu Dhabi, that has been documented and proven about 50 times since Sunday then I'm cancelling my Sky Subscription and I'll just stream the races.

If they can't make a fair sport, they won't be getting my money.

 

[Chris Cronshaw]

At no point this season has moveable aero been allowed. At no point since like 1872 (more recent maybe), have holes been allowed in the floor..

You know what, it's cool. Red Bull can just keep exploiting and being sneaky to win and continue to go unpunished, as they have an unlimited budget (which is clearly making it's way to 'certain other places' right now). They make Ferrari and McLaren look like paupers with the money they spend. No wonder they didn't want an RRA.

Yes, I do have Red Bull bias. They are absolute acid for F1. But let's just let 'em get on with it, you'll get the sport you deserve.

Did you know between Hungary and Monza last season Red Bull spent 80 Million dollars on development on the 2011 car...... 80 Million!!!!!!! Ross Brawn said (and I'm paraphrasing here) "I can't believe that a team has managed to spend that much when were supposed to be closed down for 3 of those 5 weeks. It makes you wonder why they don't want the RRA doesn't it?"

I don't think Ferrari were spending that much on development over a 5 week period during the testing era.

 

[TheHemps]

Did you know between Hungary and Monza last season Red Bull spent 80 Million dollars on development on the 2011 car...... 80 Million!!!!!!! Ross Brawn said (and I'm paraphrasing here) "I can't believe that a team has managed to spend that much when were supposed to be closed down for 3 of those 5 weeks. It makes you wonder why they don't want the RRA doesn't it?"

I don't think Ferrari were spending that much on development over a 5 week period during the testing era.

E80 million is more than you can win in prize money. They spent £225 million on the 2011 car which got them the championship last season.

£225 MILLION!!

That's sick man. They are ruining F1.

 

[Chris Cronshaw]

It is a sad state of affairs isn't it

Alfa Romeo
Mercedes
Ferrari
Lotus
Brabham
McLaren
Williams
And
Red Bull (a fizzy drinks company)

the greatest formula one outfits of all time