Electric Cars - The Future of Consumer Motoring?

[Richard Wilks]

Im not saying this is bull **** - because Im a nice guy - but it is close.
The nuclear reactor lobby are still trying to tell people how green nuclear power is.
But if you include the ressources and money needed to store the nuclear waste then - even if thorium reactors is ever build - then the economics and impact on the environment for the next 500 - 1000 years(!!) makes REAL green energy sources much more attractive both in the short and long run.

Here is a link to some rather fair calculation of the REAL costs of nuclear power:
http://www.grisanik.com/blog/real-cost-of-nuclear-energy/


CatsAreTheWorstDogs: My own country Denmark covered 43.4% of its the total electricity consumption in 2017 with wind power. In 2020 it will be 50%. And estimated 84% in 2035.
So no reason to talk about fake green energy anymore

Ok first, that guy in the link is calculating costs based on CURRENT technology for a problem 240 years in the future? Now that's a stretch if i ever saw one.. So maybe you should rethink exactly what is "bull..." here. I would be much more of the general interest to indeed develop solutions for the challenges of nuclear energy and the expenses related with it's logistics, than many of the other utopian solutions promised for years as the "next big thing".


As for your wind power in your country, that is cute Now try power the numerous factories in china for example, and cities the size of shangai and Sao Paulo with cute windmills

 

[RCHeliguy]

The big issue with Wind and Solar power is the exact same as electric cars, storage.

Wind and Solar are peaky and unreliable. There are also certain locations that work better with either Wind or Solar. Of the two, solar is the one that is dropping in price faster and it requires the least maintenance.

However without large storage batteries to keep everything running at night and when the wind dies down, they can not be made to handle the whole grid.

There are currently at least 4 serious contenders for the "next generation" of batteries past our current Li based solutions. A few of them will have life spans longer than an average person's life.

Cycles and longevity are two big issues. The newer batteries use different materials and can handle orders of magnitude more cycles.

Where this comes together is that cars parked connected to the grid or being charged by local solar cells could be used as part of our power generation system.

The power utilities have already designed systems that would allow them to remotely control the charging of cars at night to best utilize the grid so everyone doesn't start charging at midnight.

So at some point there may be some synergy between electric cars and our power utilities.

 

[Esox71]

Where would you get all this electricity needed if everyone had one??
You would need nuclear power stations thats for sure.

 

[Snailer]

Incorrect. What people fail to see is that electric is simply not sustainable.
Electric is just a step to something else, while gladly taking your money now.
Car companies are only onboard with electric because it's 'the thing to do' and there's money to be made all the while claiming they are saving the world. Then when electric fails they will say 'Hey, here's this new tech. Buy this now. what's another 100 grand? It's simple economics. ICE cars are so much cheaper all around and you don't have to worry about finding a place to charge and getting home.

This is simply untrue. Between recycling of batteries and renewable energy becoming more and more the norm, there's no reason to think that EVs wouldn't be sustainable. Car companies are anything but 'on board' with EVs as they've spent the past 7 years dragging their heels with many still not offering any EV in their lineup (let alone one that could compete with Tesla's offerings) all the while pushing back against regulation proposals to aid in accelerating EV adoption. Between maintenance, running costs, insurance and often tax credits, ICE cars are also much more expensive in all but one aspect - the sticker price and range anxiety is (mostly) a myth.

 

[Edison5do]

Living in a 3rd world country in Latin America, I can only dream to have more options than a Hybrid Nisan Leaf with 85 miles range LOL

 

[Paul Glover]

Also if you're looking into EVs, I'd recommend giving a Hyundai a look. I never paid much attention to them, but they seem to just get EVs, even beating Tesla in efficiency for some time. Might be worth checking out.

Their new Electric SUV starts at £35,000! WOW

 

[Ruy Horta]

Intermediary step, electric battery technology is not yet efficient and not even environment friendly.
We need fuel cell technology, or hydrogen as a fuel.
Quick turn around and range are factors, as is long term environmental impact.

Just image all those old “spent” electric batteries...new environmental and maintenance problem on the horizon. How long does an electric car last?

 

[protonv5]

This is simply untrue. Between recycling of batteries and renewable energy becoming more and more the norm, there's no reason to think that EVs wouldn't be sustainable. Car companies are anything but 'on board' with EVs as they've spent the past 7 years dragging their heels with many still not offering any EV in their lineup (let alone one that could compete with Tesla's offerings) all the while pushing back against regulation proposals to aid in accelerating EV adoption. Between maintenance, running costs, insurance and often tax credits, ICE cars are also much more expensive in all but one aspect - the sticker price and range anxiety is (mostly) a myth.

Oh my. You're not really doing the math.

 

[protonv5]

Intermediary step, electric battery technology is not yet efficient and not even environment friendly.
We need fuel cell technology, or hydrogen as a fuel.
Quick turn around and range are factors, as is long term environmental impact.

Just image all those old “spent” electric batteries...new environmental and maintenance problem on the horizon. How long does an electric car last?

Exactly.

 

[Keith Joyce]

Or a warp core reactor?

The dilithium crystals won't stand the stress...

 

[Keith Joyce]

I have concerns about pedestrian safety when hit by a 2200kg or 2500kg car. Surely their injuries would be worse than if hit by a 1200kg car at the same speed? Also from my own perspective I can't think a 2500kg car is going to handle well.

I guess my main problems with EVs are the obvious stuff;

- Time to charge
- Poor range
- Price

I just don't think the technology is mature enough yet for a mass roll out. All the aspects I listed above would need massively improving before I even considered an EV. I'd want a car to fully charge in an hour and do 500 miles and cost me £12,000. I think we are well off that.

Considering the battery charging time and range is such an issue, I dont know why the manufacturer's didn't all club together to come up with a common battery which could be replaced at a service stop (like a petrol station). So you do your 230 miles, you pull up at Esso E-Plug at the motorway service station, you wait in the line to get into a parking bay. The man then wheels out a new battery, opens the door on your car's unit, slides battery out, unhooks it, grabs the new fully charged battery, hooks it up, slides it in, closes the door and your back on your journey with another 230 miles range. But no, instead we all have car specific batteries which are embedded into the chassis.

Petrol powered and diesel powered MPV's are seemingly the fashionable thing to own now, however these too are gas guzzling, heavy cars. I thought we are meant to be moving towards "lighter" more fuel efficient cars?

I think the basic juxt of it is, I just like petrol engine cars. I dont want them to go away. What will happen in 30 years time, are there going to be no petrol cars allowed on the roads, I doubt it. What about all the classic Jaguar E-Type's, Aston Martin's, Ferrari's?. It has always been my ambition to own a Honda Type R at some point, before they ruin it all.

Don't hold your breath waiting for a fall in car prices - that's not the way it works. Ask the shareholders why...

 

[Dr. Death]

You see different distances for that number. I've seen after 160.000 km electric cars are the more environment friendly cars. I'm taking everything with a salt of grain here, but it's possible this number is somewhat true (let's just say the magnitude of order). Percentage of renewable energy is going up over time, so production of energy gets greener. So electric cars can still be better for the environment.

I think if people really cared about contamination in the world they should aim to fix the biggest causes, industrial transport and asian/african water pollution.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Electrics are still a more expensive option and that will be the case for a few more years.

When we hit the cost tipping point people will get EV's because they will be cheaper and cost less to maintain. Until then it is pretty much just early adopters as people get comfortable with the technology.

An electric car is much easier and simpler to build and maintain than an ICE car. The only reason they are more expensive is battery cost. Once that price drops the car price will drop. Tesla already dropped the price of their Model S at one point because of dropping battery costs. However they did also get rid of the lowest cost option with the smallest battery. Still they will get cheaper with time.

Also from this point on we will have relatively cheap gas and diesel, so fuel prices won't push electric adoption. The demand for petroleum fuels is still increasing, but just barely and the growth is decelerating quickly such that demand will be dropping in the very near future. Meanwhile we have found an abundance of oil and the Saudi's know that oil will only be valuable for a very short time before the bottom drops out and they will continue to keep oil prices low to make their competition less profitable and keep of the higher cost pumping operations shut down.

Fuel cell tech is simply not going to happen because H2 requires a lot of power to generate. This will keep H2 at least twice as expensive as electricity will be and we would be burning a lot more fossil fuel to generate the H2 and even more to transport it to gas stations. So people will just charge up with the power directly rather than wasting half of that power to break water into H2 and O2. That is the bottom line. It requires a large amount of energy to break the chemical bonds of water. That's physics/chemistry and the amount of power won't change.

When electric cars become dominant, we will be able to reclaim all the wasted space used by gas stations today in prime real estate. Instead there will be solar cell shades in parking lots, but most people will just top off at home at night and never need to charge anywhere else unless they take a trip.

The technology is advancing very quickly and it is just a matter of time.

 

[Jan Larsen]

I havent read the thread, so if this has been mentioned, sorry.

There's a few, but important things to consider when buying electric.
- Electric cars are generally 20% more expensive against the same model in the petrol version. It depends on taxation, watt prices for recharging, the actual home charging stand, depreciation value and general maintenance.
- Range is nowhere near claimed. A Tesla, rated for 585km, only got 403km from a local motoring magazine test. The car was driven normally on a sunny day with about 20 degrees celcius. And Topgear got 70km in their test, but that was at the other end of the extreme scale. The batteries generally last quite long, but range drops lower and lower the older they get, particularly(!) in cold conditions. Also, the fast charging technology, while great for every day use, absolutely kills the battery. We're talking half the lifespan. Replacing a dead or near dead battery costs as much as a new engine, so forget about buying a second hand electric car.

I'm a mechanic and I've noticed a few things after having first hand experience with some of the models.
- A Tesla is great fun! But the build quality is utterly shite. Think Lada's in the 80's. Also the range is nowhere near claimed. Also has no guarantee on rust, which if untreated, it certainly will.
- The range on any small electric car (Zoe, Leaf, Kona etc.) is shockingly bad. The second you set off out of the driveway, consider where the next charging station is.
- While strickly not electric, Toyota CVT hybrids drive like crap. 10 million rpm each time your near the throttle.

When the range doubles, to around 800km and the battery can be charged in 5ish minutes without destroying it, I'll buy one. If I can afford it.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Maybe electric and autonomous are coming in completely different shape

Near the end they mention a company in London that is already buying up rooftop space to be used as landing pad for these autonomous electric vehicles even knowing they are years away from being here.

Inside the race to develop the first flying, self-driving car
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/first-flying-self-driving-car-inside-the-race/

 

[BrunoBæ]

The problem is that creating Hydrogen vs. taking the power that goes into hydrogen creation and just charging a battery with it throws away half of the power generated. Then you need to build a huge infrastructure to store and distribute H2. In the end electric is much easier. It's already distributed and it is much less wasteful of power.

The problem with using hydrogen as fuel in cars is because of the rather inefficient and CO2 emmitting(!) way its produced by reforming gas and hydrocarbons.
But if/when some of the most promising ways of streamlining the still rather inefficient electrolysis process succed - then hydrogen can be produced out of water using 100% green electricity and thereby without emitting CO2.
But if/when this goal is reached then the problem of storage of electricity is also solved.
Without using batteries.
Because then electrolysis produced hydrogen can be used as the storage medium.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: The country where the largest growth in wind power is expected in the comming years is - yeah China. So if somebody is ignorant enough to call countries with about half of their energy consumption covered by wind power "cute" then there will probably be more "cute" countries in the future.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The problem with using hydrogen as fuel in cars is because of the rather inefficient and CO2 emmitting(!) way its produced by reforming gas and hydrocarbons.
But if/when some of the most promising ways of streamlining the still rather inefficient electrolysis process succed - then hydrogen can be produced out of water using 100% green electricity and thereby without emitting CO2.
But if/when this goal is reached then the problem of storage of electricity is also solved.
Without using batteries.
Because then electrolysis produced hydrogen can be used as the storage medium.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: The country where the largest growth in wind power is expected in the comming years is - yeah China. So if somebody is ignorant enough to call countries with about half of their energy consumption covered by wind power "cute" then there will probably be more "cute" countries in the future.

That's not how they are using H2. Fuel Cells generate electricity that is then stored in a local battery also used by regenerative braking. Fuel Cells just create water. There are also large train engine sized high pressure sodium fuel cells that run off of Natural gas that put out pure water and some CO2, but they are otherwise pretty clean as well.

What some people fail to realize is that Fuel Cell cars are electric cars. They just have a 2 stage electric system that stores energy as H2 and requires they go to a gas station to refill vs having a larger battery that is topped off every night in your garage.

 

[Paul Glover]

Electric cars are generally 20% more expensive against the same model in the petrol version. It depends on taxation, watt prices for recharging, the actual home charging stand, depreciation value and general maintenance.

That is changing! With the reduced range consumers would expect it to be cheaper.

 

[Richard Wilks]

The problem with using hydrogen as fuel in cars is because of the rather inefficient and CO2 emmitting(!) way its produced by reforming gas and hydrocarbons.
But if/when some of the most promising ways of streamlining the still rather inefficient electrolysis process succed - then hydrogen can be produced out of water using 100% green electricity and thereby without emitting CO2.
But if/when this goal is reached then the problem of storage of electricity is also solved.
Without using batteries.
Because then electrolysis produced hydrogen can be used as the storage medium.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: The country where the largest growth in wind power is expected in the comming years is - yeah China. So if somebody is ignorant enough to call countries with about half of their energy consumption covered by wind power "cute" then there will probably be more "cute" countries in the future.

Expected "growth" only, is different than achieved goal, and growing from near zero is easy I repeat what i said, i want to see cute windmills powering most factories, and cities of tenths of millions of people before your example is even realistic for the rest of the world Windmills are nothing new, they have been around since the 90s, and china has quite a few of them actually. Yet, the numbers are nowhere near enough for high demand industrial or urban needs That talk is similar to the promise that river dams would solve all our problems, and they have been around for 100 years already, and yet, we are still burning that evil coal, or turning into nuclear power.

If you add millions of electric cars to the grid, then i can see that being even more of a problem, even considering strategies like charging all the cars overnight, to avoid the storage problem of most "clean" electric generated energy.

 

[Sim Strata]

Good luck finding the extra 59 gigawatts of peak 'leccy capacity needed in the evening. Never mind the extra 105 terawatts additional yearly demand (which doubles the current UK domestic yearly consumption)! That's just private vehicles. Did I mention that commercial UK road transport petroleum consumption is 17 times greater than domestic? Just an extra 5 terawatts to feed into the system each day. Hey ho!

The whole EV movement is litterally be on a road to nowhere and is environmental insanity. But at least flying will be dirt cheap.

I suspect that H2 stands a better chance of being even remotely sustainable. It may not be as efficient...yet. But the distrution realestate is already inplace (gas stations). The means of production can be easily distributed, being installed at existing gas stations and can easily be connected to local renewable resources reducing national energy demands.