Do you feel that AC will be the last sim of your life?

[Elaphe]

I do. Maybe if you are younger than me (and more optimistic) you have expectations in a brighter future. I have the feeling that there is no logic in expecting new sims in the future (such Assetto Corsa 2, for instance). The reason is the hardware. Newer games with photorealistic graphics with ray tracing, 4k, running in triple screens or high resolution VR headsets with lots of FOV, with real physics ala BeamNG Drive? That's impossible now and it will not be possible in many decades. The evolution of CPUs and GPUs is slow and almost stuck, with absurd prices and unable to supply enough computing power even for the games with have now under certain circumstances. Ten years ago I dreamt with better games; nowadays I dream with better hardware to improve the experience I have with AC.

 

[Nicecuppatea]

As an increasingly old fart, I vaguely remember an arcade racing game that was just a plastic car on a metal rod and the track was either a screen or a projection behind it, the tyre model was terrible.

Coming from that to where we are now, almost fifty years later, makes me optimistic about future developments, even if progress does slow dramatically. There's usually a way to do things better and/or faster.

 

[gecco]

By the way, I still haven't given up hope that Scawen will deliver the new tyre physics one day!

Together with the Scircocco!

 

[Fat-Alfie]

I hope it won't be my last sim, but I do know that buying into Assetto Corsa in Early Access, and then experiencing the constant development of the sim, with all of the physics updates, improvements (or otherwise) in the AI, the tyre model, new tracks, new cars... it was just magical!

AC was my first real racing sim, and the only sim I have wanted to make tracks for, and as such it will always hold a special place in my heart.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I will not be buying anything from URD ever again. Some cars were crashing requiring data changes, some had non transparent windshields, also requiring some model tweaking. Modder knows about the problem but refusing to fix it.
Putting it in the same sentence as RSS is an insult to the latter.

 

[Mogget]

After ACC, AC feels quite old school with simplified physics and dated graphics....

I do not get that feeling at all. In fact, the rather "on rails" feel of GT cars makes the physics engine in ACC feel nowhere near as good as the amazing feel of the road cars in AC. I would also argue that there is not a massive difference in the graphics. Yes, ACC has more effects and technical wizardry (and a bit more trackside detail), but I do not see a huge difference with respect to the graphical quality of the tracks themselves.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Road, vintage cars, yes, they are more "alive" in general, but ACC just doesn't have any.
But if you compare GT to GT, AC is just lacking the richness and complexity of ACC FFB/physics, feels almost simcadey simplistic at times. For non GT content, AC is still a king though.

 

[pumpkineater23]

Road, vintage cars, yes, they are more "alive" in general, but ACC just doesn't have any.
But if you compare GT to GT, AC is just lacking the richness and complexity of ACC FFB/physics, feels almost simcadey simplistic at times. For non GT content, AC is still a king though.

Can you explain what you mean exactly.. in detail. I have never bought ACC because of the bad reports of the VR. The physics and FFB in AC GT cars seem really great to me but perhaps I just don't know what I'm looking for. Also, just out of interest, what do you think of the physics and FFB of AMS2? Is this an improvement over AC do you think, or not? Cheers!

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Can you explain what you mean exactly.. in detail.

That would require starting from Big Bang.
Seriously, sims vary in the level of simulation accuracy they support, ACC is based on advanced and improved version of AC physics with new 5 points tire model. In addition to that due to limited content and access to manufacturers data Kunos were able to produce more accurate recreation of simulated cars.
These physics improvements translate to FFB signal as well, steering rack forces in particular. You can find more "exciting" FFB with tons of road effects, when cars even in GT category can be jumping and dancing on the track in some other titles, sure it's fun, but not really reflective of real car behavior and counterproductive to proper car control.
ACC FFB while more muted provides much more fine and nuanced "useful" information on what car is doing including effects from factors like temperature, track conditions, etc.
It just takes a good wheel and back to back run of the same or similar car in both titles to see the difference. Some appreciate it, some don't.

 

[pumpkineater23]

That would require starting from Big Bang.
Seriously, sims vary in the level of simulation accuracy they support, ACC is based on advanced and improved version of AC physics with new 5 points tire model. In addition to that due to limited content and access to manufacturers data Kunos were able to produce more accurate recreation of simulated cars.
These physics improvements translate to FFB signal as well, steering rack forces in particular. You can find more "exciting" FFB with tons of road effects, when cars even in GT category can be jumping and dancing on the track in some other titles, sure it's fun, but not really reflective of real car behavior and counterproductive for proper car control.
ACC FFB while more muted provides much more fine and nuanced "useful" information on what car is doing including effects from factors like temperature, track conditions, etc.
It just takes a good wheel and back to back run of the same or similar car in both titles to see the difference. Some appreciate it, some don't.

I see. Is there a reason why these things can't be 'adjusted' in AC in some way? Like a mod to update AC physics and FFB? Didn't IER do this to some degree with the ARX-03c ?

 

[RasmusP]

I see. Is there a reason why these things can't be 'adjusted' in AC in some way? Like a mod to update AC physics and FFB? Didn't IER do this to some degree with the ARX-03c ?

You could do it. Question is who would pay for the work time

 

[Gevatter]

I see. Is there a reason why these things can't be 'adjusted' in AC in some way? Like a mod to update AC physics and FFB? Didn't IER do this to some degree with the ARX-03c ?

The 5 point tyre model could be implemented, Stefano said as much. But then all mods would break and people would be salty that they cant use their mods anymore. BUT! - CSP already added a lot of physics features, so who knows what Ilja can still pull out of his hat for AC.

 

[pumpkineater23]

You could do it. Question is who would pay for the work time

You could do it. Question is who would pay for the work time

I happily pay for quality mods. As I understand it, (and correct me if I'm wrong), Ilja has a pretty good monthly income for the amazing stuff he does.

 

[pumpkineater23]

The 5 point tyre model could be implemented, Stefano said as much. But then all mods would break and people would be salty that they cant use their mods anymore. BUT! - CSP already added a lot of physics features, so who knows what Ilja can still pull out of his hat for AC.

Could the mods be updated along with the tyre model? If so then most of the good ones probably would I think? And while we're at it, let's have a small cost to buy these new updated cars (except for the ones we already paid for of course). It would be a great step forward for us and an incentive to the modders.

 

[Kyuubeey]

I don't think anything would break with how they do the ACC 5-point model. It's plug and play. At least, it should be. Should they come back and implement it to old AC content? No, the AC cars are inaccurate to begin with and we will have a better implementation via Cphys eventually. We also already have a relatively correct FFB system via Cphys that doesn't need any tweaking via sliders or anything.

Let them focus on making ACC better. It was entertaining enough when I've tried it so I would actually like it see become an actually accurate sim that runs well and has easily accessible online racing; not see it fail. But I'm still gonna be honest about it.

@pumpkineater23

We already have a more accurate tire model in AC, it's usable via CSP for modding. Any modder can use it and if you have some specific slip or SAT curves you want, it can be arranged. It has correct~ slip, SAT and heat behavior, which I doubt are correct in the other competitor sims. I mean, heat is clearly not working realistically in ACC and that's kind of a big one. I've gotten slicks, track tires and passenger tires all working relatively accurately in track driving, drifting, highway driving and cooling down in the pits so it's good enough for my uses. Although due to the nature of these features they're not plug and play at all apart from better SAT which is automatically enabled for extended physics cars IIRC. Vanilla AC, ACC and from what I've seen every other consumer sim has large issues with obeying the laws of thermodynamics to begin with; forget accurate behavior. If there does exist another consumer sim with accurate heat, do tell me about it because I'd be extremely curious to see it though.

I'm not ragging on ACC, it's a step forward for consumer sim content IMO but this idea that ACC's cars are any better than the BK R8 for any intrinsic reason (Average ACC car likely has much less data than BK R8 and I do not think Aris is as competent at implementing it as actual sim engineers), or that the CSP tire model is the inferior one while the ACC one is the serious professional one that we should be looking forward to is misguided.

ACC did do other things that CSP hasn't yet but I wouldn't get too hyped about them unless you actually understand the implementations. If you do and still feel hyped, go ahead.

By the way, Ilja hasn't done any of the Cphys stuff. It's by mclarenf1apapa or "JPG_18"; you know, an actual sim and race engineer and not a game developer.

 

[Kabanito]

We've seen how the price of top-tier graphics cards has escalated with every new series, and that's even without the current gouging. That's likely to continue as extreme UV, etc., becomes required for new fabrication nodes. Chiplets and 3D circuitry may help, but these all add expense too.

I don't know what to do if my RX 580 breaks down. There is no money for a new one. But I read that AC goes even on Vega 8 or 11.

Has anyone tried cloud gaming for car simulators? Maybe this is the way out?

 

[mclarenf1papa]

Biggest differences to ACC and AC are that tire temps are less broken and cars use more realistic data... "5 point" model, new aero (which does 90% the same thing as the old one), chassis flex, all of that buzzword stuff is a very small amount of what's felt through the wheel. The distinction between the two titles is mostly the same as the distinction that causes you to download mods from certain people/groups and not others (i.e. the general quality of work).

The 5 point tyre model could be implemented, Stefano said as much. But then all mods would break and people would be salty that they cant use their mods anymore. BUT! - CSP already added a lot of physics features, so who knows what Ilja can still pull out of his hat for AC.

The only thing that would break would be the CSP if KS updated the game, and that'd be easily fixable. You can do a fairly reasonable multipoint model without any additional parameters. If it happens for the patch, it's mine to code, not Ilja's (as with the rest of the patch's physics features...trust me, you don’t want Ilja coding physics haha). The way ACC does its "5 point model" is kind of lame and not physically all that accurate, so I'd rather a bit better of an approach, which I'm working on.

 

[Kyuubeey]

Biggest differences to ACC and AC are that tire temps are less broken and cars use more realistic data... "5 point" model, new aero (which does 90% the same thing as the old one), chassis flex, all of that buzzword stuff is a very small amount of what's felt through the wheel. The distinction between the two titles is mostly the same as the distinction that causes you to download mods from certain people/groups and not others (i.e. the general quality of work).


The only thing that would break would be the CSP if KS updated the game, and that'd be easily fixable. You can do a fairly reasonable multipoint model without any additional parameters. If it happens for the patch, it's mine to code, not Ilja's (as with the rest of the patch's physics features). The way ACC does its "5 point model" is kind of lame and not physically all that accurate, so I'd rather a bit better of an approach, which I'm working on.

Are the tire temps actually better? I didn't do a super in-depth test so maybe in telemetry you can see a better trend, but when I tried it, it looked basically like AC1 to me. Same old slow to heat, slow to cool style. Has it changed just recently or what?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

@mclarenf1papa, outside new gyro, that cphys is that something that works on existing, including vanilla, AC content or just tool for modders?

 

[mclarenf1papa]

@mclarenf1papa, outside new gyro, that cphys is that something that works on existing, including vanilla, AC content or just tool for modders?

A tool for people who fairly seriously know what they're doing (very much not the majority of modders). Almost all of the features need new data/parameters which take the simulation to a more professional level instead of a sim market level (like AC, ACC, RF2, etc). I talk about file count a lot with regards to this, but something like the P13 uses 200 data files vs the typical KS number of 45 for the same type of car. It's more pro sim territory than video game territory.

Something like a multipoint tire model might end up enabled by default, or at least enabled by default for cphys cars.

 

[Ghoults]

There are so many places in ac where kunos managed to pick just the right way to implement a feature that really ticks all the boxes. Convenient to use, easy to understand, quick to do, flexible, future proof while still being very efficient to run fast. Like the way track surfaces is done, how car lods work or how the car engine sounds work. It is many generations ahead of anything else out there and I 100% believe it is not hyperbole to say it.

With track surfaces splitting the visual and physics surfaces was a great move. Not only does it give you the best of both performance and looks but it allows to drive on really detailed surfaces. Of course the downside there is that the dynamic track system is extremely basic but for a game that doesn't have rain I think it is a valid choice. The system is also flexible as it allows use of one single mesh that is both drivable and visual too to save time. There is no need to use it in one very specific way.

Only annoyance is the relatively low tris limit for the objects but iirc the unofficially updated sdk has a higher limit. Which means.... even the modding tools can be modded. Not to mention the modding tools are great as well! Or that they exist! There are moddable titles out there that have no documentation and no tools at all.

Car lod system also has some nice small details in it that really make it a pleasure to use. As all the objects are packaged into kn5 packages the lod distances are set just for each kn5 package. Not for each object. That is a massive time saver and improvement over the object focused workflow. And it is flexible system as well so if someone wants to manually have each object be its own kn5 and manually set lod distances for each object in a text file then he can do that. Tracks have their own object based lodding. It is so quick. And the packages are created by the sdk. One export directly into the game.

The car sounds are also amazing. By allowing sound banks to be transferred with just quick edit of guid file one of the big hurdles of modding has been overcome. Placeholder sounds don't need to suck and lack of sounds can not stop release of mod. With kunos allowing their sound packs to be used in mods is also very thoughtful of them. The system is robust, quick and almost effortless to set up for new car. It also supports sound modding and sound packs which don't break anything even online. Moddable sounds in moddable game! There are moddable games out there that don't even provide a sample file for how to set up sounds for your car...

I can't comment on sound modding because I have not done it but it looks the documentation is good. Overall the sound system is insanely well thought out system. One has to really dig down deep to find something bad about it. With cm automating the sound change between cars into effectively couple of clicks it becomes really super super difficult complain anything about it.

None of this is possible in any other game or in ue4 or unity or whatever without rewriting their engines at low level. This is all unique and from modding point of view just pure excellence. And there are many features like that. Not just in ac but in shaders patch and content manager. This is why ac is so hard to beat. It has flaws too but it does a lot of things so much better than its competitors.