Bobs Track (or City) Builder vs Cityscape.

[dacoolone91]

Hi Guys..

I read something (somewhere) about a Bobs City Builder in production.
..Not sure tho if this is a fantasy project or an upcoming BTB project.?

In any case to show you the "flag-ship" on the City Builders market
here is an -exiting- promo video from the (ease of use) Cityscape tool.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9bND1uRXs&NR=1[/ame]

Ley me know your opinion if we need an easy to use City Builder tool,
that among other things works a bit different in regards to terrain handlin etc..
( Just check the construction method Cityscape uses vs current BTB ).

Cheers,
Dac.

 

[jay_p_666]

I found this interesting vid about a free XNA terrain editor. There is a lot of similarities with BTB in the way elevation and blending tools works.

What is good to know is that the source code is included with it which open up to lot of possibilities.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgwmZ03vZbI[/ame]
Download : http://www.gameprojects.com/project/?id=8fc946fc5f
XNA : http://creators.xna.com

 

[Alex Forbin]

Hmm, I don't see any real difference as far as the terrain generation goes
other than the fact that this one has a LOT of needed menu selections.

Alex Forbin

 

[dosgraphix]

In my humble opinion, people involved in BTB community, and I mean us, are a quite slow in advancing of colaborative XPacks.

There are thousands of stunning free 3d Models in Google Earth / Sketchup communities which would fit perfectly in Racing Games.

If each one of us convert 10 or 15 models, we could gather more than 300 different buildings in a huge City Xpack which could be used as the software shown at the beggining of this thread into BTB.

All we need it's a license professional Sketchup version to save as 3DS (my company have one - there's another ways to convert to 3DS, but not really handy) and a license of 3DSimed, besides a BTB license of course.

Look at Jay_p_666 has done on his Britain XPack even working alone and imagine how much we could achieve working through several hands.

Now that i have almost completed my first track, I have started working on a Building/City Xpack... It will be ready in July!
It will include a Tunnel String Object as well as other things.
I am using many things from the 3D Warehouse to make it up.

I will post some pics in the coming weeks.

 

[Eric Tozer]

I just want to point out that if you guys are going to re-distribute "free" models please be careful to read the licence agreements.

Quite often models are free to use for your own projects but not for re-distribution.

Please respect the wishes of those who have created the models.

I don't want anyone to land in any legal hot water..

 

[dosgraphix]

T&C from Google Sketch-up:

By submitting, posting or displaying Content through the 3D Warehouse, you grant Google and its end users a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual license to exercise the rights in the Content, as stated below:

to reproduce the Content;
to create and reproduce derivative works of the Content;
to display publicly and distribute copies of the Content;
to display publicly and distribute copies of derivative works of the content.

So it should be ok unless otherwise stated.

Maybe it should be called 'free-d warehouse'

 

[dacoolone91]

In my humble opinion, people involved in BTB community, and I mean us, are a quite slow in advancing of colaborative XPacks.

There are thousands of stunning free 3d Models in Google Earth / Sketchup communities which would fit perfectly in Racing Games.

If each one of us convert 10 or 15 models, we could gather more than 300 different buildings in a huge City Xpack which could be used as the software shown at the beggining of this thread into BTB.

All we need it's a license professional Sketchup version to save as 3DS (my company have one - there's another ways to convert to 3DS, but not really handy) and a license of 3DSimed, besides a BTB license of course.

Look at Jay_p_666 has done on his Britain XPack even working alone and imagine how much we could achieve working through several hands.

I totally agree with you that trying to organize a clever system of
compiling more xpacks - where the community co-work sounds like
the right thing to do.

Your idea of converting all the best google sketchup stuff surely sounds
like a perfect plan in my ears.

Perhaps make structured Xpacks with most needed content like:
Buildings/houses, Exiting nature stuff not already covered, etc.
..Plus some packs with various styles of content as well..

1.Guys collecting all the usable material ( 3d models and textures ).
2.Guys converting the material to .3DS via the Pro Skectcup version.
3.Guys working with texturing / re-texturing of the material.
( A building can as example be re-textured into several kewl variations ).
4.Guys that organize the converted material into Xpacks.

All is needed is a couple of easy going step by step guides allowing
"non gfx experts" to helpout as well.

And besides this form a BTB gfx community team ppl easily can join
with purpose of helping out in the area where their skills are the best.

Cheers,
Dac.

 

[dacoolone91]

I just want to point out that if you guys are going to re-distribute "free" models please be careful to read the licence agreements.

Quite often models are free to use for your own projects but not for re-distribution.

Please respect the wishes of those who have created the models.

I don't want anyone to land in any legal hot water..

Very good advice for sure.

However as Dosgraphix mentions most free stuff can freely be distributed
within free of charge projects like structured production of BTB Xpacks.
( The same system goes for pro purchased gfx as well )..

Sadly not many have the gfx skills to scratch produce their own
material, that's why collecting and organzing free quality stuff into
Xpacks is a "must do job", if we want the BTB community to grow.

Leaving all the work into the few gfx skilled hands like yourself,
will only result in "work-raping" the skilled gfx guys and as a result
leave the scene with less materail / less xpacks.

I know the optimal scenario (perhaps) would be scratch production
of base 3D models sets like Houses and buildings etc, that could be
re-textured into "countless" variations..

Perhaps a few skilled gfx guys would join the BTB gfx community team
with purpose of helping out via creation of easy going step by step guides
and/or creation of the above mentioned base 3D models sets etc.?

Cheers,
Dac.

 

[dacoolone91]

I found this interesting vid about a free XNA terrain editor. There is a lot of similarities with BTB in the way elevation and blending tools works.

What is good to know is that the source code is included with it which open up to lot of possibilities.

Download : http://www.gameprojects.com/project/?id=8fc946fc5f
XNA : http://creators.xna.com

This vid looks very very kewl for sure..
..Plus free source code, perhaps Piddy can use the code.?

The system of 1.generating & re-working the terrain and 2. placement
of track structure and 3d objects, are features that I really miss in BTB.

..Because a system like this is many times easier and less time
consuming to work with for everybody incl. the guys that currently
find BTB to hard (too tech) to work with.

I do believe features like these could help the BTB community to grow,
because it will inspire all the non tech guys to purchase BTB as well.

Cheers,
Dac.

 

[jharro]

if you're looking for a heightmap editor you may very well just get Bryce 5 which is free for quite some time now and is easily state of art and it can create and export much more than just terrains:
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=download+bryce+free&btnG=Search[/ame]

that XNA editor is just gadget, if anything, is just a proof of concept and it's quite useless in context of track making considering that you can create track oriented terrain in BTB but if you think otherwise you proably need to rewatch some BTB video tutorials because iirc you can already "paint" the height and blend materials.

 

[dacoolone91]

What I meant was a more easy (straightforward) way of constructing
a track, making BTB track building more accessible for non tech guys
and thereby expanding the BTB community with many more members.

The easy / or more straightforward method, well suited for non tech guys:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1..Choose terrain size & generate the terrain..
2..Construct the track layout - will be auto placed on top of the terrain.
(Or Import a track layout from a google earth .kml file or likewize).
3..If you wish, then manually (real time 3d) re-elevate the terrain..
(The track layout should of course auto follow the elevated terrain).
4..Place your object.

..We use a similar system over at the Second Life scene with success
in regards of the non tech guys building thier own Islands.

I have no clue how long it would take for Piddy to produce an
easy to use construction mode like the one described above.?
(perhaps it would take month of hard work, perhaps only a few weeks).?

Needless to mentions is that this is only a good idea if Piddy wish to
expand the community with (many) new non tech type members.?

Cheers,
Dac.

 

[jharro]

but the thing is tracks for racing sims are quite wild animals , they are not supposed to be easy to deal with, and unless i'm missing something, the purpose of a good track builder is to allow you to easily and intuitively create the track not to build the track in your place.

the problem with the workflow you've suggested is a terrain from heightmap or DEM data it just does not have the accuracy of the track itself and if you project the spline on such terrain the road would be simply too rough to be of any use.

starting the track that way you will still end up tweaking the nodes and creating aditional BTB terrain to fill the gaps just like is done now anyway.

another problem with "Choose terrain size & generate the terrain.." is most of the "terrain" generated from a rectangular heightmap is simply not visible in a normal track due to vegetation, walls and whatever objects you'll choose to place near the road so in the end it will waste your time and the FPS.

until we'll have access to some very acurate DEM data the track should still be started from inside out, so to speak, letting the far scenery as an option at the end of the process, but hey, if you still belive heightmap is the answer for all your problems check out the Xpand Rally's ChromeEd but i have to warn you, there were some quite talented people trying to get that working yet the game and the comunities are all dead and burried along time ago.

 

[liquido]

In my humble opinion, people involved in BTB community, and I mean us, are a quite slow in advancing of colaborative XPacks.

There are thousands of stunning free 3d Models in Google Earth / Sketchup communities which would fit perfectly in Racing Games.

If each one of us convert 10 or 15 models, we could gather more than 300 different buildings in a huge City Xpack which could be used as the software shown at the beggining of this thread into BTB.

All we need it's a license professional Sketchup version to save as 3DS (my company have one - there's another ways to convert to 3DS, but not really handy) and a license of 3DSimed, besides a BTB license of course.

Look at Jay_p_666 has done on his Britain XPack even working alone and imagine how much we could achieve working through several hands.

i want to relase an american xpack from RBR, but i don´t know how to manage 3D max... rigth now i´m cuting every single texture from the originals american texture plates of RBR.

i want to make (or get into) a workteam, i want to do things for that comunity but i need help, please tell me what i can do to help you or someone else.

my problem is that i´m really noob in this sim world.... BTB is really easy to manage, and i think most people have the same problem, they know how to manage BTB but no more 3d software.


plesae make a workteam and tell me what i have to do.... i do my best.

 

[42Cliff]

um, there Are accurate DEM files availible, and more becoming available every month

here is what a US gov provided 1m dem looks like shaded:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_perhw-dLe...PTs/s1600-h/NapaRt29-RGB-Shaded-1m-detail.jpg

and here is a custom 20cm DEM I made rendered as a grid, notice that even the waterbar shows up:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_perhw-dLe...1600-h/the+Cloudland+20cm+grid+visualised.jpg

 

[Alex Forbin]

One caveat in regards to using GE warehouse objects be VERY sure that
the object is constructed efficiently. I have seen some really horrible poly
counts in GE warehouse objects before. The textures should also be of a
reasonable resolution and quality. I would be a shame to see a great looking
xpack come out, only to find that it made your track unplayable.

Alex Forbin

 

[Alex Forbin]

The only terrain feature I'm really hoping for right now is the ability to import
a GE terrain file.

Alex Forbin

 

[42Cliff]

yuck. you want google earth terrain? someone already made a script for that, it uses the same horridly low res .hgt files (srtm data) that google earth uses for the majority of its data.

although I have seen a few places where google earth uses better data .. mt st helens is the only good GE elevation data I've seen lately.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...12,-122.065187&spn=0.021923,0.078964&t=p&z=15

edit: good, LIDAR derived DEM on the left, SRTM on the right in that link.

 

[Lamda]

what is the problem of the whole. You want to build a track which looks realistic but at the same time easy to handle and driveable with good fps. At the moment this is not possible to make it so as the shown pictures, because the performance of the PC is not sufficient. For game design is always the rule as much as you need as less as possible. The most important of a track is the road. As far from road as less accurate it must be. For the meshes, this means as farther away from road, as less polygonest needed. Everything you do not see is superfluous. Same as scene at a stage/arena.So it is logical to start with the roadmesh not with terrain. In the future it will allways takes many manual work to build good (realistic) tracks. It is allways shown, if a track will be made in a hour or two.

Spend some time to skill you up, than you can make all better and faster with your posibilitys (whichever used Programs)

Lamda

 

[lordpantsington]

...So it is logical to start with the roadmesh not with terrain...

I'd buy that IF roads weren't built on/from terrain. Right now things seem very backwards to me. I'd much rather see a terrain and drape the road approach, rather than the road/fill in terrain we have.

I agree a full res 20cm DEM is poly overload. But who says that is what the final mesh will be? Just to have the ability to load a DEM to get started will save hours of work.

A nice tool would import the points needed relative to the track centerline, and step down polygonal resolution the further the distance from the track, up to a max distance. I doubt PRO will ever see it, but I can hope.

 

[42Cliff]

correct, a DEM is a Source of elevation data, not a track.

a track has to still be made to drape over the DEM.

edit: and of course if anyone can tell me how to drape a BTB track over a DEM - in any format - please pass it on. (can convert the DEM to other formats - max or whatever if required - my comp would take ages to process such a file though)

 

[dacoolone91]

but the thing is tracks for racing sims are quite wild animals , they are not supposed to be easy to deal with, and unless i'm missing something, the purpose of a good track builder is to allow you to easily and intuitively create the track not to build the track in your place.

the problem with the workflow you've suggested is a terrain from heightmap or DEM data it just does not have the accuracy of the track itself and if you project the spline on such terrain the road would be simply too rough to be of any use.

starting the track that way you will still end up tweaking the nodes and creating aditional BTB terrain to fill the gaps just like is done now anyway.

another problem with "Choose terrain size & generate the terrain.." is most of the "terrain" generated from a rectangular heightmap is simply not visible in a normal track due to vegetation, walls and whatever objects you'll choose to place near the road so in the end it will waste your time and the FPS.

until we'll have access to some very acurate DEM data the track should still be started from inside out, so to speak, letting the far scenery as an option at the end of the process, but hey, if you still belive heightmap is the answer for all your problems check out the Xpand Rally's ChromeEd but i have to warn you, there were some quite talented people trying to get that working yet the game and the comunities are all dead and burried along time ago.

Advanced trackbuilding is surely not supposed to be easy to deal with,
I fully agree with you here.

However if you want all the less tech skilled guys to be an active part
of the community as well you do want to make trackbuilding a lil less complicated.

Here is a workaround of the method i described, that could be used for
attracting BTB for the less tech skilled guys and should be fairly easy to
implement for Piddy.

1..Some sort BTB internal: Step by step guide meant for beginners.
( Should be fairly easy to implement i think ) ..
2..Design your track layout, preferred in 3D realtime for easy going.
3..Easy understandable for beginners: Sorrounding terrain generation.
( An -auto terrain fill- feature with a few easy to understand options ).
4..Elevate your terrain if you like, preferred in 3D realtime for easy going.
5..Place your objects..
(Easy objects placement like the "fill terrain with trees" feature is good)
...Race your track..

Beginners would even wish to have an auto-generate track layout
feature including a few easy-going choices like length and track type etc..
( As soon as they get hooked they would wish to learn more, i think ).

This is of course only meant for beginners since the current BTB features
are easy enough to use for more experienced trackbuilders.

I think it would be in everybodys best interest to get the less tech skilled
guys to become active members of the BTB community as well, since most
of the more tech skilled guys (most likely) already has "joined up".

...Personally I'm much more interested in the organizing more Xpacks
discussion we got going in this topic as well, since that is something
that could benefit most/all of us.

Cheers,
Dac.