Blue flag rule - how to solve it at Hungaroring

[Reik Major]

I think that passing of Reik & Jonas is a sign of what to expect, leaders are expected to stay up to half a lap, i know i will let them pass even if it costs me time after that.

I have no problem with it at all. On such a twisty track it can take a while until there's a clear opportunity to lap.

I just see one problem which causes missunderstandings and therefore most likely incidents when lapping. The problem in the test event was, that not everyone followed the same lapping guidelines.

I remember we agreed the new guideline which says, the lapping car has to make a well timed common pass and the lapped car should allow it to do so. This means the lapping car has to follow close and finally leave the racing line to make a pass on the inside of a corner.

My close situation with Jonas was, that in the twisty part I followed close and after each turn, I didn't move over to the racing line but stayed on the inside line just to be ready to pass on the inside if Jonas would brake a little bit earlier for the following corner. But Jonas wanted to be so kind to let me lap easy on the racing line, so he also stayed next to the racing line. So I was very close to hit him from behind because we had different expectations of what the other will do.

Of course I'm more than happy if a lapped car moves kindly over on a longer straight. But if things happen quickly it's not good if two drivers have a different idea.

 

[Valter Ostman]

I'm usually being lapped by you Reik. In this practice event I think I used the old way of letting you and the faster drivers by. I have to pull myself together and try the new agreed method in the league race. For me it still feels a little awkward to "be in the way" for half a lap or more.
Maybe we should have some agreed "DRS zones" for each track. And let faster cars by at those places by braking a bit earlier than normal. On the rest of the track you would have to race the slower cars to overtake.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

It makes sense that this rule needs to be customized for certain tracks like Hungaroring. In general all drivers should be aware of where the obvious over-taking spot(s) are on the track, At Hungaroring it is as far as I know only into t1.

I'll post a video of what this looked like between Jonas and myself.

Btw, a purpose of this rule is to make the race flow better for the slower drivers. However, a driver who drive off track and makes mistakes all the time, and as a consequence will be lapped rather early in the race should give way a la conventional blue flag rule, and possibly consider going to garage as the rest of the race will be about being lapped all the time.

 

[Bob Miley]

I feel the same way as Valter, I don't like to hold people up and as a first timer, for me, it's all about finishing the race regardless of where I finish. I have no problem lifting off to let people through, just need to know if I should stay on the racing line and lift or move over and lift and make sure the faster driver knows which it is so they don't plough into the back of me.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I feel the same way as Valter, I don't like to hold people up and as a first timer, for me, it's all about finishing the race regardless of where I finish. I have no problem lifting off to let people through, just need to know if I should stay on the racing line and lift or move over and lift and make sure the faster driver knows which it is so they don't plough into the back of me.

Don't move off the racing line, and don't slow down unexpectedly when someone is close behind.
If you want to allow a faster driver past, go too deep (brake late) into a corner when he is relatively close behind, and don't re-enter racing line until you can see him passing you. I think this is the safest way and should not cost you too much time either.

The important thing is that you do not start to stress too early. Allow him to get within 0,3-0,4, because then he'll start thinking of getting past as well.

EDIT: If the faster car is close behind, and then you see him go off the racing line to make an attempt, it should be safe to lift slightly to allow him easily past.

 

[Bob Miley]

Fair enough Nico, but just so everyone knows, if you come to lap me on the start/finish straight, I will lift halfway down but stay on racing line, so if you pull to the inside you will pass easily.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Fair enough Nico, but just so everyone knows, if you come to lap me on the start/finish straight, I will lift halfway down but stay on racing line, so if you pull to the inside you will pass easily.

Be aware that if the fast car is close and planning on passing you anyway, he will stay in your slip stream until right behind you before diving to the right. If you look at my video above you know what I mean. in that situation, do not lift until I move to the right please

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Fair enough Nico, but just so everyone knows, if you come to lap me on the start/finish straight, I will lift halfway down but stay on racing line, so if you pull to the inside you will pass easily.

You have to wait until the lapper is attempting a pass, ie he moves out of racingline first. I think this is the essence of this rule, let the experienced driver make the first move instead of us less experienced ones. I won't be going off the racing-line except main straight ( iw ill go to far right in that case, me hugging the wall should be a good indication that i don't want you in my tail so go..), there is just simply no place elsewhere that has enough time for communication to take place: communication like lapper going for a pass out of racingline even if he doesn't have enough speed to actually overtake. The one about to be lapped will only then slow the speed, not a moment sooner. I think when you can put full lock brakes on without causing accidents, it shold be safe to start slowing down gradually (or letting 5th gear ride on the limiter for a while.)

It will cost time especially in Hungary for the leaders but should guarantee the safest passing during the whole race.. I'll have 1-2 laps margins in my pitstrategy just for lappings, if it suits the situation, i can come one lap early and avoid any time loss for either party... PS: My pitstrategy is a bit risky but the way i've calculate it, should be able to let a lot of people pass during pitstops... edit: woops, almost revealed my strategy....

EDIT: isn't tomorrow a club pre-race evening? We could join it and practice a bit on the lapping, then possibly do the short races..

 

[Valter Ostman]

Don't move off the racing line, and don't slow down unexpectedly when someone is close behind.
If you want to allow a faster driver past, go too deep (brake late) into a corner when he is relatively close behind, and don't re-enter racing line until you can see him passing you. I think this is the safest way and should not cost you too much time either.

The important thing is that you do not start to stress too early. Allow him to get within 0,3-0,4, because then he'll start thinking of getting past as well.

EDIT: If the faster car is close behind, and then you see him go off the racing line to make an attempt, it should be safe to lift slightly to allow him easily past.

OK Nicolai, the porno method (go deep), seems to me the most logical way to let a fast guy overtake with minimal time-loss for the slower car. I will try to brake late into T1 and drive outer line (first lap style) through first half of the turn. In the T1 exit - the outer line is the racing line. Overtaking car may have to leave room.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

So people don't get me wrong. This is not about doing it my way, it is about doing it the same way. The biggest concern for the fastest drivers is the unpredictabillity, what will the slower car do? What they fear the most is an unexpected reduction in pace or an unexpected move off the racing line.

So when I ask drivers to do it the way described it is not because I say that my method is better than yours, but that the faster drivers need predictabillity.

I can understand that some "slower" drivers are uncomfortable blocking a faster car, in such a situation I think it is better to do it the porn-way (go deep), alternatively move the car onto the grass and re-enter when safe. But I do not think it is a good idea that everybody have their own way to solve this.

 

[Valter Ostman]

It's good that you give us instructions Nicolai. I think it's important that the fast guys know what to expect from cars a lap down. We can't do this safe if people not know what's expected. If we, as said before, should wait for the lapping car/cars to make the move to the inner lane, all involved must know exactly what to do. There is no room for hesitation.

 

[Reik Major]

...alternatively move the car onto the grass and re-enter when safe...

I agree with anything you mention so far but this sounds like a bit too much for me.

Finally it's all about predictability. So in general we agree to follow Nicos suggestion, so normaly the lapped car will stay on the racing line and finally make the move for the quick car on the inside a bit easier by going a bit wider and/or brake a little bit earlier if the lapping car shows up on the inside.

In addition the lapped car is allowed to do it the old way (move over) if it's super predictable, for example on a longer straight. Right?

The lapped driver mustn't worry about "blocking" the quicker driver through a twisty section! It's the best for everyone, if the slow driver concentrates to drive as quick as possible through this section and to allow lapping afterwards instead of making an unpredictable move into this section.

Finally over the whole season the quicker drivers will in average loose more or less the same time in such situations and some times one will be luckier than the other one but it will equalize in the end. I don't like a scenario where the slower drivers are afraid of the quicker ones and stress themselves too much.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

alternatively move the car onto the grass and re-enter when safe.

I agree with anything you mention so far but this sounds like a bit too much for me.

In addition the lapped car is allowed to do it the old way (move over) if it's super predictable, for example on a longer straight. Right?

The grass was ment as a substitute to those who "insist" on moving out of the way, but I agree it does not sound like a super idea. It is just that I didn't want the "I'll move over and let people past" thing catch too much on. So the third quote in this post, I'm no fan of it, but I will not fight it (unless it ends in incident).

I actually only trust the "new blue flag rule" if everybody embraces it. So far I am a bit worried due to discrepancies on both ends of the grid.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Let's practice that tonight? The last chance of doing it...

 

[Reik Major]

It is just that I didn't want the "I'll move over and let people past" thing catch too much on. So the third quote in this post, I'm no fan of it, but I will not fight it (unless it ends in incident).

Well, I also like your "new" method more than the old one. It just seems like it has become so natural for some members to let faster guys through by moving over, so they can't easily switch to the new idea (no offence at all - just an observation from the practise race).

Now it comes to my mind, that I'm the wrong person to argue how a lapped driver could feel the most comfortable when being lapped, because I don't have any experiences from that point of view.

So to give my last statement on this discussion, I have no problems to go on with the new method and see how it works after we got more used to it.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I think this track is also not the best track for getting past even in a competative move, so lapping to is a struggle to get close enough. Im sure the new rules would serve better on a more open attacking track but here really needs alot of help from the car being lapped to get by. Hungary is indeed Monaco 2

 

[Peter Marshall]

How did the lapping/ Blue Flag rule change go?

I'm afraid that I capitulated as soon as the Blue Flags appeared; my old habits kicked in immediately so I did what I thought was "best" for the race leaders and myself. I don't feel that I lost much time and the passes made appeared "safe" for those concerned.

I do agree that we should all try to do "the same" agreed procedures if possible; which I didn't I am thinking....

 

[Valter Ostman]

When Reik, Tim and Sean came along I did the wrong thing but I guess they liked the way it came out.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I can understand why you did it the old way, when the pressure is on etc... I might have done it myself... or maybe not, who knows.

I think we need a softening to this rule to make it work better.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

I had one lapping moment, i went deep, by accident but Reik was quick to capitalize the opportunity. My tires were all gone by then, i was slipping badly the whole lap. It was safe, i got the message right away as Reik launched to pass... Ended up holding the 2nd place guy for two corners as i pitted in schedule at the end of lap. Prolly caused 2 tenths of damage. After that i couild keep up and no lappings were necessary, i did unlap myself couple of times so with normal race, another round of lappings would've ensued most def.