Alright when was that again.....?

[Richard Wilks]

I love how people try to dismiss the arguments that F1 is boring these days with the typical "it was always boring!".

I saw someone mentioned 88-89, conveniently forgetting that in those two years, the championship went down to the wire between two greats of the sport that happened to be in the same team.

The ferrari schumacher years? Two dominant years, 2002 and 2004, and the rest were actually balanced. Numbers prove it. Championship down to the wire 2000 2001 and 2003. As well as 99.

Williams in the 90s? One dominant year,1992. In 93 Mclaren and benetton won various races, and in 96 there was again intra team fighting.

The turbo era? Prost won 86 against the williams team in one of the most disputed championships of all time, and even in 87 it went down to the penultimate race, before Mansell broke his back, in yet another intra team fight. 84, half a point between two teammates to decide the championship. 85, Alboreto and Ferrari even led the championship at some point.

If we look at the history of the sport, there were no other dominant periods like Red Bull in the early 2010s, and surely not like Mercedes since 2014.

I know this is a bit off topic, but i hate history revisionim to fit agendas.

 

[Damage Inc]

I’m speaking from experience...I’ve seen some that were light on battles and overtakes beyond the first 5-10 laps...just like today’s races. Don’t even talk about 88 and 89 for example...as I said earlier, McLaren were the Mercedes of that time; they won nearly all the races during those two years. There were also amazing races of course, but my point is there have beern also great races in the modern era...to say every race since the hybrid era lacked action is very misguided. The cars of today are technical monsters, modern and very tech heavy...but so we’re those 80’s cars...

There are always growing pains with innovations, but they’re improving/refining it...maybe the 2022 cars (and beyond) might change your mindset one day.

Mclarens dominance was just as bad as mercs, but only 2-3 years, whereas we've had SEVEN years of Merc dominace, with only a couple were there was any fight from another team to get remotely close. That Dominance is the main reason for Lewis' stats and it's his stats that are the main reason for people saying he's the GOAT.

He's had no defining race where he has overcome adversity (like Senna at Donington, Schumacher when his car got stuck in gear etc etc) he's enjoyed the most reliable and safest era in F1 history compared to previous legends.

 

[Damage Inc]

For me yes he is to equal alonso in his first season that was special since then he's not been everyones cup of tea and if i'm honest he turned into a bit of an idiot but his talent is unquestionable

To say if he is the GOAT as say Rossi is in Motogp is very hard he's had the best car for some time now but such is true of many greats MS included.

Rosberg who was not untalented had to go to such levels to beat him levels that he was not willing to continue that speaks highly to me of the raw talent Hamilton has.

Rossi's status as GOAT is questioned as much if not more than Hamiltons.

 

[GP STONER]

Rossi's status as GOAT is questioned as much if not more than Hamiltons.

Rossi is more a goat then lewis.sorry to say.. yes mm93 is a monster (in the good way) but rossi is still a goat.

And no i am not a rossi fan infact ...

 

[pitkin]

Sure, but nobody else than Hamilton has got poles and wins even in an inferior car every season. Only Schumacher and Senna come close.

It is a bit easier to do that if you've spent the entirety of your career in one of the top three teams though. What was his worst car? The '09 Mclaren maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head. I think Schumacher was just as fortunate.

When he's doing what Damon Hill did in the Arrows in Hungary and Jerez in 1997 I'll be impressed, but I don't think he'd risk his reputation by going to a team like that.

He has talent no doubt and is clearly up there. He proved himself against Alonso, but circumstances have helped along the way, as they do all the greats. As I said before, how many have we missed, just because they didn't have the right equipment?

 

[fatal4you]

It is a bit easier to do that if you've spent the entirety of your career in one of the top three teams though. What was his worst car? The '09 Mclaren maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head. I think Schumacher was just as fortunate.

When he's doing what Damon Hill did in the Arrows in Hungary and Jerez in 1997 I'll be impressed, but I don't think he'd risk his reputation by going to a team like that.

He has talent no doubt and is clearly up there. He proved himself against Alonso, but circumstances have helped along the way, as they do all the greats. As I said before, how many have we missed, just because they didn't have the right equipment?

Agree, I also had to think of Damon Hill in the Arrows when this thread was discussing GOAT.

 

[PottoGadd]

This is the greatest car too. He was pretty much the sole reason the car could aim for the World Championship in the early parts of 1974 and remained even remotely competitive in 1975.

He worked miracles with some terrible cars. His nine pole positions in 1973 and when he didn't have the pole position he was usually right behind or next to that car. I'm pretty sure I have heard spoken in the pitlane on film about him not having parts as good as Fittipaldi during some periods of 1973 too but I won't get into that because it's probably even more controversial than the 1978 season. His pole position records along with the nine pole positions that Niki Lauda had in 1975 and Nelson Piquet had in 1984 with undeniably quicker cars than the Lotus was in 1973 stood until 1988. That was when the most dominant car that was probably ever seen until then appeared with two of the greatest drivers of all time. I would say that 1988 and then 1992 were the first true signs of the modern dominance that we have seen but I could be wrong.

He had so many good drives in 1971. The 1972 season wasn't all that good until March built the 721G. Him running circles around the other elite drivers at Montjuïc in 1973 before the car failed and all the other wins that reliability robbed him of that year. His charge at Monaco in 1974 when he set a new lap record and won even after the shunt. Him holding onto first place at Monza in 1974 in an eerily similar fashion to last year. His potential win at Monaco in 1975 ruined by an absolute disaster of a pitstop that took a minute and fifteen seconds which was timed on film before he could start pulling out of the pits, and he still finished under forty seconds behind the leader in that dog of a car. His drive at Monaco in 1976 before hitting the oil spill. His win at Monza in 1976 along with his pole position at Zandvoort with some other great driving done in that mediocre car. The race at Zolder in 1977. His win at Kyalami in 1978 which is one of the most tense last laps ever filmed to this day. His charge back up the field at Zolder in 1978. His win at the Österreichring in 1978 in the rain. Those are just a few that come from the top of my head.

That is just in Formula One as he dominated Formula Two in 1971 too and did well in other categories too.

I'm not going to blindly say that he is the greatest because you can argue all day about the likes of Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, etc, but to me he sure is even if several other drivers have come close.

 

[Damage Inc]

Rossi is more a goat then lewis.sorry to say.. yes mm93 is a monster (in the good way) but rossi is still a goat.

And no i am not a rossi fan infact ...

Totally agree on first point. But many say Ago is Goat, or MM. I'm just saying Rossi hasn't got universal support in being called Goat...and he's done more than Lewis did.

 

[Antony Snook]

You can argue which doctor, actor, philosopher, cook chief is the best. But in sports the best is who wins more.

That is not true Mat Kenseth won the NASCAR tittle with 1 win all season. He did it by finishing in top 10 and eliminating retirements. So it was done on consistency not wins. drivers with more wins had more retirments and felt cheated so the format was chainged to a playoff at the end of the season eliminating the weakest drivers over the last 10 events. So the champion has to be on form over the last 10 races to win the tittle.

 

[Antony Snook]

You can argue which doctor, actor, philosopher, cook chief is the best. But in sports the best is who wins more.

Keke Rosberg got a tittle on consistencey when the best scores rule was in place. Though he had less wins.

 

[Antony Snook]

I think this question is impossible to answer, as the sport has changed so much over the decades. I will always pick Schumacher as the greatest, no matter how many championships Hamilton takes.

Schumacher would be 8 if not for his broken leg at Silverstone, Hamilton lost to Rosberg and Raikkonen, in years he should have easily won.

My favourite drivers is a whole different question.

Schumacher also took blame for running into Hill at Australia. Footage shows he hit the wall and may of damaged his rear outside tires suspension. Giving little control to avoid Hill. Then there was when he bulked up his weight and shaved it of in the season. The rule makers took harsh meashures on both these situations giving the tittle to the runner up. Thogh both situations may not of been planed, as in they happened by coincidence.

 

[pitkin]

How often do we hear from commentators "given the right car, he could be champion."?

Expand that to "given the right car for multiple seasons and he could be GOAT."

In most seasons I've watched since I began in '85, there have been 1, sometimes 2 and not very often 3 cars that are going to go for the title, so that's 6 drivers at most in a year that have a chance. A lot of the time the best drivers aren't even in the best cars due to teams having a no.1 driver policy. How can we ever know who's the best if they didn't have the same opportunities?

That's the problem with F1, there's very often only 1 "right car"

 

[derp6445]

Schumacher, Hamilton, Senna and Fangio are all GOATs of their respective eras.

Fangio was the GOAT in an era where if you crashed, you died.
Senna was the GOAT in an era where cars put out 1450hp and blew up regularly.
Schumacher was the GOAT in an era where engines were screaming loud and cars had TC.
Hamilton is the GOAT in an era where the cars are tech labs on drugs.
Debate over.

 

[derp6445]

LOL, not even at top 10. In fact, how is this possible? There is no F1 since 2014.

Your logic says that there was no F1 in 1988, 2002, 2004 too.

 

[Alex Butters]

Does Lewis Hamilton deserve a knighthood? 100% - he is one of the greatest F1 drivers of all time, one of the greatest British sporting icons of all time, and has begun to create a legacy beyond F1 (anyone who thinks sport & social issues / politics shouldn’t mix should remember Muhammad Ali / Billie Jean, etc.)

Is Lewis THE greatest? Personally for me, Fangio Clark Senna Prost are above Lewis. That’s no insult to the greatness of Lewis Hamilton though - up there with Alonso as greatest F1 driver so far in the 21st century.

 

[aka2k]

I’m speaking from experience...I’ve seen some that were light on battles and overtakes beyond the first 5-10 laps...just like today’s races. Don’t even talk about 88 and 89 for example...as I said earlier, McLaren were the Mercedes of that time; they won nearly all the races during those two years. There were also amazing races of course, but my point is there have beern also great races in the modern era...to say every race since the hybrid era lacked action is very misguided. The cars of today are technical monsters, modern and very tech heavy...but so we’re those 80’s cars...

There are always growing pains with innovations, but they’re improving/refining it...maybe the 2022 cars (and beyond) might change your mindset one day.

Maybe you should rewatch the F1 from the old days. I started following F1 around 1987 - when I was old enough to understand what was it. It was really exciting and the drivers didn't need a button to overtake.

Nowadays F1 is a stalled category waaaay too focused on engineering over driver skills. I can't hardly imagine a driver directly helping developing anything now, when the likes of Prost were directly responsible for the car personality back in the day. Only engineers can understand what's going on with the current cars and how to develop them.

Also there's tons of contrived rules that seriously hamper any really interesting development beyond aerodynamics. Not to mention how fugly the cars are.

If F1 wants to thrive again, they need to simplify the rules and stop trying to pass political statements. Just be a damn sport again and let the best driver win instead of the best engineers.

 

[Kurvz]

No

 

[ZuneGuy]

I personally don't think that there is a single greatest of all time/ I just think that certain drivers were clearly more talented than others in there time driving in their eras. Lewis is clearly more talented, and more confident than any today, and for me personally he's more than any driver that I have ever seen. There are other drivers who were very talented in their craft, but unlike Lewis they were not known for being clean drivers. Basically Schumacher was known for being dirty and a cheater, while the late (and certainly great) Senna was known for being a danger to others on track.

 

[hudham]

Karting is a blast, 4 stroke briggs LO206 racing is affordable fun! Speeds aren't crazy, a good club has members that race with respect for fun so less accidents. But yes bumps happen but we have been involved for 6 years and no injuries and only witnessed minor stuff. Where do you live?

 

[PottoGadd]

I personally don't think that there is a single greatest of all time/ I just think that certain drivers were clearly more talented than others in there time driving in their eras. Lewis is clearly more talented, and more confident than any today, and for me personally he's more than any driver that I have ever seen. There are other drivers who were very talented in their craft, but unlike Lewis they were not known for being clean drivers. Basically Schumacher was known for being dirty and a cheater, while the late (and certainly great) Senna was known for being a danger to others on track.

There are more than three talented drivers in history. There was a time when the great majority of the drivers were clean drivers because if they attempted to crash into somebody else to win their World Driver Championship they both risked suffering a grave injury. They had a great respect for each other. There wasn't a single Formula One death between 1982 and 1994 if you only count official Grand Prix events which certainly contributed to the dirty behaviour of certain drivers.