Alright when was that again.....?

Hey Stroll, I know you voted for yourself.

Must be nice to be able to do this "daddy, pretty please can you buy me an f1 team daddy". Good for him, if you can than why not, it's just a little funny in some ways.
You should cut him a bit of slack: he'll never be WM material, but I've seen a lot worse in F1 over the years. Maldonado, Inue (sp?), Nakajima etc. At least he's not so embarrassingly slow that other drivers trip over him :D
 
+1
Another thread turned into "is Hamilton the GOAT or you dumb*ss think he's not". Does he need to be everyone's favorite ? I already said... he's one of the few fastest now - and when I say that I mean if everyone got the very same car Ham would come to podium for most of the time but GOAT ? C'mon... how many times we heard that drivers for different eras can't be compared. And they are right every time.

Yup, it's also moot because we all know Rossi is the GOAT! ;)
 
In comparison, people allways try to link Schumachers success to Ferrari, but they forget that he won two titles with Benetton with cars that weren't necessarily the best (even according to Berger and Alesi who found the Benetton to be undrivable). And it get's even more extreme when you take a look at how many of his wins were achieved in Benettons or Ferraris that were far behind McLaren or Williams in the early and late 90s when seasons didn't have 20 races. The chance of success for Hamilton is just so much higher these days and it's important to keep that in mind when people put his name among those greats.

Yeah, there is for sure an argument that those Benettons were not as quick as Williams (despite having some questionable "technology" in them). But you can equally make the case that McLaren 2008 wasn't necessarily the best car, Ferrari really had the edge over them I'd say 70% of time in dry weather. So it then becomes the question how many championships do you need to win with a worse car to become a legend? Did Fangio win championships with worse cars? Did Senna? Hakkinen and Vettel for sure didn't. I don't see this discussion taking place anywhere, most people just refer to old multiple times champions as legends.
 
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Agree 100%! Much as I like and support Hamilton, it's his championship to lose and I doubt it will be particularly close. But the mid-field racing is excellent - I'm really only focused on watching the battles between RP, Mclaren and Renault for the most part. It's fantastic stuff right now.

I got really annoyed at the TV commentators and race directors for not spotting that Lando Norris was catching Sainz at an incredible rate, lap after lap. People are only talking about his last couple of laps, but it's not the whole story.
I do not like the F1 announcers. Brundle needs to go. They need to take lessons from the IndyCar broadcast team.
 

BP

Premium
Yeah, there is for sure an argument that those Benettons were not as quick as Williams (despite having some questionable "technology" in them). But you can equally make the case that McLaren 2008 wasn't necessarily the best car, Ferrari really had the edge over them I'd say 70% of time in dry weather. So it then becomes the question how many championships do you need to win with a worse car to become a legend? Did Fangio win championships with worse cars? Did Senna? Hakkinen and Vettel for sure didn't. I don't see this discussion taking place anywhere, most people just refer to old multiple times champions as legends.

This is precisely my point...I don't expect nor want everyone to like Hamilton, I'm just asking that people be fair when they judge his legacy, as I feel he has to jump through more hoops to be taken seriously. Love him or hate him I really don't care, but if you're applying one barometer of success to him, you have to apply it to all, as mentioned in the above post.
 
This is my take on Hamilton: He's very very good, it's among the best in history, no doubt.. but let's review the 4 last world champion titles. Mercedes has been having the best car among the grid and that is not only a tiny bit of best car, it's by far the best car. Now, try to imagine Vettel on the Mercedes and Hamilton in the Ferrari. Maybe today we were talking about Vettel and not Hamilton. Hamilton drives the best car and I doubt he had won the 4 last seasons with other car. Still, Hamilton is top, I can doubt about it. It's just it feels that he wins because Mercedes invest more to win. It's like a pay to win feeling.
 
Thing is with motorsport, the truly defining part of what makes a champ IS the vehicle, Hamilton in the McLaren at the start of the 2010's couldn't do a thing, doesn't matter how talented you are if the car is crap. Button outscored Hamilton in the 3 years they drove together in the same cars.

Some people hated the Ferrrari/Schumacher dominance, the Merc dominance has been far far worse, apart from a couple of blips (Valteri's first year in the Merc and his awful 2018), the Mercs finished one-two 5 times out of the last 7 years....that's the car.
 

Ruttman98

Premium
Two of the biggest names in auto racing — NASCAR hall of famers Ray Evernham and Tony Stewart — will launch an auto racing circuit that has the potential to be the biggest disrupter to the auto racing business in decades.


With top agent Sandy Montag and former NASCAR COO George Pyne rounding out the four-person board, Superstar Racing Experience (SRX) will feature six short-track races starting next summer.

SRX already has a TV deal in place with CBS, which has committed to carry the Saturday night races in prime time next year. The CBS deal runs for multiple years.

SRX has no outside investors; it is being underwritten by the four board members. Startup costs currently run in the low seven-figure range. Those costs will ramp up next summer when the races start, but SRX expects to have sponsors on board to defray those costs.

 

BP

Premium
This is my take on Hamilton: He's very very good, it's among the best in history, no doubt.. but let's review the 4 last world champion titles. Mercedes has been having the best car among the grid and that is not only a tiny bit of best car, it's by far the best car. Now, try to imagine Vettel on the Mercedes and Hamilton in the Ferrari. Maybe today we were talking about Vettel and not Hamilton. Hamilton drives the best car and I doubt he had won the 4 last seasons with other car. Still, Hamilton is top, I can doubt about it. It's just it feels that he wins because Mercedes invest more to win. It's like a pay to win feeling.
Thing is with motorsport, the truly defining part of what makes a champ IS the vehicle, Hamilton in the McLaren at the start of the 2010's couldn't do a thing, doesn't matter how talented you are if the car is crap. Button outscored Hamilton in the 3 years they drove together in the same cars.

Some people hated the Ferrrari/Schumacher dominance, the Merc dominance has been far far worse, apart from a couple of blips (Valteri's first year in the Merc and his awful 2018), the Mercs finished one-two 5 times out of the last 7 years....that's the car.

1) As stated before, very few champions won in the best car, and Lewis is arguably one of those few in 2008 with the Ferrari having just a bit more pace that year. So he did it under both conditions. Senna, as amazing as he was, only won his 3 titles in the best car, but he proved himself by being fast in the rain and in qualifying....speaking of which:

2) Rain is the great equalizer when it comes to determining driver ability over car performance and Lewis has proven many times (last Saturday most recently) that he is among the greatest in the rain...beating Max by 1.2 secs in heavy rain in qualifying on a 1 minute track is no small feat.

3) Alternative facts? Button did not beat Hamilton all 3 years...only once in 2011; Hamilton beat him in 2010 and 2012.
 
1) As stated before, very few champions won in the best car, and Lewis is arguably one of those few in 2008 with the Ferrari having just a bit more pace that year. So he did it under both conditions. Senna, as amazing as he was, only won his 3 titles in the best car, but he proved himself by being fast in the rain and in qualifying....speaking of which:

2) Rain is the great equalizer when it comes to determining driver ability over car performance and Lewis has proven many times (last Saturday most recently) that he is among the greatest in the rain...beating Max by 1.2 secs in heavy rain in qualifying on a 1 minute track is no small feat.

3) Alternative facts? Button did not beat Hamilton all 3 years...only once in 2011; Hamilton beat him in 2010 and 2012.

hang on very "few" champs win in the best car? eh? It's not all about pure pace/speed (look at Ducati in MGP)...it's the overall package, yes speed is important, but so is grip, drivability and reliability. The vehicle that ticks the most boxes is the "best" vehicle. Often the "fastest car/bike" is not neccesarily the best. Hamilton was a tad lucky in 2008, I feel sorry for Massa, he had a lot of bad luck that year.

I know Lewis is good in the rain, most of the top drivers are. I have never said Lewis is not an exceptional driver. But having the best car helps considerably in the wet, over driving a car in the wet tends to lead to disaster. I personally don't think Lewis ever has to overdrive his Merc.

Lastly, read what I said "outscored". in the 3 years they shared the same car Button scored 672 points to Hamiltons 657 equal footing...not many think Button is the GOAT do they? The difference between the drivers is probably very marginal, the main difference is the vehicle and Mercedes utter dominance is a MAJOR point of Lewis' Success...like I said FIVE 1-2s in 7 years...I've trawled the stats and no team I found has ever had that level of dominance in the past 20 years. It's the car, but you have to be a damn good driver that's a given. But I still think Shcumacher is the GOAT (in F1) for a few reasons, he helped develope the Ferrari with Brawn and Todt, Hamilton's dominance coincided with the Hybrid rule change. Scumacher suffered a major injury (leg break) Hamilton has suffered no injuries, Schumacher and Ferrari had more reliability issues I remember Schumacher getting a result with ONE gear working on his car....the Merc could take a nuke and still win (slight Hyperble there!).

just checked stats back to the late 80's

Mclarens Prost/Senna dominance - two 1-2 WDC in a row
Williams three 1-2, only 2 in a row
Ferrari's Schumacher Dominance only 2 1-2s, not even in a row.

So Mercedes has FIVE 1-2 in the WDC out of the last seven years, once again the CAR is the main reason IMO.

Lewis is damn good, best of the current crop...but GOAT? No way.
 

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