5 Great Chicanes in Sim Racing

Aki Korhonen said:

hermann tilkes made tracks has no good chicanes or corners. he shouldnt desing any tracks

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I'm hardly a great fan of Tilke overall, but I'd say his issues tend to be matters of:
1. Coming off as unoriginal/repetitive in certain design elements
2. Not being able to put together a full lap that doesn't somehow feel a bit disjointed
3. Adhering too closely to the letter of the technical regs in Appendix O

Even at most of his tracks that I like the least, there are at least a few corners and/or combos that I do think are good. But yeah, I don't think there are any of his sequences that I'd characterize as "chicanes" that I like or enjoy.

The little right left chicane before the back straight at Oschersleben is fun. The old Dingle Dell on the Brands Hatch GP loop was technically a chicane too wasn't it?

Three of my personal favourites:

Montreal - Turns 3 & 4 - wide turn in and keep the speed and get as close to the wall on the exit as you dare

Interlagos - Senna 'S' - be as late as you dare on the brakes for an overtake or silky smooth in picking up a fast lap.

Brands Hatch Indy - Surtees into Clearways (is it technically a chicane?) - Using artistic licence with this one as its a left right combo where you carry the speed.

Honorrable mention to Donnington Park National and the final chicane.

RasmusP said:

I really like the big double chicane at Watkins Glen. Doing quite some LFM Rookie Races there this week in ACC, it's the most exciting moment of the lap, when you enter the braking zone side by side, sometimes 3 or even 4 wide!
99% of the time it went well, amazing.

It's the thrill of who dares to brake later and whether or not that one will make it through or lose time.

The good thing is that if you're careful and both brake earlier than usually, you can even go completely side by side through the whole section!

I don't know if this is an ACC "fail" or semi-realistic, but there are 2 massive issues though:

1) the red, I guess water filled "barrier" blocks in the infield are 100% solid in ACC. Flying straight across the chicane will instantly kill your car without hope.
I guess in reality, they only slow you down so you won't fly into traffic if your brakes fail or whatever.
I really don't get this. ACC has a pretty good cut detection system and semi-solid objects for brake markers.

2) if you go onto the right at the second part, visually everything is smooth, but there are physical bumps that shoot your whole car into the air and throw you into traffic/barriers even when just rolling straight at reduced speeds.
This ruins a lot of races for multiple drivers since you can't anticipate where that car will be spit out at.

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I have to agree. I am a fan of the bus stop style chicanes. The one on Daytona road course is fun too. As for number 1, I would imagine same would happen in real life, blow though there and race over. Never experienced the issue in 2.

DB_1973 said:

I have to agree. I am a fan of the bus stop style chicanes. The one on Daytona road course is fun too.

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Yep, but they need to be chicanes that allow for going side by side if very careful. The current bus stop at the end of Spa is fun in GT3/GT4 cars. You can go into them side by side and depending on your average speed and line, you might even go side by side down the start/finish straight!

The chicane at the Nürburgring is NOT fun though. Doesn't matter if GT or GP chicanes. If you go side by side, you either have to go at 50% speed or one of you will wipe out.

The wider one at Road Atlanta is great again though. Flat kerbs and enough space to keep it safe, as long as you stay careful enough.

DB_1973 said:

As for number 1, I would imagine same would happen in real life, blow though there and race over.

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There are actually no barricades in real life.. I had a look at the 6h race of 2022 and at the satellite view of Google & Apple Maps.
Maybe ACC only gives 1 warning per cut and you could decide to get one warning but overtake 20 cars in the first lap there...

DB_1973 said:

Never experienced the issue in 2.

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All looking smooth with a little crest:



How about some airtime?

RasmusP said:

Yep, but they need to be chicanes that allow for going side by side if very careful. The current bus stop at the end of Spa is fun in GT3/GT4 cars. You can go into them side by side and depending on your average speed and line, you might even go side by side down the start/finish straight!

The chicane at the Nürburgring is NOT fun though. Doesn't matter if GT or GP chicanes. If you go side by side, you either have to go at 50% speed or one of you will wipe out.

The wider one at Road Atlanta is great again though. Flat kerbs and enough space to keep it safe, as long as you stay careful enough.

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I don't consider the chicanes at Spa, Nürburgring and RA to be bus stops, I see those as normal chicanes. I do agree being able to go though side by side is key.

RasmusP said:

There are actually no barricades in real life.. I had a look at the 6h race of 2022 and at the satellite view of Google & Apple Maps.
Maybe ACC only gives 1 warning per cut and you could decide to get one warning but overtake 20 cars in the first lap there...

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I would have to agree that you are probably right, on stopping people making up 20 spots by one off track.

RasmusP said:

All looking smooth with a little crest:



How about some airtime?

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That's a hell of a white line. I don't run ACC much, but that should be fixed. LOL

DB_1973 said:

I don't consider the chicanes at Spa, Nürburgring and RA to be bus stops, I see those as normal chicanes. I do agree being able to go though side by side is key.

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Yeah they aren't. I only call the one at Spa till bus stop, although it isn't anymore.

DB_1973 said:

That's a hell of a white line. I don't run ACC much but that should be fixed. LOL

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Yeah haha. Apparently the lidar scanner recorded some massive bumps there but they aren't implemented visually.
I know that these "invisible edges" from edges of gravel pits and grass areas due to the underlying surface but this one is on tarmac and just crazy, lol

RasmusP said:

Yeah haha. Apparently the lidar scanner recorded some massive bumps there but they aren't implemented visually.
I know that these "invisible edges" from edges of gravel pits and grass areas due to the underlying surface but this one is on tarmac and just crazy, lol

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Well I would imagine that they build the tracks similar as to AC. As in, you drive on a physical mesh you don't see and see a mesh you don't drive on. That being said you would think the track makers would look at the physical mesh to be sure. Maybe the day they did the scan someone was painting the lines and let a bucket of paint on the line and it was scanned in. LMAO

"Great" and "Chicane" are two words that do not go together.

Chicanes are ****

I don't usually post here, for good reason, but hey ho.

jgf said:

I still say leave the tracks alone and slow the cars, then we have a direct comparison of cars over the years. Smaller engines, less downforce, harder tires; quite simple.

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Cars got too fast for tracks around the late 50s-late 60s.

The only cars we'd be seeing racing would be club cars. There is a place for them, but imagine if F1 started using them, it would put off a lot of people because there is more challenge driving at 200mph than 120.

NASCAR has lowered the HP of the cars, much to the fans despair.

People want to see cars go beyond what they did, you are suggesting we basically "halt" cars speed.

jgf said:

You can't blame a section of a track for one death when thousands of laps have been turned there by hundreds of drivers with no problems. But there was a time when teams and cars and drivers were expected to adapt to the various tracks during a season, the mindset now is to "tweak" all the tracks so the cars and drivers look good there. Dumbing down the sport.

That modern cars are faster at these circuits is irrelevant, I would be surprised if they weren't; but what times would they be running in the original circuits? Speed isn't the issue, it is the flow of the track. Monza is a pale shadow of its former self, Silverstone looks like an overgrown karting track. Tracks with chicanes tacked on are like listening to a piece of music with a skip in the recording.

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I'm certain I'm overthinking what you're saying, but it sounds like you are suggesting

A. Drivers who make mistakes are too stupid to race the track and that todays drivers are too dumb to race older tracks, so therefore every track adjustment has been because drivers are too "dumb"

B. Adding corners to tracks ruins said tracks

First off, lets discuss A. Jochen Rindt was killed in practise at Monza before they installed most of the chicanes they did. By your logic, Rindts death was some kind of Darwinism. A reminder, which I'm sure you don't need, he was so far ahead in the championship he won despite missing the final few rounds. Every driver who was killed from a mistake (something we all do from time to time) was some kind of Darwinism.

Secondly, the original Silverstone and Monza, while fast, honestly offers nothing else. Try doing a time trial around them in cars today and try not be bored after 5 laps.

They had little to no corners so 90% of those tracks are flat out with very little going on to separate the best from the rest (Of course this is exaggerating, superspeedways, ovals and similar tracks still require their own set of skills).

I'm going to say something which may upset others (I'm someone who is not completely adherent to opinions that are the most popular or get the most likes) but the Mulsanne chicanes, along with everything else added to Le Mans over the decades has added more challenge than it once had. I may as well make a cup of tea while driving the uninterrupted Mulsanne because nothing happens.

The chicanes are a nice balance between being fast enough that they add flow to the circuit but slow enough to wake me up after nodding off. You can also get loose getting back on the power, leading to more overtaking chances.

Silverstone in its original form is just straights separated by the odd corner. Monza is fairly similar.

Monaco has lord knows how many slow corners and chicanes but that is part of the challenge which makes the race a triple crown event.

jgf said:

All those accidents, and deaths, were caused by the drivers and cars, not by the tracks themselves. So change the source of the problem and stop blaming the tracks. Thousands of people die in highway accidents every year, will changing the highways alter that? No. Teach people to drive (futile, hence we are getting autonomous cars ...I don't trust a computer driving a car either).

BTW, 40 drivers have died at Daytona and 70 at IMS, no one is lobbying to alter those tracks.

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When people like Lauda say the track is not suitable for racing, it isn't.

Imagine if a highway had some stupidly ridiculous corner or roundabout that even the best drivers would struggle with. You'd want that changed.

Your solution I guess would be to implement a 5 mph speed limit or let drivers die needless deaths.

Daytona and IMS are exceptions because those are ovals and most incidents there are car failures or mistakes. Those tracks have still changed over the years, Indy especially.

You can't edit those tracks much because it isn't oval racing if the track isn't oval.

But add restrictor plates or slow the cars down on tracks with corners tighter than that on ovals?

You get that New Hampshire race where no overtakes happened.


Now yes, I do agree that sometimes, you should leave the track alone. But sometimes the only way a track can be used is if it is altered.

I'd rather have Monza with chicanes (while allowing for slower cars to use more original variants) than it be the site of housing.

Well, restrictor plates were mandated by NASCAR at only two tracks, not because the cars were too fast per se but because at those speeds on such high banked ovals the centrifugal force was too much for tires of that era to handle. I'm sure there are better tires today, but the plates are still in use. I was/am against them for a different reason; the sanctioning body for any series specifies the design of the cars, that should be the specification for every race on the schedule. But the more affluent NASCARE teams have extended this concept now to ridiculous extremes - "this is our short track car, and this is our speedway car, and over here is our road course car...." Bah!

I never said any drivers were "dumb". I said the tracks are being "dumbed down". How many drivers turned how many laps in how many different cars at Imola? Yet one popular, and very capable, driver gets killed there and suddenly the track is inundated with chicanes.

Nurburgring was dropped not because it was inherently unsafe but because of the enormous logistics challenge of adequately marshaling such a track.

xminxG said:

Silverstone in its original form is just straights separated by the odd corner. Monza is fairly similar. .... I may as well make a cup of tea while driving the uninterrupted Mulsanne because nothing happens.

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You must be speaking of sim racing. No driver on any track is ever bored in RL; whether a 70hp Spitfire on your local club circuit or a 700hp Porsche at LeMans, you are never bored.

As I said, Silverstone is now an overblown karting track - a bunch of tight squiggles where you're constantly sawing the wheel back and forth, and heaven forbid you actually get the car into top gear. Monza gained its reputation as a high speed track; a reputation now besmirched when every time you hit top gear you must brake for a little zig-zag.

xminxG said:

Imagine if a highway had some stupidly ridiculous corner or roundabout that even the best drivers would struggle with.

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In my location alone dozens of people are killed or maimed every year on city streets, and not once has it been blamed on the street. "Driver error" is the cause of 99% of such incidents, on the street or the track.

xminxG said:

Monaco has lord knows how many slow corners and chicanes but that is part of the challenge which makes the race a triple crown event.

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This "triple crown event" is little more than a high speed parade during a weekend of festivities in a town full of multi-millionaires, many of whom are F1 owners, drivers, or other notables. How does it rank as a track? If this track existed, just as it is - same map, same width, same turns, same elevations - on a hill in the French countryside, and you proposed an F1 race there .... they would laugh in your face. It wouldn't even be a decent club circuit.

Ultimately, whatever series you prefer, the drivers are supposed to be the "cream of the crop", "experts", "professionals". Thus they should know how to handle any circuit. When they have complained of any circuit it is typically due to facilities or condition, not the layout of the track itself.

Slowing the cars is a viable alternative, and much cheaper than constantly butchering the tracks. When NASCARE was considering this 25 years ago Dale Earnhardt was asked about slowing the cars ... "When you're in the grandstands you can't tell if I'm going 160 or 180, you just want to see good close racin'".

jgf said:

Slowing the cars is a viable alternative, and much cheaper than constantly butchering the tracks. When NASCARE was considering this 25 years ago Dale Earnhardt was asked about slowing the cars ... "When you're in the grandstands you can't tell if I'm going 160 or 180, you just want to see good close racin'".

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I find it funny you mention Dale Earnhardt of all people about slowing cars down when he made his opinion on restrictor plates very clear. You slow the cars down, without corners, you get pack racing, where the speed of the cars, not the drivers, become more and more important.

I never said any drivers were "dumb". I said the tracks are being "dumbed down"

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Thank you for clarifying. But I still disagree that normal things such as car failures or mistakes that end in injury or fatality necessitates the cars being slowed down. If you have a track like Imola in which they couldn't put the barrier further away due to the river, then alteration of the track is the only way to allow that series to keep racing there. You aren't going to slow F1 cars down to entry level speed because that changes what F1 is.

Imagine if the Isle of Man TT began to mandate scooters because the track is too dangerous to be run on the bikes they are now.

jgf said:

This "triple crown event" is little more than a high speed parade during a weekend of festivities in a town full of multi-millionaires, many of whom are F1 owners, drivers, or other notables. How does it rank as a track? If this track existed, just as it is - same map, same width, same turns, same elevations - on a hill in the French countryside, and you proposed an F1 race there .... they would laugh in your face. It wouldn't even be a decent club circuit.

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Its the biggest challenge the drivers get all year. No run off, inches away from the barriers.
You criticise me for saying that old silverstone and monza are boring, because no one finds actually racing in RL boring only to call Monaco boring.

And on the argument it would be laughed at if it was anywhere else, well, rally exists. You just described something similar to Rally Corsica.

Speaking of, what was the reaction when the 500hp Group B cars were banned immediately to be replaced by slower, less powerful Group A cars? The popularity of rally dropped. Of course when Group A got competitive it bounced back.


Simply put, I'd recommend you stop watching road racing, its obviously not for you. If you want to see the MX-5 race in the Indy 500, fine. If you want to simply mash the throttle for 100% of the race, because corners existing annoys you, fine by me. If you want to have cars going the speed you see people doing on the motorway, because the track cannot be safely run any faster, fine.

If you want every track to be cookie cutter tracks that are basically the same, with no differences in what cars or setups are advantageous there, fine.

But I doubt many would find that attractive. Again, I'm not fully disagreeing, alterations to tracks are overused nowadays, but this issue is a case by case basis. This issue depends on value judgements.

It depends on whether you think a slight alteration to the track or an extra corner is worse than slowing the cars down.

To me, the tracks being altered is better as long as the corner remains faithful to the rest of the track.

Alcañiz, 'portalón' chicane min 1:14

followed by another chicane with powerful braking in support and subsequent passage over a bridge that does not fit two cars

xminxG said:

You aren't going to slow F1 cars down to entry level speed because that changes what F1 is.

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You do not drive full bore all the time, if you do not know when to slow you are not a professional.

xminxG said:

You criticise me for saying that old silverstone and monza are boring, because no one finds actually racing in RL boring only to call Monaco boring.

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I did not say Monaco was boring. It is an anachronism that would not be in use if it were anywhere else but in the middle of millionaires' playground.

xminxG said:

If you want every track to be cookie cutter tracks that are basically the same, with no differences in what cars or setups are advantageous there, fine.

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A perfect description of modern F1. Twenty years of Tilke clones - flat, featureless, cookie cutter designs. Where are the Brands Hatch, Watkins Glen, Mosport?

xminxG said:

Simply put, I'd recommend you stop watching road racing, its obviously not for you.

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Lol. My first race was an SCCA Jr event in summer of '70; got my TransAm license in '78; Indycar test in '80; test driver in IMSA and "C-Era" in early/mid '80s; drifted into vintage racing, where I had a blast for twenty years. "Hung up my helmet" fifteen years ago when it was obvious I was no longer pushing myself or the car as I should. Along the way I got seat time in everything from 2CVs to F1, but was happiest in endurance racing ...though I begrudged having to get out every four hours and let someone else have a turn.

Taruffi said:

They are running smaller engines, though often with turbos. Smaller engines can do more now anyway than used to be the case. They are running less downforce, but with the penalty of more drag in how the rules are mandating downforce be reduced. So you want them to manipulate tires, just in a different way? It's not as blatant as, say, DRS, I guess, but couldn't that, too, be considered another gimmick in and of itself? And why would the tire companies want to make themselves look bad?

And again, the perceptions of the observers of the events matter, too, if you want them to be a commercial success. Nobody's going to be impressed by lap times or speeds that haven't improved in 50 years. And most people don't take the deep dive into the technical side of things that we do; they just don't care. And an essential part of what made those earlier eras of racing so appealing was the ongoing innovations, not that they were artificially stuck at one point and just held back to there. (And many of those innovations tended to be visually obvious enough that even the layperson could see them.)

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Agreed. We have enough gimmicks and manipulating cars enough.

Chicanes and other added corners are fine so long as they are respectful to the flow of the existing track.

I find the view that Silverstone was a shadow of itself with the 00s layout to be ridiculous.
That layout had fast sweeping corners which had a rhythm to them.

But with the new layout, that first sector kills the flow, so you go from a fast right hander into a fast left and then a tight, twisty section? Then the rest of the track has fast sweeping corners.

Le Mans has managed to keep fast while adding more to the track. You can't just bring a car made to go fast on straights no more, you have to use the best car for both long straights and fast sweeping turns.

Where once you just went straight on, the Dunlop chicane adds a tough braking zone during turn in where you can either nail the apex or lock up and destroy your tyres.


Personally, I'm a sucker for big kerb chicanes.


Something so satisfying going flat through those chicanes hopping about.

That top is forgetting something

1- Corkscrew
2- Acqua Minerale
3- Old Neuvelle / Chicane du Port
4- Adenauer Forst
5- Bus Stop

A good chicane is always a great driving challenge on a race.

I like the three chicanes on Monza or the three chicanes on Zolder