2021 Formula One Sao Paulo Grand Prix

Amereto1 · Nov 16, 2021

PickABetterUsername01 said:
More steering angle doesn't mean more turn in.

??? I don't know what this means in relation to my WHOLE comment.

If a steward is looking at this incident, what out of those 3 things would suggest Max tried to make the corner. None!
If you slow it down, and watch the RPM lights, Max hits the accelerator twice mid corner, the second longer one to force Lewis wide or crash.

Paul Glover · Nov 16, 2021

LeSunTzu said:
Just in case it was missed:

Thing is even with this new footage I'm still leaning that the stewards have made the right call, had Max braked too late and missed the apex yes. Has he intentionally done something to force Lewis off the track, I don't think you can conclusively say yes.

It needs to be obvious for the stewards to make a decision, same as any other sport.

Also, people really need to stop judging this incident based on previous ones. It doesn't work like that! You deal with each incident on it's own merit.

It is also clear to me that people with an agenda can't actually discuss or hear and debate other opinions, you just try to shout other people down. That is not how it works people.

Mr. Malarkey · Nov 16, 2021

Paul Glover said:
Thing is even with this new footage I'm still leaning that the stewards have made the right call, had Max braked too late and missed the apex yes. Has he intentionally done something to force Lewis off the track, I don't think you can conclusively say yes.

It needs to be obvious for the stewards to make a decision, same as any other sport.

Also, people really need to stop judging this incident based on previous ones. It doesn't work like that! You deal with each incident on it's own merit.

It is also clear to me that people with an agenda can't actually discuss or hear and debate other opinions, you just try to shout other people down. That is not how it works people.

The voice of reason, right here.

LMGiorni · Nov 16, 2021

LeSunTzu said:
Just in case it was missed:

Remember the manouver of Hamilton against Perez in Turkey where Perez leave Hamilton a lot of space but anyway Hamilton pushed Perez out and forced him to cross over the pitlane entrance as he tried to avoid colisioning.
And this manouver was at a much lower speed.

Amereto1 · Nov 17, 2021

LMGiorni said:
Remember the manouver of Hamilton against Perez in Turkey where Perez leave Hamilton a lot of space but anyway Hamilton pushed Perez out and forced him to cross over the pitlane entrance as he tried to avoid colisioning.
And this manouver was at a much lower speed.

But Hamilton's car didn't leave the boundaries of the track to complete the move.

LMGiorni · Nov 17, 2021

Amereto1 said:
But Hamilton's car didn't leave the boundaries of the track to complete the move.

Yeah, thats the point. In Brazil you can argue there was so much speed involved in forncing the pass on the last sector almost starting the turn that you can expect that this kind of extended trajectory would be a normal thing because Hamilton was forcing Max to start turning very close to the apex (Hamilton seemed to try to take the apex).
In the case of Turkey the case was that there was no excuse not to leave space for Perez as Perez never forced his car into Hamilton´s and left a lot of space inbetween but that was not the case from Hamlilton to Perez. And also the amount of speed in this sector doesnt justify to go so wide, it was intentional to leave Perez no room to recover.

CMGARAGE · Nov 17, 2021

Richard Wilks said:
I dont remember Max hitting Hamilton and cause him to spin, ruining his race in Interlagos...

That's because HAM took avoiding action to avoid hitting Max this weekend. The only car he had to do it with too, to my knowledge. In what, 25 overtakes? What's the suggestion, that HAM should have just stuck to his line because he was making the corner, let Max (who wasn't) pile into him and then hope, if his car survives, they'll whack a punitive 5 seconds on to Max? Great end to the season, that. The rules aren't there for the sake of great TV first and foremost though, and Max knows he's got so much less to lose than Lewis so he's happy to push and sometimes exceed the limits.

The 'let them race' attitude as it's being applied isn't sustainable the way the sport is. We'll have another Silverstone or Monza, someone will end up getting hurt and then you watch the regs flip back the other way and shaft one competitor over the other; you'll just have to pray it isn't your favourite. For as much as people are quick to point out how black and white the technical side needs applying there's an awful lot of mental gymnastics when it comes to the sporting side. I appreciate it is more of a grey area but it's no longer grey when, like in this instance, your man can't even make the corner alone, never mind side by side. Thats not racing. It wasn't a one off either, when you take into account the weaving. He was overdriving the car by that point.

You'll also recall that HAM was originally on the podium for the race with Albon because he finished there on track. That was of course amended once the penalty was applied but the reason he was allowed to stand on the podium knowing likely he'd get demoted was the fact it was under investigation.

We didn't get that luxury on Sunday, funny enough. An investigation would of prompted them to actually look at the telemetry or wait for the onboards where it'd show he'd probably outbraked himself. We should get that now that the formal appeal has been lodged.

And to further my point of why I think using the Albon incidents seems a bit of a naive counterpoint; you seem to think the outcome of an incident is indicative of the punishment. HAM wasn't given either penalty for ruining Albon's race. 5 secs is nothing for robbing someone of a podium. He would of been judged to have caused a collision which carries the 5 secs, where Albon ends up isn't meant to be considered. That's consistent across both incidents. It's been this way for a while so i'm surprised a bloke with your interest in racing and it's history seems to be missing/ignoring the fact. Max lost at least 17 points in the Silverstone incident, for example, as a result of a DNF; Hamilton, as you know, wasn't docked 17-25 points for the incident he was given 10 secs for what was being deemed to be the cause of an accident judged to be a racing incident.

OK, but unlike Albon, Max and HAM didn't connect, right? Even ignoring my opening point that's due to HAM taking evasives, it's not like there isn't precedent for action being taken for running a rival off the road, to the tune of a 5 second penalty. I'm thinking stuff like at the same corner of your Red Bull Albon corner. Perez gets squeezed at the same corner by Norris (IIRC) and takes some gravel edging out to avoid Norris' elbows. He survives but loses out to Norris (maybe others?). Red 'Let them Race' Bull get on the blower; 5 sec penalty for Norris. Perez then later ends up doing the same thing to another driver same corner and to Leclerc (?) a few corners down the road. Perez ends up with 2 5 sec penalties. Red Bull literally help set the precedent for 5 sec penalties for forcing an opponent off the track with stuff like that. The lasting adavntage stuff was being enforced as recently as COTA, AFAIK.

Mr. Malarkey said:
I'm no expert, but it looks to me like VER intended to outbrake HAM and then close the door on him, and was just a little too late and couldn't make the corner. Dumb move? Maybe. But it could be argued that HAM trying to pass on the outside there, at the very last second, was also overly aggressive and ill-advised. I can hardly blame VER for trying everything possible to keep HAM behind him. Was he intentionally running HAM off the track? Not in my opinion. And apparently the stewards agreed. As did HAM. The only one pissing and moaning about it is Wolff.

The problem is, HAM and Merc were penalized for violating a rule that is very black-and-white. The DRS flaps MUST be a certain size. Merc's was too big, and they got penalized accordingly (just as Vettel did earlier in the season for the amount of fuel he had left). I know Wolff is saying they should have been allowed to fix it, but they had already driven qualifying with an illegal wing - that bell couldn't be un-rung. They had to be disqualified. If the stewards start bending rules like these here and there, where does it end?

What VER did, while probably a desperate move that only delayed the inevitable, isn't a black-and-white issue. The stewards have discretion, and they exercised that discretion. No one was hurt. The cars continued on with neither car gaining a lasting advantage. So no penalty. In my opinion, that was the right decision.

Wolff and Horner both need to quit their crybaby antics and focus on beating the competition on the track, instead of whining to the stewards (and the cameras) in hopes of gaining advantages. Let the drivers race.

I, nor anyone else here are experts either but I'd pull you up on your assessment there. I agree, I don't think Max intentionally takes a swipe at HAM from the onboard but he clearly misses the corner. HAM is clearly alongside and ahead by a big percentage into the start of the braking phase so I disagree it was 'overly aggressive and ill-advised'. He wasn't the one (in this instance!) understeering into the path of his rival. There could be multiple reasons why that could happen e.g sudden change in grip due to temps, tyre wear, wind direction etc but it could very well be likely that faced with a faster car having virtually already passed you; you revert to last of the late brakers, or turn in a little less, or roll the brakes off. Whatever his intention (your reasoning hardly sounds too out there i.e late brakes then elbows out on exit) he couldn't execute the move without sending them both well wide. There was no damage (or firm contact) but HAM was sent that far off track with the resultant debris pickup I'd thought he'd picked up a puncture as he was clearly struggling for traction and importantly he was only out there in the first place to avoid contact from Max who was understeering. Had Max not tried to get him on the brakes HAM would of had the overlap and, at the very least, a right to the outside of the corner (within track limits!) and was on to make it. The arguement , I assume, will be Max gained a lasting advantage. The fact he then continued and got a Standards Flag probably doesn't help his case that it was a genuine mistake.

I appreciate there are certainly grey areas in these decisions. For example, in football, a handball decision should be black and white; any deliberate attempt to deny a goal scoring oppurtunity in the box should be a penalty. Now sure me a hundred handball decisions that look the same and I'll show you them given and not given. The word deliberate, while clear in text, is a bugger to interpret on the field.
While you can't evaporate all the grey I don't see why it is not black and white enough to expect if two world class drivers go side by side into a corner and both come out wide that doesn't at least warrant an investigation as why that happened.

The irony is by failing to actually formally investigate during the race they opened up grounds to appeal by Merc as, despite claims they'd seen all the angles, I don't believe the stewards had access to the recently released Max onboard and as the incident was noted but not investigated, the telemetry data was not requested/looked at which means Merc has new and compelling evidence to present. The appeals process seems quite black and white to me

Mr. Malarkey said:
If you can't beat them on the track or in the garage, beat them in Race Control, I guess.

I'm not sure if you watched the 2021 Sao Paulo Grand Prix but I'd recommend watching it

I wouldn't want to spoil it because it's a good'un but I'm pretty sure Merc and HAM beat Red Bull and Max both on track and in the garage.

LeSunTzu said:
RedBull did the same at Silverstone with even less in their file. They did it to put pressure on Hamilton and the stewards, not because they expected anything concrete out of it. Same for Mercedes.

Toto to Russell: "George, did you get my emails?! I need you on the Sim, nowh!"

Do you think George would've of been up for streaming it?

PickABetterUsername01 said:
More steering angle doesn't mean more turn in.

Sure, and if the onboard showed Max making the corner somehow with his wheel at the 12'o clock like some low budget rfactor model then more power to him, but he didn't make the corner. What it does do is show that he hasn't turned into him with any seeming intent. Now it's been appealed the relevent parties will get a deeper dive into all the angles, previous lap data/angles for comparison and telemetry data. Max and RB should have nothing to worry about.

Amereto1 · Nov 17, 2021

LMGiorni said:
Yeah, thats the point. In Brazil you can argue there was so much speed involved in forncing the pass on the last sector almost starting the turn that you can expect that this kind of extended trajectory would be a normal thing because Hamilton was forcing Max to start turning very close to the apex (Hamilton seemed to try to take the apex).
In the case of Turkey the case was that there was no excuse not to leave space for Perez as Perez never forced his car into Hamilton´s and left a lot of space inbetween but that was not the case from Hamlilton to Perez. And also the amount of speed in this sector doesnt justify to go so wide, it was intentional to leave Perez no room to recover.

If Max would have kept his car on track the opinion would have been a VERY aggressive move, understandable because of where we are in the championship, but perfectly legal, and Redbull would have just said Lewis knew he was going to run out of track and should have just braked.
Going round the outside is always a risky move and the driver will always run out of track unless the car is along side enough to warrant being left a cars width.
According to the rules, Mercedes do not have to prove if Max steered into Hamilton or not, they just have to prove Max did not do everything within his capabilities to make the corner and forced Lewis off the track, personally I think that mid corner throttle application is going to get him a penalty.

FIA Formula One World Championship Sporting Regulations cover overtaking under "incidents":
Incident means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which:
- caused an avoidable collision;
- forced a driver off the track;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.
The stewards may impose a 10 second time penalty on any driver involved in an Incident.

Appie Kuipers · Nov 17, 2021

Is this all about racing, or is about rules rules rules, sick sport F1, straight line overtaking with drs, is that racing, or is just mechanical

And for those who are a bit blind, You may defend your position, Max was on the inside a bit in front, The driver who wants to overtake on the outside is seeking for trouble, They bought had overspeed, even Ham the most.

Amereto1 · Nov 17, 2021

Appie Kuipers said:
And for those who are a bit blind, You may defend your position, Max was on the inside a bit in front,

Deleted member 379375 · Nov 17, 2021

Max clearly stopped turning left , no surprise as we all know he is a dirty driver, hopefully they will have another look at this.

I come across drivers like this online often enough, when they are trying to pass me we go wheel to wheel for a corner or two. When you try to pass them they just run you off the road. Wheel to wheel does not exists when trying to pass them.

LeSunTzu · Nov 17, 2021

@Amereto1 - That's obviously some biased British TV footage.

Snailer · Nov 17, 2021

Paul Glover said:
See comments like this surprise me, if you take both Max and Lewis they both out perform their team mate each race. If the Red Bull or Mercedes was that powerful surely you'd see both drivers smashing it?

Also, it wasn't that long ago where the Red Bull looked to be the faster car. People do have short memories.

I'm loving the up and down nature of this season, best for a while.

I think your argument is only valid under the assumption that the cars of both drivers in any given team are identical, which I think is the wrong assumption to make. After all, we've seen time and time again where two cars of the same team were running entirely different parts. In this case in particular, we know that Hamilton had something done to his engine (hence the 5-place penalty at the start), while Bottas did not. So I think it would not be too far-fetched to say he had a few extra horses under the hood, especially if, like others have said, the engine doesn't need to last as long so can be tuned up a bit.

Paul Glover · Nov 17, 2021

Appie Kuipers said:
Is this all about racing, or is about rules rules rules, sick sport F1, straight line overtaking with drs, is that racing, or is just mechanical
And for those who are a bit blind, You may defend your position, Max was on the inside a bit in front, The driver who wants to overtake on the outside is seeking for trouble, They bought had overspeed, even Ham the most.

1. Rules are there for a reason, competition needs to be fair
2. DRS is artificial, I agree with you there. Hope the changes to the cars for next season make a difference
3. Racing has always been partly mechanical, whether is grippy tires or wings on the cars.
4. Max clearly went to deep into the corner, yes an overtake on the outside is more difficult but it's not impossible.

and finally

Can we please avoid calling others blind and refrain from insults of any kind please, remain respectful at all times. If you can't, then please stop posting.

muzikant · Nov 17, 2021


the discussion gets a bit pathetic and endlessly fed by the british F1 press...they all seem to be targeting Max as usual. Where have we seen that before? Alonso Schumacher on to the next race

Richard Wilks · Nov 17, 2021

CMGARAGE said:
That's because HAM took avoiding action to avoid hitting Max this weekend. The only car he had to do it with too, to my knowledge. In what, 25 overtakes? What's the suggestion, that HAM should have just stuck to his line because he was making the corner, let Max (who wasn't) pile into him and then hope, if his car survives, they'll whack a punitive 5 seconds on to Max? Great end to the season, that. The rules aren't there for the sake of great TV first and foremost though, and Max knows he's got so much less to lose than Lewis so he's happy to push and sometimes exceed the limits.

The 'let them race' attitude as it's being applied isn't sustainable the way the sport is. We'll have another Silverstone or Monza, someone will end up getting hurt and then you watch the regs flip back the other way and shaft one competitor over the other; you'll just have to pray it isn't your favourite. For as much as people are quick to point out how black and white the technical side needs applying there's an awful lot of mental gymnastics when it comes to the sporting side. I appreciate it is more of a grey area but it's no longer grey when, like in this instance, your man can't even make the corner alone, never mind side by side. Thats not racing. It wasn't a one off either, when you take into account the weaving. He was overdriving the car by that point.

You'll also recall that HAM was originally on the podium for the race with Albon because he finished there on track. That was of course amended once the penalty was applied but the reason he was allowed to stand on the podium knowing likely he'd get demoted was the fact it was under investigation.

We didn't get that luxury on Sunday, funny enough. An investigation would of prompted them to actually look at the telemetry or wait for the onboards where it'd show he'd probably outbraked himself. We should get that now that the formal appeal has been lodged.

And to further my point of why I think using the Albon incidents seems a bit of a naive counterpoint; you seem to think the outcome of an incident is indicative of the punishment. HAM wasn't given either penalty for ruining Albon's race. 5 secs is nothing for robbing someone of a podium. He would of been judged to have caused a collision which carries the 5 secs, where Albon ends up isn't meant to be considered. That's consistent across both incidents. It's been this way for a while so i'm surprised a bloke with your interest in racing and it's history seems to be missing/ignoring the fact. Max lost at least 17 points in the Silverstone incident, for example, as a result of a DNF; Hamilton, as you know, wasn't docked 17-25 points for the incident he was given 10 secs for what was being deemed to be the cause of an accident judged to be a racing incident.

OK, but unlike Albon, Max and HAM didn't connect, right? Even ignoring my opening point that's due to HAM taking evasives, it's not like there isn't precedent for action being taken for running a rival off the road, to the tune of a 5 second penalty. I'm thinking stuff like at the same corner of your Red Bull Albon corner. Perez gets squeezed at the same corner by Norris (IIRC) and takes some gravel edging out to avoid Norris' elbows. He survives but loses out to Norris (maybe others?). Red 'Let them Race' Bull get on the blower; 5 sec penalty for Norris. Perez then later ends up doing the same thing to another driver same corner and to Leclerc (?) a few corners down the road. Perez ends up with 2 5 sec penalties. Red Bull literally help set the precedent for 5 sec penalties for forcing an opponent off the track with stuff like that. The lasting adavntage stuff was being enforced as recently as COTA, AFAIK.

I, nor anyone else here are experts either but I'd pull you up on your assessment there. I agree, I don't think Max intentionally takes a swipe at HAM from the onboard but he clearly misses the corner. HAM is clearly alongside and ahead by a big percentage into the start of the braking phase so I disagree it was 'overly aggressive and ill-advised'. He wasn't the one (in this instance!) understeering into the path of his rival. There could be multiple reasons why that could happen e.g sudden change in grip due to temps, tyre wear, wind direction etc but it could very well be likely that faced with a faster car having virtually already passed you; you revert to last of the late brakers, or turn in a little less, or roll the brakes off. Whatever his intention (your reasoning hardly sounds too out there i.e late brakes then elbows out on exit) he couldn't execute the move without sending them both well wide. There was no damage (or firm contact) but HAM was sent that far off track with the resultant debris pickup I'd thought he'd picked up a puncture as he was clearly struggling for traction and importantly he was only out there in the first place to avoid contact from Max who was understeering. Had Max not tried to get him on the brakes HAM would of had the overlap and, at the very least, a right to the outside of the corner (within track limits!) and was on to make it. The arguement , I assume, will be Max gained a lasting advantage. The fact he then continued and got a Standards Flag probably doesn't help his case that it was a genuine mistake.

I appreciate there are certainly grey areas in these decisions. For example, in football, a handball decision should be black and white; any deliberate attempt to deny a goal scoring oppurtunity in the box should be a penalty. Now sure me a hundred handball decisions that look the same and I'll show you them given and not given. The word deliberate, while clear in text, is a bugger to interpret on the field.
While you can't evaporate all the grey I don't see why it is not black and white enough to expect if two world class drivers go side by side into a corner and both come out wide that doesn't at least warrant an investigation as why that happened.

The irony is by failing to actually formally investigate during the race they opened up grounds to appeal by Merc as, despite claims they'd seen all the angles, I don't believe the stewards had access to the recently released Max onboard and as the incident was noted but not investigated, the telemetry data was not requested/looked at which means Merc has new and compelling evidence to present. The appeals process seems quite black and white to me

I'm not sure if you watched the 2021 Sao Paulo Grand Prix but I'd recommend watching it I wouldn't want to spoil it because it's a good'un but I'm pretty sure Merc and HAM beat Red Bull and Max both on track and in the garage.

Toto to Russell: "George, did you get my emails?! I need you on the Sim, nowh!"

Do you think George would've of been up for streaming it?

Sure, and if the onboard showed Max making the corner somehow with his wheel at the 12'o clock like some low budget rfactor model then more power to him, but he didn't make the corner. What it does do is show that he hasn't turned into him with any seeming intent. Now it's been appealed the relevent parties will get a deeper dive into all the angles, previous lap data/angles for comparison and telemetry data. Max and RB should have nothing to worry about.

Well first of all Max is not my man. I just happen to comment more on his side,because i believe he is being unfairly targeted lately.

Second, i did not forget the asinine reasoning that "outcome doesn't matter", that the FIA used to justify giving that puny penalty to Hamilton. But remember that the "let them race" was brought up also because social media and the press were up in arms with the penalties at Austria, and wanted them to "just race". Well now we are racing right?...

As for the incident itself, many people, you included, are working under the assumption that Hamilton would have made the corner if Max didnt "divebomb". Well i am not so sure about that. And i believe nor were the stewards.

markg88 · Nov 17, 2021

Is anyone like me about Wolff.. Can't bear to look at or listen to him... he seems to have lost the plot.
I can understand a parent going to any lengths to protect and look after a child, but to see this approach in his relationship with Hamilton is just weird.

Paul Glover · Nov 17, 2021

Richard Wilks said:
As for the incident itself, many people, you included, are working under the assumption that Hamilton would have made the corner if Max didnt "divebomb". Well i am not so sure about that. And i believe nor were the stewards.

This is a fair point, I am surprised that Mercedes have asked for a review.

Appie Kuipers · Nov 17, 2021

muzikant said:
the discussion gets a bit pathetic and endlessly fed by the british F1 press...they all seem to be targeting Max as usual. Where have we seen that before? Alonso Schumacher

on to the next race

After the Brexit they even may not join a discussion

Excuse for the word blind, the Dutch have Orange glasses and see thing better.

Paul Glover · Nov 17, 2021

markg88 said:
Is anyone like me about Wolff.. Can't bear to look at or listen to him... he seems to have lost the plot.
I can understand a parent going to any lengths to protect and look after a child, but to see this approach in his relationship with Hamilton is just weird.

Same can be said about Horner earlier in the season after Silverstone, the levels these guys go too is rather embarrassing at times. All as bad as each other.

But then again, would they come out and not back their own driver? Probably not. Take it with a pinch of salt.

2021 Formula One Sao Paulo Grand Prix

Who will lead the constructor's championship after Brazil?

Mercedes

Red Bull

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If you can't beat them on the track or in the garage, beat them in Race Control, I guess.​

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If you can't beat them on the track or in the garage, beat them in Race Control, I guess.