United States & Canada

[Niklas Vesterinen]

This is in response to some of the posts in this thread:

http://forum.racedepartment.com/us-racedepartment-com/11424-north-american-league-gauging-interest.html

I wanted to respond to this quote here:



Ah good, we're getting to some agreement It IS about having fun and close racing usually makes that happen. Whether or not a weight penalty is the right way, I'm not sure but here's some observations. If you were to invoke a drive-through, then you'd be fighting with some of the slower guys. If you had a weight penalty, you'd be fighting with some of the fastest guys whom you probably know what their braking points and racing lines are - almost a better idea IMO? I've noticed that when I'm making my way through the field from the back that many drivers are very inconsistent and I end up love tapping them because they surprised me with either the braking point, or the racing line - oops!

So, here's a new question: would you rather race in tight quarters with the lead pack or the back pack? I would guess that if you were to get a drivethrough, that you'd end up mid-pack to the rear-end somewhere and you'd have one hell of a time getting back up to the leaders again?

Again, great discussion and I hope we can all find a common solution. You "aliens" are just too fast LOL.

I absolutly see your point however with drivethrough penalties i still think i would be racing against the faster cars since i would probably clear to not so fast guys pretty fast ... Obviously caution is needed at that stage but the race finish would still be a battle with the "best of the rest" i think. But you are right that tight racing is the most fun! But adding weights to the car most certainly is not. (especially cars like F3000 or FBMW) Handling gets screwed up and i end up with much less car control which is most important when in a tight battle. Weight penalties just kills the racing spirit in me and most others that i know of.

I just thought of something else. One more option could be to not allow us to change tyres during the race but still force a pitstop and/or drivethrough. We would be faster in the beginning of the race but later we chased down and having to defend our position with totally worn tyres. That could be an alternative so that the not so fast can have a chanse of going on the offense for a possible late race overtake manovour to take the win?

 

[Mitchell Phillipi]

I absolutly see your point however with drivethrough penalties i still think i would be racing against the faster cars since i would probably clear to not so fast guys pretty fast ... Obviously caution is needed at that stage but the race finish would still be a battle with the "best of the rest" i think. But you are right that tight racing is the most fun! But adding weights to the car most certainly is not. (especially cars like F3000 or FBMW) Handling gets screwed up and i end up with much less car control which is most important when in a tight battle. Weight penalties just kills the racing spirit in me and most others that i know of.

I just thought of something else. One more option could be to not allow us to change tyres during the race but still force a pitstop and/or drivethrough. We would be faster in the beginning of the race but later we chased down and having to defend our position with totally worn tyres. That could be an alternative so that the not so fast can have a chanse of going on the offense for a possible late race overtake manovour to take the win?

How about we say no weight penalties with F3000, FBMW, or F1 cars? We could then do as you suggest and try the no tire change option for endurance races? What about the sprint races though where tire changes aren't necessary?

Also, I think the WTCC cars are more friendly to weight right? Would that still be an option?

 

[Ian Landry]

The main problem with the weight penalty, is the fact that you can't force it in practice, and therefore can't make a set-up for it, right?

How about mandatory added fuel? For sprint races at least it should work (giving the same effect as a weight penalty), plus you can set-up the car for it. Sure, it would work only based on the members good faith, but isn't that what the racing club is all about?

Just brainstorming here...

Ian

 

[Eric. K]

I just thought of something else. One more option could be to not allow us to change tyres during the race but still force a pitstop and/or drivethrough. We would be faster in the beginning of the race but later we chased down and having to defend our position with totally worn tyres. That could be an alternative so that the not so fast can have a chanse of going on the offense for a possible late race overtake manovour to take the win?

Very interesting idea that might work as well in a endurance race. I would like to hear what Yves, Keith and Marcel (etc...) think about that?

 

[Ian Landry]

One more option could be to not allow us to change tyres during the race but still force a pitstop and/or drivethrough. We would be faster in the beginning of the race but later we chased down and having to defend our position with totally worn tyres. That could be an alternative so that the not so fast can have a chanse of going on the offense for a possible late race overtake manovour to take the win?

I like it...

 

[Eric. K]

The main problem with the weight penalty, is the fact that you can't force it in practice, and therefore can't make a set-up for it, right?

How about mandatory added fuel? For sprint races at least it should work (giving the same effect as a weight penalty), plus you can set-up the car for it. Sure, it would work only based on the members good faith, but isn't that what the racing club is all about?

Just brainstorming here...

Ian

Or do it like in MotoGP and allocate a fix amount of fuel that one can use on a track. The fast guys might need to slow down (short shift more often, take the revs down, etc...) to not run out of fuel.

Again, just an idea.

 

[Niklas Vesterinen]

How about we say no weight penalties with F3000, FBMW, or F1 cars?

By far the best option with regards to all openwheel cars imo...

We could then do as you suggest and try the no tire change option for endurance races?

Yes, to find the best compromise with "no tyre change" "Forced drivethrough" and "grid penalties"

What about the sprint races though where tire changes aren't necessary?

Hmm, i'm not sure but maybe grid penalties would be sufficient here? Also one could force the faster ones to start with much more fuel. I think atleast that "the leauge" when it starts will be endurance.

Also, I think the WTCC cars are more friendly to weight right? Would that still be an option?

Yes they definetly are alot more weight friendly but you would need to ask someone with more WTCC car experience what they think.

 

[Mitchell Phillipi]

This is interesting that the practice won't allow the option of a weight penalty. This is unacceptable and I'm against this as well.

Speaking of setups...Niklas, I'd be very interested to know how much the F3000 cars are sensitive to setup? For example, I shaved 1.5secs off my time with a setup from a friend and I'm very curious to know what I could turn with an uber setup like yours? If you would allow it, and I completely understand if you're against this, but I'd love to have your setup just to see what I could do on Barcelona?

I'm going to miss this while I'm gone in Mexico for 10 days...well maybe not, I might be too faded LOL.

 

[Niklas Vesterinen]

The main problem with the weight penalty, is the fact that you can't force it in practice, and therefore can't make a set-up for it, right?

How about mandatory added fuel? For sprint races at least it should work (giving the same effect as a weight penalty), plus you can set-up the car for it. Sure, it would work only based on the members good faith, but isn't that what the racing club is all about?

Just brainstorming here...

Ian

Yes that would work perfectly for sprint.

 

[Niklas Vesterinen]

This is interesting that the practice won't allow the option of a weight penalty. This is unacceptable and I'm against this as well.

Speaking of setups...Niklas, I'd be very interested to know how much the F3000 cars are sensitive to setup? For example, I shaved 1.5secs off my time with a setup from a friend and I'm very curious to know what I could turn with an uber setup like yours? If you would allow it, and I completely understand if you're against this, but I'd love to have your setup just to see what I could do on Barcelona?

I'm going to miss this while I'm gone in Mexico for 10 days...well maybe not, I might be too faded LOL.

To be honest i ran Barcelona with almost default setup, only some minor changes but i would be happy to send it to you for try if you still want. I can say the the FBMW are very sensitive to setup and you can definetly save several seconds a lap with a good one. Barcelona was the first time i ever raced the F3000 and i didn't have time to try and set it up properly but from what little i experimented i could tell a significant difference so i would say that the F3000 also is very sensetive to setup. Probably same as FBMW...

In NGP i have only shared my setups with my team mates but usually they can't drive with that and have to make thier own ... And likewise i find it nearly impossible to drive with thiers so it's very personal and you can never get a setup as good as making one yourself that suits your driving style perfectly. IF i'm in a serious leauge racing with drivers of equal speed then i would not be that happy about sharing my setup with other then team mates. (if they want it lol) In this case the competition is a part of the fun and winning against equal drivers is amazing and beeing able to make your own setup is a part of that and a part of winning. However after the race if they still want to they can have it .

I don't really have a "base setup" that some people seem to have. I just make a new one to fit the track that i will be racing at next. Also i only first started to drive sims in september and i have only raced in 5 races total (4 of them NGP). The only car i know how to race and setup properly is the FBMW but i would really like to start with a new challenge (F3000) when NGP is over.

 

[Ross Balfour]

Ohh weight penalties!!!

/Throws some iron into the front of Team Finlands NGP car

Seriously, no, the best driver should be equal to his other dirvers or else it isnt fair. I dont like them.

 

[Yves Larose]

Very interesting idea that might work as well in a endurance race. I would like to hear what Yves, Keith and Marcel (etc...) think about that?

Well making the fastest guy not changing tyres during an enduro race can go either way, the startegy would be more important and can be easely play in their favor more then anything, exemple, if i'm 1 sec faster then the other with the same amount of fuel of them i'll gain like 15 sec in 15 laps add to that a short pitstop since i don't have to change tyres, take approx. 20 sec so it would make me 5 sec behind, then the slower guy make their pitstop over 30 sec so it put me in the lead with over 25 sec, now knowing this i would start the race with less fuel making me faster and gain more time over the slower guy's so after their pitstop i would be even futher in front so imo not changing the tyres for the faster guy's won't have the wanted effect on the race.

as for the drive thru after thinking about it, it might not be a good solution in an enduro race as again the faster guy's can adapt their strategy to compensate for the drive thru. and i see a problem with the drive thru, you can't really do a drive thru if its not coming from a black flag, it would be like doing a pitstop and if the person use preset pitstop well it become a regular pitstop which is more then a drive thru.

as for the grid penality imo its looking for more trouble and incident as the fastest guy's might become impatient and hit the slower guy's.

imo all the cars in the game are sensative to weight changes, when i tried it it was with the WTCC and i don't find them friendly at all to weight change.

i would like to add something, this discussion is for a league therefor points and personnaly for me league mean serious racing, the fun factor is not what i'm looking for in a league, i wanna win its real competition for me. giving any sort of penality in a league for me as for Niklas it goes against racing spirit which is may be faster guy win and all the car in the same class have the same chance of winning its all come to the driver and his setup.

 

[Eric. K]

i would like to add something, this discussion is for a league therefor points and personnaly for me league mean serious racing, the fun factor is not what i'm looking for in a league, i wanna win its real competition for me.

Yves, I dont take that argument. A league is still supposed to be fun. Why would you race if it wasn't fun? The league just adds an addition element to the fun factor, but it shouldnt take anything away from it. None of us is here to make any money, but only b/c it is fun!! Once it stops being fun I'll go play Worlds of Worldcraft or read a book

giving any sort of penality in a league for me as for Niklas it goes against racing spirit which is may be faster guy win and all the car in the same class have the same chance of winning its all come to the driver and his setup.

Again, can only disagree with that statement. There are plenty of professional leagues that use some kind of weight penalities (WTCC, BTCC, JGTC to name only a few) to keep the racing fun for the spectators. Obviously the organizers didn't think that went against the "racing spirit".

Finally, every single national or international racing series has some rules to keep the field leveled. F1 has rules up to wazzu preventing teams with more $$$ to develop better cars. MotoGP has a gas restriction per track for the same reason, everyone is adapting the unique tyre rules to remove any advantage, etc.. etc.. etc.. Of course in our case we don't develop new cars, engines, tyres, the only differentiation is the human factor. So, the question still remains. How can we narrow the field and make it more fun for everyone?? If I were an alien I would get bored really quickly winning week after week and would probably do something else. That's why this discussion should be an opportunity for the very fast guys and slow ones to make the racing more FUN!! I don't know if weight penalties are the solution, but I heard a few other suggestions that we should not dismiss too quickly.

 

[Ian Landry]

A league is still supposed to be fun. Why would you race if it wasn't fun? The league just adds an addition element to the fun factor, but it shouldnt take anything away from it. None of us is here to make any money, but only b/c it is fun!! Once it stops being fun I'll go play Worlds of Worldcraft or read a book

I don't know if weight penalties are the solution, but I heard a few other suggestions that we should not dismiss too quickly.

Exactly. However, I can see from the beginning of this discussion that weight penalties are something that certain drivers feel strongly against. We already have a small community in the N-A timezone, I wouldn't want to do anything that would deter members from participating.

One thing that I see also that is particular to our situation are the two groups (fast and slow) amongst the regulars. The fast guys are competitive with each other, as are the slow guys (Mitchell is sorta in between as I can see:laugh2, so I understand that, say, Yves doesn't want a penalty to race against Keith. I am not sure we will find a magic rule that will bridge the 2-3 seconds gap that seperates the two packs.

In the end the ideal solution would be to have full grids, and we wouldn't really be discussing this if we had, I'm quite sure.

In the meantime, perhaps we need to find ways for the fast guys to help the slow guys get better... a sort of teaching or mentoring, in a way. I have a few ideas on that, which I can share when I have more time to type.

Have a good evening all!

Ian

 

[Warren Dawes]

One thing that I see also that is particular to our situation are the two groups (fast and slow) amongst the regulars. The fast guys are competitive with each other, as are the slow guys (Mitchell is sorta in between as I can see:laugh2, so I understand that, say, Yves doesn't want a penalty to race against Keith. I am not sure we will find a magic rule that will bridge the 2-3 seconds gap that seperates the two packs.

If all the fast guys were on the same weight penalty and the slower guys didn't have a penalty, wouldn't that achieve that end goal?? Maybe still not equalise everyone but at least give the slower guys some chance to get closer.

In the end the ideal solution would be to have full grids, and we wouldn't really be discussing this if we had, I'm quite sure.

Ian, I thought the weight suggestion was aimed at trying to promote larger grids by encouraging slower guys to join. So far the only regulars you seem to have are nearly all fast guys, and I suspect that won't change much if the slower guys join and find themselves running lonely races at the back.

 

[Ian Landry]

If all the fast guys were on the same weight penalty and the slower guys didn't have a penalty, wouldn't that achieve that end goal?? Maybe still not equalise everyone but at least give the slower guys some chance to get closer.


Ian, I thought the weight suggestion was aimed at trying to promote larger grids by encouraging slower guys to join. So far the only regulars you seem to have are nearly all fast guys, and I suspect that won't change much if the slower guys join and find themselves running lonely races at the back.

Hey don't get me wrong, I'm for the weight penalty myself, Warren (I'm definately on the slow side), but I don't want it to become something that will create unhappiness within the already small community, that's all!

I didn't know you could assign the same weight penalty to many players. Interesting.

Ian

 

[Warren Dawes]

Hey don't get me wrong,

Sorry Ian, I may have mislead you, I was actually trying to add some support to your comments and show how the weights could be used to overcome the concerns you mentioned.
I got the impression that many people have taken an exaggerated view point point and not really thought about how to subtly use this option. Any driver can be given very small weight penalties or larger ones up to a maximum, so with a bit of fiddling the gaps between players could be reduced without huge impacts, and if faster drivers wanted to maintain equal status with each other, then the weight penalties can be equalised for them. The options are endless and can be small and subtle if people wanted, but so far most people are thinking only in extremes which would probably never be considered.


In the end though, the community needs to decide what (if anything) they want to do. Personally, I can see some advantages and potential to use it to help get a more balanced and larger grid, without major crippling of the faster guys, and would like to see it tested in a few non serious Racing Club events, but it is not up to me. I'll leave it to the USA Community.

 

[William Yunck]

The real WTCC has weight penalties, if you want to pracitice with more weight put more fuel in the tank. there would be a cap on the weight, i am sure it wouldn't be that much, and the club racing is about fun, not winning. Join a league if you want to make a name for yourself. The club is to get people into sim racing and to make friends, not to come from the back and be a hero. IMO

 

[Niklas Vesterinen]

Well making the fastest guy not changing tyres during an enduro race can go either way, the startegy would be more important and can be easely play in their favor more then anything, exemple, if i'm 1 sec faster then the other with the same amount of fuel of them i'll gain like 15 sec in 15 laps add to that a short pitstop since i don't have to change tyres, take approx. 20 sec so it would make me 5 sec behind, then the slower guy make their pitstop over 30 sec so it put me in the lead with over 25 sec, now knowing this i would start the race with less fuel making me faster and gain more time over the slower guy's so after their pitstop i would be even futher in front so imo not changing the tyres for the faster guy's won't have the wanted effect on the race.

as for the drive thru after thinking about it, it might not be a good solution in an enduro race as again the faster guy's can adapt their strategy to compensate for the drive thru. and i see a problem with the drive thru, you can't really do a drive thru if its not coming from a black flag, it would be like doing a pitstop and if the person use preset pitstop well it become a regular pitstop which is more then a drive thru.´

I don't really see a problem here. Just use manual pitstop so that computer does not take control of your car and drive right through it with pitspeed. Should not be a problem. We would need to test this out to see if it's "enough" to even the field and if not something else could be added. Maybe stop & go instead of just drive through which should not be a problem either. You can just stop where ever because the other cars can drive right through you so you are not blocking anyone. I am absolutly convinced that it is NOT an advantadge to keep the old tyres in a pitstop because of added pitstop time. The only questions is how much of a disadvantadge it is...

as for the grid penality imo its looking for more trouble and incident as the fastest guy's might become impatient and hit the slower guy's.

This can be a little dangerous but i really expect anyone several seconds faster a lap to be good enough to deal with this without becoming impatient.

i would like to add something, this discussion is for a league therefor points and personnaly for me league mean serious racing, the fun factor is not what i'm looking for in a league, i wanna win its real competition for me. giving any sort of penality in a league for me as for Niklas it goes against racing spirit which is may be faster guy win and all the car in the same class have the same chance of winning its all come to the driver and his setup.

First of all i would like to say that all of my penalty suggestions are only to the thought of a unofficial clubracing series. After that if this would go official like NGP and GT series i seriously doubt that this leauge would have a different view on penalties then them.

If i'm doing a clubrace event i don't care at all and i just want to have fun. If i'm doing a serious series with many fast drivers the competetiveness is a huge part of the FUN and i'm in it to do my best and try to win and hopefuly enjoy some great tough clean and fair racing. In that case everyone should be on equal terms and may the best man win.

 

[Dave Stephenson]

I don't really see a problem here. Just use manual pitstop so that computer does not take control of your car and drive right through it with pitspeed. Should not be a problem. We would need to test this out to see if it's "enough" to even the field and if not something else could be added. Maybe stop & go instead of just drive through which should not be a problem either. You can just stop where ever because the other cars can drive right through you so you are not blocking anyone. I am absolutly convinced that it is NOT an advantadge to keep the old tyres in a pitstop because of added pitstop time. The only questions is how much of a disadvantadge it is...

the most critical part of getting that right and making sure it works would in my eyes be race length. which ideally would not be the same for each track as the impact would vary depending on the layout. im not fast but im consistent and find in enduros i race that the not taking tyres can dramatically improve my finishing position so people who are faster and more skilled will almost certainly find a way to turn the tyres thing around.

This can be a little dangerous but i really expect anyone several seconds faster a lap to be good enough to deal with this without becoming impatient.

this was a nigly thought in the back of my mind, and true enough depends on the gentlemanly conduct of faster drivers which this being a members event should be a given anyway.