RD Le Mans Series Season 6 (rFactor 2)

[Yuri]

There is one problem I have with this . I went to race control. I asked about five times in different ways about whether a time penalty would be added at the end to redshift. I was given assurances by one of them who happened to be a redshift affiliate that a minimum of one minute would be added. I then relayed the info to mark and Dino to say that position wasn't crucial. Even on you tube. .you commented that you were a lap down and race over. So we were mostly of this view and strategy changed according to steward advice. If txl don't win then this amazing series will end as a farce and unfair in my opinion ...which is sad because the spirit of fairness and respect has been the winner until now .

I said that because I went into the race controll and they told me we were going to be a lap down. It's not like we exactly knew what was going on

 

[David O'Reilly]

This is incorrect . One of you said you would look into it . so I asked repeatedly in different ways to pin down a decisive answer. I was told that you knew the gap was at least one minute thirteen or their abouts. Finally a nameless member (he knows and I know for reference ) of the stewards confirmed that a minimum of one minute was sure to be added. I relayed this to my team . If this was wrong from the stewards then why should txl pay? We praised and respected organisation during brake gate (monza) and hump gate (sebring) because you guys did so much effort and did a great job . Issues were unforeseen. However today our drivers did everything in to get the job done based on race control info . I really think it would be decent to give us the championship and focus on the overall success of the series . Otherwise it ends in a farce. Two race wins out of four. .overcome a brake affected race ...do what is needed according to race control and. ..lose championship? How could that be fair ?

Maybe you should have just accepted that they would look into it and tell the team to keep racing. By keeping repeatedly asking for a precise answer in a heat of the moment situation you were possibly putting the admins under intolerable pressure and finally someone told you what you wanted to hear. Now you rest your argument on that.

Were you also highly motivated to ask that the TXL #14 car be penalised its somewhat larger time gap that it had to Car #12?
If so when or where have you asked for this to happen?

 

[David O'Reilly]

The admins have an important job to do.
You can't anticipate all situations when you write rules.
We need to trust that they will consider things in an unemotional and fair way that will stand the test of time.
They wont be able to make everyone happy, so they have to go with what they see as correct.
Each team will have their view of course.

As a team we in LMP1#12 lost almost a lap that we had built up to our main competitor. It was a tough one to deal with but we dealt with it and lined up behind them and raced from the restart to the flag with the expectation that we had to beat them on track.
In real life Safety cars don't give you back gaps of less than 1 lap. They happen often.

The main thing I want to say is that once we have had our say and a decision is made whether it pleases us or not we need to be dignified about it, accept it, leave the admins in peace and enjoy this great season.

 

[James Maskell]

I dont see why everyone is so agitated by this. Wait until everything is sorted out and the adjustments have been made. Their is no point making claims or trying to argue a point now. Publicly complaining or claiming that there is a lack of fairness is childish. If you have something to argue you need to do it professionally not publicly where it can get messy, luckily the people around here are very level headed.

Just like to say thank you to the organisers and all that have been involved in the difficult task of making this happen. The highs and lows were some great experiences and i hope that there is a season of some type of endurance racing in the near future. Thanks to all the other drivers as well, it was good fun battling on track with all of you and i am definitely looking forward to battling on track with you guys in the future.

 

[Yuri]

I agree with David, don't forget they have to decide who wins tne championship and who wins the GTE class, it's not an easy task and we won't all benefit from the decision.
In the end, I don't really care if we won it or not, it's been a great season and the result won't change how much we enjoyed racing.

 

[Kalle Kouri]

First of all thanks to everyone participating this league and congrats to other class winners and also podium positions! Also special thanks to organizers for their hard and dedicated work to make this all possible! It's been pleasure to drive here with you guys.

I also agree we shouldn't use real life as a role model in every situation. This is different kind of environment thus different kind of sport - in some ways at least. However IMHO server crash, timing failure, etc. should be handled like a safety car situation in real life. But of course if the system can't fully provide this kind of functionality (like what probably happened yesterday) then it's best to do how race control handled it. Some of teams will benefit from the situation - some don't - just like in real life and that's part of the racing. Of course it's not fully comparable to real life as fuel strategies, car damage, etc. are reset but that's just something we have to accept and get on with it. If we try to compensate the situation in some way I'm sure it will be a complete mess. It's just too complex to try take into account every aspect hence result will be unfair.

And now that we're talking about what's fair and what's not then I have to mention time penalty given from game crash / connection loss. I really can't understand why drivers are given extra penalties from those situations. First of all they have no part nor lot on those situations, they lose time because of not been able to complete the lap and on top of that they get 7 minutes of extra penalty. Why? Well of course there should be some time penalty so that people wouldn't try to benefit from the situation (by creating fake disconnections / game crashes). My suggestion would be to determine the length of time penalty by how long a full pit stop would take. With current rF2 build it takes about one minute maximum + time difference spent driving through pit road which is track specific. Then you would reduce the amount of time spent in the last uncompleted lap from the time penalty. Now we would be in a situation of not punishing a driver from something which he/she was not guilty of. But still I think there should be little extra time penalty on top to make sure teams are not trying to benefit from it. Maybe 15 seconds for example. And if result of this whole calculation would be negative then that's just bad luck for the team. This would work in current rFactor 2 build because you get repaired car anyway when doing a driver swap so it's not needed to take into account car damage before game crash / disconnect. If that bug would be corrected then system should determine the amount of damage / time required to repair it and add that into time penalty (don't know if it's possible though).

Please take the above as constructive criticism. You know how it is; there's no development when there's satisfaction!

Thanks once again!

 

[Andrew Ford]

Maybe you should have just accepted that they would look into it and tell the team to keep racing. By keeping repeatedly asking for a precise answer in a heat of the moment situation you were possibly putting the admins under intolerable pressure and finally someone told you what you wanted to hear. Now you rest your argument on that.

Were you also highly motivated to ask that the TXL #14 car be penalised its somewhat larger time gap that it had to Car #12?
If so when or where have you asked for this to happen?

still bitter I see.
Anyway ..In response.
Using words like "intolerable" shows your misunderstanding as my rephrasing of the question was only to overcome any potential language barriers. Not all admits have English as a first language so I wanted to check first in case there was a misunderstanding.
I also think it is crucial to know the rules. I've never begun a race and had someone say. ..We'll decide how many laps or tyre compound usage after the race ...have you? So it's not criticising but it's fair to have clarity?
Finally I didn't ask about the gap to our final car. The reason being that I was told that the gaps at last known listing ...would be added. Also ..Our second practice car was In no way a priority for obvious reasons

 

[Daniel Almeida]

I agree with David, don't forget they have to decide who wins tne championship and who wins the GTE class, it's not an easy task and we won't all benefit from the decision.
In the end, I don't really care if we won it or not, it's been a great season and the result won't change how much we enjoyed racing.

As Jonas said, in GTE the situation is clear. If anything, we would gain a position. The issue I have with this discussion is people trying to change after the race what should have been decided before or during the race. I've never seen a league do anything like that before and it baffles me that some guys here are actually serious about it.

Anyway, I'll use this post for something useful now...
@Jonas Steffens : Good race yesterday and congrats on the great team performance! Ihr habt die Sache für uns nicht einfach gemacht

@Anthony Roselli , @Jeremy Bouteloup : Good job and hope to see you guys soon on track again!

 

[David O'Reilly]

Oh I watched the last 45 mins of so. That race for P1 in GTE between Radicals Online in their Viper and Simrace Vereniging in their Aston was just incredible. What a fight!!!!
Great racing gents. Hard fast and clean! In fact Nico and Lewis would benefit from your ability to avoid contact at Les Combes.
@Aaron Gortemulder
@Roy de Muinck
@Jos Friemann (in car at the time)
@Jeremy Bouteloup
@Aj Roselli

 

[Andrew Ford]

I said that because I went into the race controll and they told me we were going to be a lap down. It's not like we exactly knew what was going on

..they told me we were going to be a lap down...

I think that sums it up as we were told similar. I like your nice words about the league yuri. Our guys had fun racing you and you are a gentlemen hope to see you at the next outing

 

[Sebastian Roehn]

And now that we're talking about what's fair and what's not then I have to mention time penalty given from game crash / connection loss. I really can't understand why drivers are given extra penalties from those situations. First of all they have no part nor lot on those situations, they lose time because of not been able to complete the lap and on top of that they get 7 minutes of extra penalty. Why?

That is not correct. The penalty length depends on where you pressed ESC or get DC on track regarding to the timing line. The minimum penalty length is when your race stopped just before the timing line, and maximum directly after the timing line. The reason for this is just simple. The lap you did not completed caused by ESC or DC will be add immediately when you restart your race.

The Rejoin Plugin has 2 adjustable penalty parameter, the minumum penalty time and a time for a lap. It was set here in this race to 5min and 4 min. So the minium penalty was 5min and the 4min will be add percental to the position on track related to the timing line. So worst case is than 9min. But the penalty is not 9min, because you get the lap back which you had not completed. The penalty time 4min can be seen as driving a damaged car around the track into the pits. In Spa that would be an realistic scenario. So with a normal laptime of 2:30,xxx and a DC directly afte the timing line, your real penalty is
5min + 4min - 2:30min = 6:30min

The minimum penalty must be at least the laptime, otherwise would it be an advantage to use ESC and DC. But in fact it must be more, because you also get a complete new car! Since it is not possible to check whether a disconnect was real or done manually by the driver on purpose, you cannot handle those situations in a different way. Compare it to real racing, what it means to drive back with a damage car and than add the time in the garage to repair your car. I would say the rejoin plugin handles this much better for the teams...real racing teams would love it to get such small penalties

What's bad that the function of the rejoin penalty seems to have still a bug. Because the penalty time should start when you left the server and not first when you rejoined, which means the rejoin time is added also to your penalty time. But it should be substracted instead.

 

[Andrew Ford]

Andrew, if you start to argument like this we can stat it as well. We won at Sebring very fair. Had a one minute lose at the first Lap cause of a rf2 Bug. The Admins said us at Lap 2 or 3 that there wouldn't be a penalty. So we finished the race and won it. One week later we get informed that we get a 5 Minute Penalty for that. Wow. Awesome.

So we can argue the same way, won 2 of 4. How could that be fair?

Otherwise would it be a joke to put Redshift now one Lap up cause i cruised more than the whole last Stint cause i knew it wouldn't help if i lap the 2nd car. If the Redshift guys would have been 2nd i would have pushed like hell cause we needed to get one Lap on them....



Hehe thanks, but there would have been a bit more possible but not necessary as said above.

Beside from all of that a Crash like that should be taken as a normal SC in real.

Christian I'm not commenting on sebring too much as that was before this race I would probably feel annoyed about that . You guys raced well. However on this race we raced knowing that p2 would be enough and after the restart we then worked on the basis we had over a minutes advantage. so our driving strategy was changed. Mark did not fight you and let you build a lead. You may have had it anyway but All scenarios would be different. I suppose at sebring I would have asked for an answer aand if the stewards were unsure I would have assumed a time penalty . Here the stewards gave a definite answer

 

[Andrew Ford]

Finally ..just to clarify. .I only posted as we were asked to express our views. I'm not exactly trashing my house I'm rage . I just ask for fairness .

On the whole of think the admins did a fantastic job .I'd like to thank them properly with a longer post when I get a bit more time

 

[Yuri]

As Jonas said, in GTE the situation is clear. If anything, we would gain a position. The issue I have with this discussion is people trying to change after the race what should have been decided before or during the race. I've never seen a league do anything like that before and it baffles me that some guys here are actually serious about it.

Anyway, I'll use this post for something useful now...
@Jonas Steffens : Good race yesterday and congrats on the great team performance! Ihr habt die Sache für uns nicht einfach gemacht

@Anthony Roselli , @Jeremy Bouteloup : Good job and hope to see you guys soon on track again!

The reason we have a discussion here if someone is wondering, in teamspeak the admins said they weren't sure what to do and we should suggest solutions here on the forum. So it's not for trying to change the results for more points or anything.

 

[Pär Öqvist]

As for the rejoin time penalty I think it´s because in practise mode you can´t have the damage state intact so you can total the car and continue racing? I have also read it´s recommended to always reboot the computer after a disco because the server can get confused. If you run 32-bit still god forbid for endurance racing it will increase a chance of it not happening again as well

Otherwise you generally loose at least close to two laps on a 2 minute track and if you have damage you still have to crawl to the pits if you are in the race mode so yes it´s cake on a cake.

Have read discussions where some kind of thought it was an advantage using rejoin and wanting extra penalties. Also in race mode where damage is intact. Hope that is not the reason

 

[Simon Christmann]

Christian I'm not commenting on sebring too much as that was before this race I would probably feel annoyed about that . You guys raced well. However on this race we raced knowing that p2 would be enough and after the restart we then worked on the basis we had over a minutes advantage. so our driving strategy was changed. Mark did not fight you and let you build a lead. You may have had it anyway but All scenarios would be different. I suppose at sebring I would have asked for an answer aand if the stewards were unsure I would have assumed a time penalty . Here the stewards gave a definite answer

In Sebring it was for us also a definite clear answer and we adjusted our strategy to this. We only controlled to race in the last 3 hours instead of pushing all the way. That could have been the time missing to be in 2nd even with the 5min penalty.

 

[Sebastian Roehn]

As for the rejoin time penalty I think it´s because in practise mode you can´t have the damage state intact so you can total the car and continue racing?

That is true. The state of damages can be only restored in a rF2 race session (option can be enabled/disabled). But what I don't know is about red damage restore. What if the engine is broken or wheels are lost...is than the race over?

 

[Simon Christmann]

That is true. The state of damages can be only restored in a rF2 race session (option can be enabled/disabled). But what I don't know is about red damage restore. What if the engine is broken or wheels are lost...is than the race over?

Engine i would suggest yes. Wheel will be added when you make the way back to the pits.

 

[David O'Reilly]

Engine i would suggest yes. Wheel will be added when you make the way back to the pits.

I can reliably inform you that discs are not replaced in the pits (Monza)

 

[Simon Christmann]

I can reliably inform you that discs are not replaced in the pits (Monza)

They had been replaced when they were broken. But sometimes they broke again in the first lap