Have Your Say: Is The Future Electric?

[dhmotor]

The high attendence at F-E events tells a different story.

Not sure which race's attendance you are referring to. Try googling formula E attendance. You will find a lot of articles referencing the expected attendance, but almost nothing about actual attendance. Brooklyn was a total bust, and it was in one of the worlds most populous cities. The main thing this series has going for it is they are putting the races where the people are, but it draws about as well as an open mic night. If you had to travel to see it, you'd pretty much be limited to the families of the team members.

 

[Akra]

What is a recurring theme here is people arguing against electric cars based on an environmental stand point. I mean it's all absolute bollocks, but whatever, we'll go with it just for the sake of discussion and pretend that an electric car is bad for the environment and actually runs off of burning foxes.

You know what nobody EVER comes up with? Is a sustainable energy solution. I don't really care about the environment much. I'm not an eco warrior. I want a V8 Bentley. And I want to make it go very fast and be very loud. I don't really care that much about the fuel I burn. But just because I don't care, doesn't mean I am going to write nonsense about how global warming isn't real and what not. I just don't happen to care.

But what do we do when we don't have any oil and gas? Let's pretend that the environment isn't an issue, because frankly I don't care about it. In 50-100 years when we don't have any more oil, what exactly will we do for energy? Isn't it good now we create a sustainable way of society being able to continue, rather than dive head first into an energy crisis, because we were too fat and happy to get off of our fat lazy arses and actually deal with a problem that will effect our grandchildren?

Isn't that a GOOD thing? Shouldn't we be providing a way of energising the world? No?

I'm not arguing electric racing is fun. Just common sense and an understanding of some very basic scientific and engineering principles.

Edit: Anyone interested in where the "Global Warming is fake" myth came from should look up the Merchants of Doubt. The basic jist of it is a group of scientists hired to try and prove global warming was not real, despite it being real. The same group were also involved in claiming cigarettes do not cause cancer and the claims that there was no problem with the Ozone. The group are responsible for political lobbying to hold back development and dealing with such issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchants_of_Doubt

 

[dhmotor]

But what do we do when we don't have any oil and gas? Let's pretend that the environment isn't an issue, because frankly I don't care about it. In 50-100 years when we don't have any more oil, what exactly will we do for energy? Isn't it good now we create a sustainable way of society being able to continue, rather than dive head first into an energy crisis, because we were too fat and happy to get off of our fat lazy arses and actually deal with a problem that will effect our grandchildren?

The dire predictions for sucking the earth dry of petroleum are overblown. Let's say that at some point it will run out, but the "scientists" who as part of the first earth day predicted that we would be out of fossil fuel by 2000 are looking a little silly. Fuel is now more plentiful and cheap than they could have ever imagined. Someone will become rich off of whatever the eventual energy breakthrough is, but until that time we should continue to develop and refine the current methodology because it is cheap (relatively), highly efficient, and pervasive. It is much more likely that a 100 mpg high performance ICE will be developed and put in cars before a battery powered car and be produced and charged more efficiently. Also, my grandkids don't need my help. Just ask them.

 

[pjlee1998]

I personally love EV's. The moment Formula E was announced in early 2014 (?) I was jumping for joy. Finally something completely different that could involve the ordinary Joe Bloggs in motorsport. The idea of a spec series I knew would create close racing, and I loved the idea of street circuits to bring the racing to the people. The first season didn't disappoint, lots of great racing and a down to the wire championship.

I was and still am obsessed with the sport. I think they sound amazing (like mini jet engines but still mechanical), have amazing torque and wicked 0-60 - they will only get better with time.

It's important to remember the ICE has been developed consistently and relentlessly for over 100 years now, the EV has been left only to be redrafted when governments and car manufacturers realise it's probably sensible and financially viable to develop them.

Sure the battery life is short and the cars are 'slow' (they're quicker than a GT3 round Donington, but ok), but the first car only went 10 mph and had 0.75hp, so I guess the ICE wasn't perfect from the off!

Give the EV 20 years and they'll be quicker than an F1 car (even over a race distance) and will sound like a supersonic jet.

 

[Akra]

The dire predictions for sucking the earth dry of petroleum are overblown. Let's say that at some point it will run out, but the "scientists" who as part of the first earth day predicted that we would be out of fossil fuel by 2000 are looking a little silly. Fuel is now more plentiful and cheap than they could have ever imagined. Someone will become rich off of whatever the eventual energy breakthrough is, but until that time we should continue to develop and refine the current methodology because it is cheap (relatively), highly efficient, and pervasive. It is much more likely that a 100 mpg high performance ICE will be developed and put in cars before a battery powered car and be produced and charged more efficiently. Also, my grandkids don't need my help. Just ask them.

Actually no they are not looking silly, if you actually understand the predictions of where they came from. We have been able to predict very accurately how much oil there is, and where. Geologists spend a LOT of money on drill ships finding oil reservoirs. The ships tend to cost around $4m a DAY to hire out, so they need to know what they are looking for before they go out, otherwise if you get it wrong a few times, you'll sink the entire company.

Predictions of when the oil would run out were not based on the amount of oil, but the amount of recoverable oil. That is, you can't actually get all of the hydrocarbons out of a reservoir. A hydrocarbon reservoir isn't just a big cave filled with oil, they're pretty complex things. In the early days it was extremely difficult to extract from some wells. Many wells were declared depleted and were plugged. With the improvements in technology (and the technology becoming cheaper), some of these plugged wells can be reopened, and current wells can have their life extended. For example, water injection wells mean wells that aren't free flowing can come back into production. Well services techniques such as coil tubing and wire lining mean you can treat the wells with chemicals to break down some barriers, allowing access to more areas. Directional drilling also means you can drill sideways now, which means a single platform now has a significantly increased production area. But the big one is the development of deepwater drilling - something which was completely impossible before (drilling from a semi-sub or a drill ship), is now possible. Expensive, but possible. This means opportunities in very deep water (Gulf of Mexico or West of Shetland), are now available to be used.

Nobody is looking silly. We have just developed technology to increase the amount of recoverable oil.

Someone will become rich off of whatever the eventual energy breakthrough is, but until that time we should continue to develop and refine the current methodology because it is cheap (relatively), highly efficient, and pervasive. It is much more likely that a 100 mpg high performance ICE will be developed and put in cars before a battery powered car and be produced and charged more efficiently.

This is a very odd statement. You say we should wait for a breakthrough, but continue with development of current technology. Breakthroughs don't just happen you know. People seem to think that Moores Law is a law of nature - it just happens. Technology just progresses. If that was the case, iPhones would grow on trees. In reality, development and breakthroughs only happen when a lot of smart people work very hard to achieve a goal. And that is what is happening. I am not suggesting that we should stop all current ICE development - I am all for the ICE engine, especially if they can break the magical 100mpg figure. However that does not actually solve the problem

Also, my grandkids don't need my help. Just ask them.

I don't know if you're trying to be smart, or be difficult, but you do realise that they are fine now because we have energy right? And in the future, if we do not come up with a solution, then future people...will not? Because we need to actually work at it, rather than just say "there's LOADS of oil, who cares?". You can sit and say it's not a problem because your grandkids are alive now, but all you're doing is deliberately side stepping the point to try and look clever. Sorry - your grandkids being alive now does not make oil and gas sustainable. The point still stands.

So, with all of that in mind, what are your plans for creating a sustainable energy solution for the future? Not for the environment, just for basic power when oil and gas has run out. How is the world going to continue? If you genuinely don't care, then that's fine (we can't all care about all things, so not caring about the future is a completely valid stance IMO). But if you don't care, don't try to tell the people who do care, and who are working towards a sustainable solution for future generations that they are wrong, and it'll be fine. It'll only be fine if people work on a solution.

Edit: again, I don't want electric motorsports. It is boring. But motorsport does need a solution one day. Hydrogen ICE should be where they go, to retain the noise and spectacle.

 

[Valrys]

I wasn't sold on Formula E until I went and saw it in London in 2015. The noise might not be the same as ICE racing, but I still love it. It's an entirely different noise experience, and you can enjoy both without one of them being bad.

 

[Shap]

Batteries....
All you people that love and want E Cars on the streets and tracks, could you please answer my questions?
Are you happy that one of the main ingredients for e-car batteries is mined using child slave labour in Africa?
Question for the Americans; Are you happy that China is the main manufacturer of the e-car batteries, meaning if the Chinese control the market, they can dictate the price? (Just like Saudi Arabia etc..does with oil).
Question for the Europeans; Are you happy that your governments lied to you about how safe and clean diesel was/is?
Which was all done for political and financial gains, not for our benefit.
Surely your government is not telling you lies and half truths again, just for political and financial gain again?

The main cause of all dirty air within every large city around the world is, the Diesel engine.
The Diesel engine that they, the governments, have spent years convincing us to change to.
Remember when diesel was cheaper than petrol?
Remember the tax incentives?
Remember when you could walk in a city and when you got home, you did not have to pick black lumps from your nose, just to breathe easy again?
Lung cancer deaths in the western world are not going down, yet less people smoke.
People who have never smoked, are getting lung cancer.
The government says it must be 'second-hand smoke from smokers'.
Really..
Nothing to do with the black lumps coming out of your nose...
Nothing to do with black stuff lining your lungs..
Your government convinced you.
Motorsport helped.
Audi Le Mans race car, the one that was diesel...
Pretty sure that helped Audi sell more diesel cars to rightly proud Germans...
We all want cleaner air in our cities, so ban Diesel engine powered vehicles from them.
Very simple.

The argument against the petrol engine, was the concept of 'global warming'.
Hence the rush for Diesel engines.
'Global warming' was based on a computer program that could predict the weather patterns years into the future.
A computer program.
We cannot predict the weather with a 100% accuracy for tomorrow, let alone in 10 years time, however that does not seem to matter..
And of course it would be silly of me to suggest that people would create a program, to create a problem that does not exist. You know, just to sell you stuff, or to tax you more.. No that is silly..
In the 1970's it was 'Global cooling'.
By now, as in today, the whole world would be covered in ice.
It is not.
Mr Gore was telling us a few years ago, that by now, as in today, the polar ice caps would of gone.
They are still there.
There are changes in the climate around the world.
It is the same thing that has always caused it.
The sun.
Not us, not the fish, not the apes, not the dung beetles...
The sun.
And not the car.

This whole 'Global warming' con is how we have ended up here, chatting about e-cars.
Some people believe without question the cult of 'Global warming', hence why some people are rather passionate about the subject.
Divide and conquer, that is the game that is being played.

E-cars are not the answer, we the people, are the answer.
Lobby to ban diesel cars, now.
Demand public transport.
Demand cars free zones in your cities.
Try walking..
Try a bike..
Oh, and ask the e-car racers, is child labour used in making their batteries?
'Racing' e-cars is part of reprogramming the masses, nothing more, nothing less.
If you don't get it, they have got you..

You seem like an interesting person. How's living without a cellphone? Is a bike your transportation utility or do you have an old T-Ford?

 

[Timmy UK]

Just a point of reference re; the U.K. Banning petrol and diesel cars from 2040.
The UK is not banning anything...really..
It is in the wording...
'conventional' petrol and diesel cars..
Diesel will go, because of clean air issues.
Good.

'Conventional petrol and diesel cars..'
'This essentially means vehicles that don't use hybrid assistance. Under this new regulation, car manufacturers will still be able to sell internal-combustion powered cars, as long as they are hybrids in some capacity.'

So, no e-cars...
How funny.

 

[Akra]

Just a point of reference re; the U.K. Banning petrol and diesel cars from 2040.
The UK is not banning anything...really..
It is in the wording...
'conventional' petrol and diesel cars..
Diesel will go, because of clean air issues.
Good.

'Conventional petrol and diesel cars..'
'This essentially means vehicles that don't use hybrid assistance. Under this new regulation, car manufacturers will still be able to sell internal-combustion powered cars, as long as they are hybrids in some capacity.'

So, no e-cars...
How funny.

Why is that funny? EVs are under development whether or not governments push it anyway. Golf GTE, Focus E, Tesla, Bolt, Leaf etc etc.

 

[Timmy UK]

You seem like an interesting person. How's living without a cellphone?

Thank you.
How kind of you.
I do not own or use a mobile telephone, I have a wired one in my home.
Works find; never have issues like no signal.
I drive a car, GTE thing.
From this century, petrol.
I have no issues with petrol, just diesel.
I also do not own a TV; does that make me more interesting in your view?
Or with you being American, you have just passed out...

 

[Timmy UK]

Why is that funny?

Why is it not?

 

[Akra]

Why is it not?

...generally to find something funny, it has to be amusing. The UK banning non-hybrid cars isn't funny for the same reason wallpaper is generally not funny. It's not amusing.

I guess you think it's funny as you're seeing some sort of irony, or link what others are not. So again...why are non-hybrid cars being banned, "funny"? Or are you just going down the "LOL E-CARS ARE DUMB" route? Or is there some weird irony that I'm not seeing?

 

[AvGas]

I'll be downtown for the race tomorrow (Montreal) I'll do a headcount.

 

[Timmy UK]

Dave, chill...
Your beginning to sound angry.
Like an angry cult member...
Wallpaper can be funny..
So can hyperbole headlines..
I have just looked at this thread, and read your stuff.
You have a point of view and so do I.
Tesla cars, technically bankrupt.
Not a good example..
Where does Tesla source the ingredients for their batteries?
Where exactly?
You disagree on global warm, fine.
It is the sun...
Not us..
Solar flare cycles...
You can show us all any graph/chart you want, proves nothing.
Because I could do the same to you, and you would say the same to me.
Pointless.
You like science.
How nice.
Theory, is the key word to remember when one is dealing with science..
If I could be bothered, I could rip your 'theory' to bits.
However this is not the place to do it, is it.
So let's agree, to disagree.
Have a nice day.

 

[Akra]

Tesla cars, technically bankrupt.

lol, no. Not technically bankrupt. The exact opposite. Potentially bankrupt is what you actually mean. Not technically. If they were technically bankrupt...they wouldn't be operating. Be careful with what words you use - in a scientific, business or engineering discussion, using the right words is important. Tesla is potentially in money problems. They are not technically bankrupt.

Where does Tesla source the ingredients for their batteries?
Where exactly?

Esmeralda County, Nevada. Around 200 miles from the Gigafactory itself. This is called vertical integration, where you use as little contractors as possible and produce as much of your own raw materials as you can.

In short: "Raw material goes in, batteries come out". It's also how SpaceX is run.

You can show us all any graph/chart you want, proves nothing.

lmao. Yeah sorry, I won't post stats, graphs, facts or science. Solar flares man. That's totally what it is. My car outputs solar flares ALL the time, it's a bastard.

If I could be bothered, I could rip your 'theory' to bits.

Yeah! The scientific community has nothing on you! We should stop buying products from self made billionaires who are backed by thousands of engineers, because Timmy said so. I'm so glad we have self declared experts who disagree with the general consensus of people who know what they are talking about.

We can agree to disagree if you want, which is good because I'm busying writing a Spa 24 report.

 

[Copef1]

Nobody is looking silly. We have just developed technology to increase the amount of recoverable oil.

.

Absolute nonsense. Its true that there has been a huge leap forward in technology in the oil industry, but to say that since the 1970's, when they used to tell us in school that we would be out of oil by the year 2000, that they haven't found any new oil reserves on this planet that weren't known about, is a huge lie. The oil industry finds new oil reserves on a yearly basis. All you have to do is google "new oil reserves found", and you will see a huge amount of stories on the subject. They have found a massive amount of oil that was unknown in the 70's, in the last 37 years, and there is no reason to think that they have found it all at this point.

 

[BenCollins]

Future most definitely electric. UK have banned petrol/diesel cars from 2040, so you can imagine no one will buy a non-electric car from say 2030.
This means most people will begin to transition over to electric from 2020, which is just over two years time.

 

[Shap]

Okay, some people don't believe in global warming or believe in a flat earth. There are numerous other reasons that could be deciding factors to get people interested. Like the lower intensity of sound. This makes racing in cities possible. Or the way the car delivers power(instantly) and makes up for exciting driving.

 

[BenCollins]

There is only about 55 years of oil left. Fracking has extended the life of oil, but it's not the future. Renewable, sustainable energy is the future, solar and wind power being the main two.

Technology will improve to maximise energy from these two clean sources. No more burning, no more pollution.

Good times ahead.

The internal combustion engine will only exist in museums, where it now belongs.

 

[Akra]

Absolute nonsense. Its true that there has been a huge leap forward in technology in the oil industry, but to say that since the 1970's, when they used to tell us in school that we would be out of oil by the year 2000, that they haven't found any new oil reserves on this planet that weren't known about, is a huge lie. The oil industry finds new oil reserves on a yearly basis. All you have to do is google "new oil reserves found", and you will see a huge amount of stories on the subject. They have found a massive amount of oil that was unknown in the 70's, in the last 37 years, and there is no reason to think that they have found it all at this point.

They have found LOTS of new oil reserves (I don't recall saying they've found zero no reserves?). But they have also known a lot of them "should" be there. This is how oil exploration works - they don't just go around with a big oil detector and find oil. Geologists map out the areas where oil should be, and if its obtainable then Shell send in a Stenna drilling rig to get it. If it isn't obtainable, nobody looks at it or even attempts to find it. When technology improves, you start looking at that again and you send out the Stenna Carron to find a new oil reserve...which you knew SHOULD exist, but had zero chance of actually getting to. Now you can get to it through deep water drilling and fracking.

Of course new oil is found all the time. Of course it was nonsense that it would run out in 2000, but then again geologists never said it would. That's just how it's reported. So no, the oil industry doesn't look stupid because they weren't the ones claiming it'll run out early (otherwise they wouldn't still be developing - it's not good business to claim your buisness will run out of material, is it?).

It probably won't run out in the next 20 years either. However....AGAIN, nobody has yet given me a sustainable solution. Whether oil runs out now, in 20 years or in 100 years....it will run out. It isn't infinite.So...what is everybodies sustainable energy solution? I keep hearing how awesome oil is, and how terrible solar panels are. Haven't heard any solutions from anyone though, other than "It's fine. Stop talking. Please don't remind me that we have an unsustainable energy source. I don't like this".

AGAIN- I love me a Bentley V8. I adore the Corvette engine. Doesn't mean the future isn't electric. Whether the future is in 10 years or 100 years is another matter. But we will run out, and I'd like the give the future people in the world a more sustainable situation, rather than sit around too fat and happy pretend it's fine.