GTR2: Why are Modern Sims Still Not as Good?

[Paul Jeffrey]

GTR2 is 11 years old, features a series that no longer exists and was developed for technology less advanced than a modern smart phone. Unbelievably it's still one of the best sims available today.

What I want to know is why? Why in the last 10 + years have some of the many awesome features found in this now long forgotten game not made their way into something more modern? Ok granted many different games feature some of the bits in GTR2, but no single title has taken what was already an incredible base and expanded upon it with the aid of much advanced technology we now have at our disposal.

Driving School? Check
Fully animated pit workers? Check
Animated flag marshals? Check
Day - night transition? Check
Weather cycle? Check
Full official series licence, over two separate seasons? Check
...and the list goes on and on...

Simply put GTR2 was massively overdeveloped, period. SimBin Studios quite literally took every single aspect of the then premier GT racing series in the world and recreated it all into a compelling racing experience that still stands out as a top simulation even by the standards of today, 11 years after the game hit our shelves.

I just find it all incredibility bizarre. In very few industries outside of sim racing will you see a decline in product quality and content as the years progress like we have to put up with today. When GTR2 first shipped in September 2006 the game was a complete package, not splattered with ridiculous bugs that prevented anyone having a good time, not bombarded by wave after wave of disparate DLC content with little or no relevance to the main experience and not hanging on by the merest thread for dear life as another iteration of something that's been released by someone else already. It really was a golden time for sim racing fans, and those who witnessed it all first hand really did think this would be the beginning of something big in sim racing.

Fast forward to 2017 and sadly the progress expected post GTR2 has quite simply not materialised. The game, the official simulation of the FIA GT World Championship, was probably the very last fully feature complete racing simulation we have seen in our niche genre. We've had loads of new games since then, some of which have even been released by the same people responsible for GTR and GTR2, but none have even come close to matching the level of features and polish afforded fans back in 2006. It's down right strange.

Take RaceRoom Racing Experience for example, developed as the next GT game from the people behind GTR and GTR2, when the title first hit public beta stage back in February 2013 what did we have? Basically a hotlapping simulation with limited content, no official series licence, no AI to race against and precisely zero multiplayer features. Added to the still missing animated flag marshals and a range of other GTR2 items that haven't made the move over with time, it's all rather a depressing scene in which to take in.

Ok I appreciate Sector3 have worked exceptionally hard at improving RaceRoom to get to a level where it is barely recognisable now to what it looked like on launch day, but still to even consider releasing a game that was basically stripped of everything that made GTR2 great is simply mind boggling.

And it's not just RaceRoom that are guilty of missing out some key features considered par for the course 11 years ago, everyone is doing it! You only have to look at one of the most popular sims on the market Assetto Corsa as a perfect example, they consider themselves to be perfectionists on a mission to produce the most true to life experience possible, and they even miss out the core basics like weather and day to night transition, never mind such "nice to have" features like a driving school, proper flag implementation and multiclass racing options. It's simply amazing to realise that these features quite simply only exist in a game that was designed and released over a decade ago. Unbelievable.

GTR2 still looks pretty good on top graphics settings, still feels very nice indeed with my trusty CSW V2 and still sounds like it belongs in the very top tier of audio experience. All that whilst replicating a seriously mega international championship in a exceptionally detailed simulation that really does pick out all the little features that makes driving on a virtual track feel like the real thing. With that said and the pretty compelling physics considering the age of the title added up with stuff that no other sim has all together in one package, this is why I still believe GTR2 is, without reservation, the very best simulation racing experience one can purchase during 2017.

I love the game, it's just a bit sad that no one has thought to try and make something similar in the following 132 months since it was released.

GTR was released by SimBin Studios exclusively for PC. The game is still available to purchase on Steam for £4.99.

Like GTR2? Well lucky you, we are seriously considering a brand new informal league! Check out the GTR2 sub forum for general GTR2 discussion or our new GTR2 RDGT Championship forum for more details of the new league season. To prepare for the league all we ask is you have Premium membership, a fresh GTR2 install and these two additional patches HERE and HERE. Get ready for a return of the legend....

Do you still enjoy GTR2? What did the sim do right in your opinion? Why do features present in GTR2 still not appear in moderns sims? Let us know in the comments section below!

 

[Damage Inc]

There's one important point not picked up on...the COST of licensing a full race series, with the cost of licensing all the cars, tracks, sponsors etc. I think it's the fact that those companies are money grabbing goits that have spoiled things more. It's basically free advertising for the sods yet they still want mega dosh from the devs.

Personally I'd love a modern BTCC game, and Aussie V8s, oh and Super GT.....ALL cars, ALL tracks, ALL rules, everything.

 

[JJSCA]

GTR2 the best sim ever, hmmmm that sound interesting... It is very (add a few more of these in here) good that I guess is pretty much unquestionable. But is it the best ? It depends heavily on what you are looking at really.

Graphics: well that is easy, most modern sim can keep up or do better.

Content: well that also, it features quite a few cars, but project cars has more...

Physics: despite GTR2 putting the bar very high, Assetto Corsa and Automobilista can keep up and then there is that weid animal Rfactor 2 which can be picture perfect or sometimes somewhere around the picture...

Sound: well there it really deserves a top ranking, but still can't get that Enduracers mod out of 1st place (the best Lamborghini ever )...

Day / night cycle: others have it, even rain, but still very true it is a rare occurence.

But where GTR2 just demolishes the rest is its coherence as a game representing a clear statement for a clear Serie with a clear goal. Back in the day the devs were fan of that series (not testimony on that except the game which speaks for itself), knew their tool and their limits as well as never seen again and knew exactly what they aimed for. So for me no GTR2 isn't the best sim in each aspect, maybe nowaday it even is not, but it is by very far the best at all together and miles ahead at proposing a focused and coherent experience.

To respond to your question why in 11 years that was not reproduced, I guess it shows something: the devs have lost their ways in technical stuff making it nearly impossible to bring a game to a level of maturity of GTR2, take rfactor 2 for me an absolute sleeping killer (if it really gets modern graphics and coherent mods a thing to keep an eye on), but so complexe to create cars for it even devs struggle with it... Or Assetto Corsa, it takes so much time to model cars to such accuracy. Plus I am not sure racing series are so willing to give away licenses nowadays... The nearest hit in recent times was probably game stockcar / Automobilista with the Brazilian Stockcar series (ironically with that same isimotor base under the bonnet), but is did not feature all the candy GTR2 had.

Sorry for the longish post, felt like a few things needed to be said about the statement made here...

Cheers,
JJSCA

 

[DeVxC]

This is sad... I stopped playing GTR2 around 2012/2013 and I think I need to go back AC is just hot lapin for me. Nothing is keeping me there for more then an hour ;/ where in GTR2 I could play 8 hour for example speed up 24h Le Mans race in Porsche 917.

But I have to disagree with author about decline in product quality, every genre of games was hit by this. I play many games and you can see this trend across all of them especially Shooters but also RTS, RPG and even Flight sim. Just look

 

[MatzeLoCal]

I'm pretty sure that I would do a lot races in GTR2 (or GTL) but unfortunately FFB is not working properly with my CSW v1. I have FFB for the first session but as soon as I go back to the pits and then back to the track FFB is gone.

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

Why are modern sims still not as good as GTR2 ? Because these young wannabe developers are lazy losers .... just kidding .. calm down

you mean ->

i think we have our answer to the inital thread-question ..... so who's gonna kill'em if they don't kill theirself

 

[William Levesque]

Easy fix: Specialize the game for one series (and possibly support series related to the main game). It's that simple. Sims nowadays are just all over the place, there's no way to make a coherent experience when that's the case, there's too much stuff going on.

 

[pafe]

Exactly Williams, we have alot of great sims around. Every sim is quite good in a special area offering something more in depth than the other. I played iRacing, AC, AMS and RE3. We can say physics differentiate here and there, but overall they are great in every title. But whats missing, especially from a singleplayer point of view is a sim dedicated to a series with all its characteristics.
I am most into GT racing and I would buy a IMSA, Blancpain and WEC Sim without hesitation, if they could provide up to date physics and the special characteristics of the series. In the end its all about immersion, that makes this hobby fun to me.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I'm pretty sure that I would do a lot races in GTR2 (or GTL) but unfortunately FFB is not working properly with my CSW v1. I have FFB for the first session but as soon as I go back to the pits and then back to the track FFB is gone.

Just had an issue similar, and i found when my wheel was not input device 1 or 2 in game..
only 3 input devices can be used.. had to unplug a button box...
Now its input device 1 and never a issue..

 

[Celestiale]

I am most into GT racing and I would buy a IMSA, Blancpain and WEC Sim without hesitation, if they could provide up to date physics and the special characteristics of the series. In the end its all about immersion, that makes this hobby fun to me.

R3E has the ADAC GT Masters (pretty much the best GT drivers, without all those amateurs) experience with all it's regulations and characteristics and it's racetracks. Same for DTM. Is at least a start

 

[Franklin Stegink]

On this site there are a lot of mods for gtr2.
http://trackaholics.nstars.org/

 

[Peter Stokman]

Just had an issue similar, and i found when my wheel was not input device 1 or 2 in game..
only 3 input devices can be used.. had to unplug a button box...
Now its input device 1 and never a issue..

In steam you can use more then 3 devices i had simular with rf1 standalone only 3 devices, bought steam version and now i hook 6 devices to my games

 

[Rupe Wilson]

In steam you can use more then 3 devices i had simular with rf1 standalone only 3 devices, bought steam version and now i hook 6 devices to my games

Maybe so in rfactor Peter, as the exe was updated but are you sure you can do this with GTL, and GTR2
and still your wheel has to be input device 1 or 2 in game to get ffb working properly regardless of how many input devices you have installed on the pc.

 

[Matt Orr]

Easy fix: Specialize the game for one series (and possibly support series related to the main game). It's that simple. Sims nowadays are just all over the place, there's no way to make a coherent experience when that's the case, there's too much stuff going on.

(Game) Stock Car (Extreme), DTM / ADAC GT Masters Experiences.

Frankly, now a days I feel that we are too used to having everything we want and then some, which is why now we have all this (frankly) crap logic perhaps best exhibited over in iRacing (though this is absolutely the case in all corners) - where an IndyCar isn't a proper stepping stone to F1, so we totally gotta have a GP2 or FR3.5, even though there is already something that fills that gap even if it isn't totally perfect to some contrived car list in our heads.

A long while ago I made a post in the ISI forums that rF2 should really just ditch the whole one of everything approach, focus on what they do best and have the best opportunity to create product differentiation - historics - and Tim responded with something to the effect of "we'll... we'd like to, we really would.... but we can't because umm, reasons."

Or in other words, you need those cars now, just like you need a day / night cycle and rain and waving flagmen. That cat doesn't go back in the bag.

Alternative wording : most racing series don't race at night. The vast majority of races take place in dry conditions. Most series don't even include pit stops in the grand scheme of things. Many sim races - in fact the vast majority of them overall - don't use any of those either, even if those features are available. Yet how much time did we spend throwing shoes at Stefano over AC v1.0? lol

There's one important point not picked up on...the COST of licensing a full race series, with the cost of licensing all the cars, tracks, sponsors etc. I think it's the fact that those companies are money grabbing goits that have spoiled things more. It's basically free advertising for the sods yet they still want mega dosh from the devs.

Personally I'd love a modern BTCC game, and Aussie V8s, oh and Super GT.....ALL cars, ALL tracks, ALL rules, everything.

I really do wonder about this. How did Simbin do it with FIA GT, FIA Historics, WTCC, STCC...? Sector 3 / Simbin still has WTCC, they have GT Masters which has pretty much everything besides Porsche and Ferrari...

So is it really as big of a deal as we think? Or is it a case of not being worth the work given the risk and what relatively little reward there is?

 

[Metla]

I agree with the opinion that nowadays each game is trying to be everything for everyone and in doing so falls short of making a complete experience for anyone.

Imo this is prompted by the 100's of cars that come in big budget console games being the yardstick other games are compared to, Plus the fact that the distributional systems available nowadays allows for the devs to start selling their game when it is far from a completed product.

If I were a game director I'd pick 4 racing series, 2 historical and 2 current and build a game around them rather then just random tracks and cars as seems to be the case now with little race structure to support them.

I also would prefer that DLC car sets were all from the same class (though I love the manufacturer car sets as well)

 

[Benjamin Kronaveter]

Driving School? Check
Fully animated pit workers? Check
Animated flag marshals? Check
Day - night transition? Check
Weather cycle? Check
Full official series licence, over two separate seasons? Check
...and the list goes on and on...

Please continue:
simulating the behavior of the tires (heat, wear, hard, soft)
laser scanned tracks
laser scanned cars
Support VR
.
.
.

 

[Damage Inc]

I really do wonder about this. How did Simbin do it with FIA GT, FIA Historics, WTCC, STCC...? Sector 3 / Simbin still has WTCC, they have GT Masters which has pretty much everything besides Porsche and Ferrari...

So is it really as big of a deal as we think? Or is it a case of not being worth the work given the risk and what relatively little reward there is?

I realise it's conjecture but the point is we don't know for sure. In the past licensing costs may have been more reasonable, highlighted by the fact GTR2 originally came with Ferrari and Porsche, but on steam now can no longer be sold with them (only added through aftermarket downloads and hacks). I believe the BTCC license is notoriously costly. It's awesome that S3 have ADAC and DTM (I enjoy racing them), I also very much enjoy racing MGP15, which is a VERY complete experience. But those series may have savvy people in charge of licensing and realise the benefits of their product being displayed to an audience who may not otherwise know of it....which is basically what advertising is! Just look at JGCT/Super GT.....I wouldn't have know that series even existed without Gran Turismo!! Off shoot of that is I now have a Tamiya Calsonic Skyline built and a Castrol Supra ready to be built, so right there is the indirect benefit of licensing out a product!

And as you say the devs have to weigh up whether they can recoup any cost of licensing a complete series, if the numbers don't add up they won't do it.

Just saying that I think it's unfair to blame the devs and I think it's indicative of the modern simmer, who seems to be colossally entitled which is basically what you were saying as well. Although I do believe that day night transition and wet weather ARE important features. Not every race is wet but in MOST series at least a few races ARE going to be wet, day night is important because of time and shadows, how many people rely on static shadows as brake markers? In reality that's not possible because shadows move, so a game that simulates that is more realistic in that regard. Personally I'm very interested in the whole evolution of grip levels, not just from rubber being laid down and detrious (dirt+marbles) outside the racing line but the effect weather has on this.....the track temp, wind affecting aero. etc etc. Everything that makes a track a living "thing" that evolves over time.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I realise it's conjecture but the point is we don't know for sure. In the past licensing costs may have been more reasonable, highlighted by the fact GTR2 originally came with Ferrari and Porsche,

If paid at all,
The world is a different place now,
But if i was Porsche for example, the fact the cars are in the game. i would of thought that was good advertising alone.
But NO i can only assume they wanted money to allow you to use the cars in a game..

Show me the money...greedx10

 

[Spinelli]

The answer is simple GTR1, GTR2, and GT Legends were made to be a true game if you know what I mean while most other racing games are literally just a list of cars and tracks, you select what you want to race, against what, where, and you race. To top if off, developers are obsessed over pumping out as many cars and tracks as possible (not to mention in [mostly payable] DLC) rather than focusing on the game itself. Every game does this - AC, AMS, RF2, PCars, R3E, etc. - they obsess over pumping out more and more cars and tracks instead of the fundamental underpinnings of the core game engine (whether it be graphics, sound, physics, features and functionality, and so on).

I'd personally rather have the core functionality of a game engine updated (again, whether it be graphics, sound, physics, features and functionality, etc.) rather than an endless stream of cars and tracks. I think it's shallow and uninteresting but the masses like "cheap thrills."

 

[David Wright]

If paid at all,
The world is a different place now,
But if i was Porsche for example, the fact the cars are in the game. i would of thought that was good advertising alone.
But NO i can only assume they wanted money to allow you to use the cars in a game..

Show me the money...greedx10

If Kunos' Marco is the king of licensing this decade, I feel Simbin were the kings of licensing back in the noughties. They did not have the backing of a big publisher and picked licenses which had an amazing variety of cars (I'm thinking of GTR/GTR2 and GT Legends in particular) for what was probably a very low cost license (in the context of the F1 and NASCAR licenses which were the norm back in the early 2000s).

I can only speculate that Henrik Roos (Simbin CEO and FIA GT driver) had a good relationship with Stephane Ratel, FIA GT series license holder. This is what Stephane had to say on the licensing issues that occurred after GTR2.

We also hope to develop video games. We have done this before with some beautiful product but there has been opposition from some prestigious manufacturers (over licensing).

I think this is wrong, it’s not about making money, today it is very important to promote the Championship and we hope to get the agreement of all the manufacturers to promote their cars and the World championship through a video game.”

 

[Ryan Robbins]

I spent a lot of time in GTR2. All time great sim. Been years since I played it and I am curious how it stacks up in FF and physics dept today. The Power and Glory Mod is fantastic. If I play the game again I would spend most of my time using P&G 3.