Going to DD after TS-PC, which one though?

[blekenbleu]

So, I get it: it IS normal that this happens random?

I propose a theory for why it might be random.
No idea whether it is normal, but found only one possibly related report.

the wheel itself isn't even moving

You feel it from the housing, but not the wheel?
Here is a DD1/2 teardown video.. no relays:

 

[RasmusP]

Random theory from my csw 2.5:
At some firmware update a few years ago, fanatec finally got rid of idle coil whine. They implemented some "constant friction" as soon as the wheel is powered on.
Sometimes when I power off my wheelbase the "tension" from this constant resistance/friction gets "released".
Maybe they did something similar with the DD wheelbases.
The steering wheel doesn't really move, it's really more like a sudden pop from releasing the tension.

 

[blekenbleu]

While searching DD1/2 issues, this user reported needing to add ferrites to USB pedal cable:

 

[Navigator]

So that's clear: no relay.
Going to be stubborn here....... It IS a clack near the on/off button and its not that hard and it IS the sound of a relay clacking

What I just mean by that is that there is no movement in the steering and that I am certain its not the QR. It's just to rule that out.
There is no relay either, so that can't be it.
Well maybe its the fan stopping pretty suddenly or something: I am not really worried about that sound, but the thing is: I was looking for something that might be off, right?

If you then find -what you first think- a relay clacking when shutting down and it not always does that: "well, I got something!"
But its not; I'm not worried about the sound, just thought that it would be the problem.

 

[RasmusP]

So that's clear: no relay.
Going to be stubborn here....... It IS a clack near the on/off button and its not that hard and it IS the sound of a relay clacking

What I just mean by that is that there is no movement in the steering and that I am certain its not the QR. It's just to rule that out.
There is no relay either, so that can't be it.
Well maybe its the fan stopping pretty suddenly or something: I am not really worried about that sound, but the thing is: I was looking for something that might be off, right?

If you then find -what you first think- a relay clacking when shutting down and it not always does that: "well, I got something!"
But its not; I'm not worried about the sound, just thought that it would be the problem.

Totally understandable!
It might be just the motor putting some constant pressure on like my base does. It's probably just the tension releasing from the materials.

 

[Michael Krone]

Better make a wooden rig and let cables come in from all sides

 

[Navigator]

Well I made a small video of the sound, but it actually speaks against me.
On video, it comes across way louder, different tone and more "violent".....
So I wanted to show: "see, it's just like a relay".........but nope, this is more like "a plane has come down!"
Anyway: it IS only in the back plate where you "feel" it and hear it: the wheel or even axle does not make a single move.

VID_20230729_163107076

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

 

[RasmusP]

Well I made a small video of the sound, but it actually speaks against me.
On video, it comes across way louder, different tone and more "violent".....
So I wanted to show: "see, it's just like a relay".........but nope, this is more like "a plane has come down!"
Anyway: it IS only in the back plate where you "feel" it and hear it: the wheel or even axle does not make a single move.

VID_20230729_163107076

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

Sounds very similar to my csw 2.5 base!
They probably copied the code for the idle "leaning against a static resistance" that they implemented a few years ago for my base.
I wouldn't worry about it!

 

[Michael Krone]

Well I made a small video of the sound, but it actually speaks against me.
On video, it comes across way louder, different tone and more "violent".....
So I wanted to show: "see, it's just like a relay".........but nope, this is more like "a plane has come down!"
Anyway: it IS only in the back plate where you "feel" it and hear it: the wheel or even axle does not make a single move.

VID_20230729_163107076

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

My DD2 did that...

 

[blekenbleu]

On video

On my system, sound in that video does indeed sound like a relay
(which we all agree is not there).

 

[Navigator]

Haha, we DO agree there is no relays in there, yes.
I only "insisted" for the type of sound: standing here next to the wheel, it is obvious its not the QR or something.

And the only way I was "worried", was because of I thought it was a relay at first and THEN its really weird it happens sometimes and not all the time.

But this is okay so: I'm satisfied with that, thanks guys!

 

[TedBrosby-]

to get back to the topic of DD's, I'll share my thoughts as I'm on the verge of getting my seventh DD from a different manufacturer:
Fanatec DD's are "acceptable", but the FFB is actually less smooth than their ClubSport wheelbase. The DD1 had noticeable "cogging" inside the pit lanes and through smooth low speed corners. The CSL DD was actually a little smoother than the DD1, but felt "weak" for 8Nm (a VRS set to 8Nm and the Logitech at 75% FFB strength felt stronger, significantly) and the quick release was incredibly suspect to me.
I've never used Moza, but everything I've read says their FFB is on par with the CSL DD and their hardware specifications lead me to believe this is the case.

Here's my DD ranking from best to worst -
1. Simucube 2 Pro - I imagine the Sport is just as good for the same reasons. Strong FFB, smoothest I've used, feels like a real sports car in the pit lane or driven to the limit. No cogging. Cons are that their wireless wheels are expensive and have less features than competition. It's 2023, Simucube needs to support LCD screens and LED lights without a cable. Second con is price. It's expensive.
2. VRS DirectForce Pro - 90% to 95% as smooth as the Simucube 2, but only $799. Plenty of power and lots of online support. Cons are you need both a shaft clamp and a mounting system because it's just a servo motor. Adding these brings it up to $900 and that's too close to the SC2 Sport IMO.
3. Logitech Pro Wheel - About 80% to 85% as smooth as the Simucube 2 and 11 Nm is what I consider the "sweet spot" of FFB strength. At 100%, you still get a decent amount of FFB max power. Plus console compatibility for Gran Turismo. That and the bundle with pedals is like $1300. Cons are Logitech hasn't released any new wheels or a Pro shifter and they're dragging their feet. Other con is if you're PC only there's way better options.
4. Fanatec DD1 (Podium Racing Wheel F1) - 75% as smooth as the Simucube 2, but it has 20 Nm of torque which is nice. Also wheels are "wireless" since USB is through the QR. Console compatibility with both Xbox and Playstation if you get an Xbox wheel. Single USB connection. Cons are that the FFB is noticeably coggy at low speeds like the pit lane or low speed corners. Other con is random FFB spikes. Nearly broke my thumb when I got pinned to the wall and tried to back out slowly. Other con is the QR has noticeable flex. Other "minor" con is that you cannot use non Fanatec wheels. However, this is a minor con IMO because if you buy Fanatec, you buy it because you want to use their wheels. Also, there are third party solutions to the QR/FFB issue like this but you'll need a metal QR. It's still annoying to deal with.
5. CSL DD/ DD Pro 8Nm - 80% as smooth as the Simucube 2, but only has 8Nm of torque so even though it's smoother than DD1, at full FFB it was too weak for me. You WILL outgrow this if you get it so plan on spending twice. Pro is console compatibility like the Podium PS4 DD1, plus being able to start with 5 Nm and upgrade. Con is that the shaft has a habit of cracking with the slightest amount of vertical pressure, slight QR flex, pedal port has a habit of breaking off and the FFB is weak enough that heavier steering wheels definitely dampen it.

The following DD's are ones I haven't tested yet but based on my impressions of them, where they stand -
1.5 Asetek Forte/La Prima - I'm going to be using this soon. I consider it to be better than the VRS but probably not as smooth as VRS or the Simucube 2. However, I like that Asetek lets you "upgrade" the components of it. It also has the QR with LED/USB support built in so "wireless". You can upgrade the wheelbase to be the 18 Nm version by buying the PCB and power supply. You can upgrade the steering wheel with a PCB and component upgrade kit. You can upgrade the pedals to be hydraulic. I admire this business mission because it reduces e-waste and lengthens the longevity of the product while building a good customer relationship. Plus I live near MicroCenter and they had a Tony Kanaan bundle (La Prima wheelbase and pedals with Forte steering wheel) for $1199. So definitely bang for buck.
2.5 Simagic Alpha Mini - A friend of mine who has this, I trust his judgment, he used my SC2 and said the Alpha Mini feels just as smooth. Someone on iRacing confirmed it actually has more torque than advertised, somewhere around 12/13. Simagic has been around for a few years now so the initial fears of it being a quick product where support vanishes have been proven false. Other Pro is the USB connection built into the QR, so they have quite a wide range of steering wheel products. If you're not wanting to get a bundle, this is a great option to just start out with. Get the wheelbase with QR and no wheel for $600 and just get a Thrustmaster OSW adapter and a generic NRG quick release.
4.5 Moza R9 - I consider this to be better than CSL DD for PC only sim racing for a few reasons. I've heard the FFB isn't that bad, and unless Moza is "overselling" the FFB, 9 Nm will definitely feel stronger than the 8 Nm of the CSL DD. Plus a better QR, better wheel system and cheaper access to universal wheels. Keep in mind this is not the same price range as Simagic Alpha Mini. The Alpha Mini is $600 without anything but the quick release. The Moza R9 with the ES wheel is $565. Much lower cost of entry.
6.0 TM T818 - I will probably get flack for this from some Thrustmaster apologists, but just, no. This thing was on my mind from the time it was teased and they just got so much wrong with it. Logitech didn't even tease their DD and still made it to market before TM did. It's only 10 Nm of torque despite being "$650", but it's not REALLY $650. Unless you're willing to drill holes into your cockpit wheel deck, you'll need to spend $40 on the adapter plate that gives it the same mounting pattern as the TM wheelbase. It's PC only. The quick release is notorious for having flex. The QR adapter that you need to use TM wheels is perpetually out of stock. And there's no third party option so "good luck". They haven't released the ability to attach universal wheels to the wheelbase yet. Even the "color plates" on the side are an added cost. If you are considering this because you have TM wheels already, just buy this and get a Simagic Alpha Mini. Or just sell your TM wheel and get a Moza R9.

My opinion is this - If you don't want to spend a lot initially but also want something you can grow with, get the Simagic Alpha Mini and a generic NRG quick release from Amazon and the TM OSW adapter. That will get you to where you can race for a year or two before you feel the itch to get one of those "nice" wheels. Plus, I'm sure you could sell your TS-PC Racer + TM wheels as a bundle and make up part of the cost. When you want a wheel but don't want to spend a lot, you can get the Simagic GTS wheel or search FB Marketplace as people are always selling their Simagic wheels when they upgrade to the Formula Pro wheel. I've seen the GT4 wheel going for as cheap as $250.

SC2 is the best, it remains to be seen if Asetek can hold a candle to it, but that's all "big boy big spending" and well into the diminishing returns of sim racing. That, plus your makeshift load cell pedals make me uncomfortable to think about, so I think you shouldn't invest a lot into the wheelbase and also set aside a little for pedals.

 

[dwightyone]

Nevah mind

 

[Ruttman98]

to get back to the topic of DD's, I'll share my thoughts as I'm on the verge of getting my seventh DD from a different manufacturer:
Fanatec DD's are "acceptable", but the FFB is actually less smooth than their ClubSport wheelbase. The DD1 had noticeable "cogging" inside the pit lanes and through smooth low speed corners. The CSL DD was actually a little smoother than the DD1, but felt "weak" for 8Nm (a VRS set to 8Nm and the Logitech at 75% FFB strength felt stronger, significantly) and the quick release was incredibly suspect to me.
I've never used Moza, but everything I've read says their FFB is on par with the CSL DD and their hardware specifications lead me to believe this is the case.

Here's my DD ranking from best to worst -
1. Simucube 2 Pro - I imagine the Sport is just as good for the same reasons. Strong FFB, smoothest I've used, feels like a real sports car in the pit lane or driven to the limit. No cogging. Cons are that their wireless wheels are expensive and have less features than competition. It's 2023, Simucube needs to support LCD screens and LED lights without a cable. Second con is price. It's expensive.
2. VRS DirectForce Pro - 90% to 95% as smooth as the Simucube 2, but only $799. Plenty of power and lots of online support. Cons are you need both a shaft clamp and a mounting system because it's just a servo motor. Adding these brings it up to $900 and that's too close to the SC2 Sport IMO.
3. Logitech Pro Wheel - About 80% to 85% as smooth as the Simucube 2 and 11 Nm is what I consider the "sweet spot" of FFB strength. At 100%, you still get a decent amount of FFB max power. Plus console compatibility for Gran Turismo. That and the bundle with pedals is like $1300. Cons are Logitech hasn't released any new wheels or a Pro shifter and they're dragging their feet. Other con is if you're PC only there's way better options.
4. Fanatec DD1 (Podium Racing Wheel F1) - 75% as smooth as the Simucube 2, but it has 20 Nm of torque which is nice. Also wheels are "wireless" since USB is through the QR. Console compatibility with both Xbox and Playstation if you get an Xbox wheel. Single USB connection. Cons are that the FFB is noticeably coggy at low speeds like the pit lane or low speed corners. Other con is random FFB spikes. Nearly broke my thumb when I got pinned to the wall and tried to back out slowly. Other con is the QR has noticeable flex. Other "minor" con is that you cannot use non Fanatec wheels. However, this is a minor con IMO because if you buy Fanatec, you buy it because you want to use their wheels. Also, there are third party solutions to the QR/FFB issue like this but you'll need a metal QR. It's still annoying to deal with.
5. CSL DD/ DD Pro 8Nm - 80% as smooth as the Simucube 2, but only has 8Nm of torque so even though it's smoother than DD1, at full FFB it was too weak for me. You WILL outgrow this if you get it so plan on spending twice. Pro is console compatibility like the Podium PS4 DD1, plus being able to start with 5 Nm and upgrade. Con is that the shaft has a habit of cracking with the slightest amount of vertical pressure, slight QR flex, pedal port has a habit of breaking off and the FFB is weak enough that heavier steering wheels definitely dampen it.

The following DD's are ones I haven't tested yet but based on my impressions of them, where they stand -
1.5 Asetek Forte/La Prima - I'm going to be using this soon. I consider it to be better than the VRS but probably not as smooth as VRS or the Simucube 2. However, I like that Asetek lets you "upgrade" the components of it. It also has the QR with LED/USB support built in so "wireless". You can upgrade the wheelbase to be the 18 Nm version by buying the PCB and power supply. You can upgrade the steering wheel with a PCB and component upgrade kit. You can upgrade the pedals to be hydraulic. I admire this business mission because it reduces e-waste and lengthens the longevity of the product while building a good customer relationship. Plus I live near MicroCenter and they had a Tony Kanaan bundle (La Prima wheelbase and pedals with Forte steering wheel) for $1199. So definitely bang for buck.
2.5 Simagic Alpha Mini - A friend of mine who has this, I trust his judgment, he used my SC2 and said the Alpha Mini feels just as smooth. Someone on iRacing confirmed it actually has more torque than advertised, somewhere around 12/13. Simagic has been around for a few years now so the initial fears of it being a quick product where support vanishes have been proven false. Other Pro is the USB connection built into the QR, so they have quite a wide range of steering wheel products. If you're not wanting to get a bundle, this is a great option to just start out with. Get the wheelbase with QR and no wheel for $600 and just get a Thrustmaster OSW adapter and a generic NRG quick release.
4.5 Moza R9 - I consider this to be better than CSL DD for PC only sim racing for a few reasons. I've heard the FFB isn't that bad, and unless Moza is "overselling" the FFB, 9 Nm will definitely feel stronger than the 8 Nm of the CSL DD. Plus a better QR, better wheel system and cheaper access to universal wheels. Keep in mind this is not the same price range as Simagic Alpha Mini. The Alpha Mini is $600 without anything but the quick release. The Moza R9 with the ES wheel is $565. Much lower cost of entry.
6.0 TM T818 - I will probably get flack for this from some Thrustmaster apologists, but just, no. This thing was on my mind from the time it was teased and they just got so much wrong with it. Logitech didn't even tease their DD and still made it to market before TM did. It's only 10 Nm of torque despite being "$650", but it's not REALLY $650. Unless you're willing to drill holes into your cockpit wheel deck, you'll need to spend $40 on the adapter plate that gives it the same mounting pattern as the TM wheelbase. It's PC only. The quick release is notorious for having flex. The QR adapter that you need to use TM wheels is perpetually out of stock. And there's no third party option so "good luck". They haven't released the ability to attach universal wheels to the wheelbase yet. Even the "color plates" on the side are an added cost. If you are considering this because you have TM wheels already, just buy this and get a Simagic Alpha Mini. Or just sell your TM wheel and get a Moza R9.

My opinion is this - If you don't want to spend a lot initially but also want something you can grow with, get the Simagic Alpha Mini and a generic NRG quick release from Amazon and the TM OSW adapter. That will get you to where you can race for a year or two before you feel the itch to get one of those "nice" wheels. Plus, I'm sure you could sell your TS-PC Racer + TM wheels as a bundle and make up part of the cost. When you want a wheel but don't want to spend a lot, you can get the Simagic GTS wheel or search FB Marketplace as people are always selling their Simagic wheels when they upgrade to the Formula Pro wheel. I've seen the GT4 wheel going for as cheap as $250.

SC2 is the best, it remains to be seen if Asetek can hold a candle to it, but that's all "big boy big spending" and well into the diminishing returns of sim racing. That, plus your makeshift load cell pedals make me uncomfortable to think about, so I think you shouldn't invest a lot into the wheelbase and also set aside a little for pedals.

Great survey of current DD offerings; thank you for sharing.

Much food for thought for the OP.

Being based in the U.S., the 20 Nm VRS DFP is most compelling to me for price per FFB strength, improved software, rugged and proven servo design, solid build quality, and--significantly--support (3 year warranty is more than other manufacturer).

Simagic wheelbases are attractively priced, have good software support, and the real car QR is excellent quality at a reasonable price. Simagic wheels seem a bit overpriced when stacked against their competitors.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Moza R9 last Christmas, but my local Micro Center could not find the one that was listed in stock. Like Simagic, the QR is one of the best available and reasonably priced. I even bought a CS wheel which I later returned never opened. After research and deliberation, I determined Moza's encoder has significantly less resolution than competitors like Simagic.

With Micro Center nearby and the TK Asetek La Prima/Forte wheel bundle is tempting pricewise, if not a tad gaudy.
I will be following your Asetek La Prima experience closely!

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Microcenter also sells Simucube 2, just saying.
Buy once, cry once.

 

[Navigator]

Thank you guys, those are some good reads and much to think about.
However; I told you how I was 'forced' into a Fanatec and after that, I was in doubt to long to send it back. I actually had it all packed......

But now, I wanted to keep you up to date on new things: I told mister F about the 8,55 volt and they told me they wanted to have a look at it. So I send the base back, they wrote to me there was a problem with it and they have already send me a new one.

On hollidays right now, but I'm curious to test the new one.