Assetto Corsa Payware, Mods Approval discussion

[Shadow Explorer]

I didn't read the entire thread but what I really hope, regarding modded cars.. is that AC will take the time to apply some kind of "censorship" to the mods.. so it will not become just like rFactor with a bunch of crap or unfinished mod..

Mod's can be REALLY good for a simulation but it also kills it on some other aspects..

LOL, thats the most stupid idea I ever encountered...
This will just discourage inexperienced people who want to get into modding
and in the end there will be no new modders...

better help those people if they still exist, to become better so they can produce "better quality" mods...

 

[Fred Joseph]

censorship is heavy one...

Damn you're right..

Censorship is to heavy you're right.

I'll send you a pm when I get two minutes.

(and I wasn't really offended don't worry )

 

[Diogo Ramalho]

I do understand both sides... but I think I will chose the free market (no money involved).

One of the worst natural characteristics of human is greed. When money gets involved you get greed no matter who you are and what principles you have.

Yes, I do understand the importance of money in today's life (I'm Portuguese and at the moment we are passing trough a very hard moment so you know this is one thing I must have in mind), but until now we get tremendous quality mods without any money involved, so why mess things now?

I also believe that great modders should be supported with money but that decision should be on the side of users because that's what makes a REAL support.

Modders don't need money to do a great work however it helps on some aspects (license issues and probably properly tools to do their job) but if you have the money and don't have the passion you will never beat a work of a passion modder. The best mods I have seen on simracing were done with a lot of passion.

If someone feels that their work is very good and the people that uses it should pay for the content, the best way is to folow REIZA exemple, make your own product.

Sorry if it sounds offensive to anyone, it was not my purpouse, just my honest opinion.

I hope KS decision on this matter be the right one.

Cheers

 

[Hampus Andersson]

...correcting me...
Another issue that rises.

How do you feel about solutions like asano...
do you think it is better not to have license for something and sell it as a fictional design.

In such a case you adopt a design that doesn't belong to you, I would like your thoughts about this one.

You are correct, got a little ahead of myself there, basically what i was trying to say was you can´t sell mods because they in reality belong to the manufacturer at hand.

I don´t know really. it´s interesting with games as you say can be considered art but i think once you make money of something it´s also a product.

I think manufacturers could be way more open to mods. Let´s say a person creates a car, he then contacts BMW for example and says, i´ve made this and i will sell it for X dolalrs, let´s split the money.

I think that´s a fair way to do things but manufacturers want all of the cake and not just half, that´s the problem.

What i don´t like is "80% mods". 80% of the design, 80% of the name.

Edit: also if modder plans to make mod but not make a single dime on it then i think Manufacturers should ignore it.
There´s no money lost anyways.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Money and simracing is the biggest lol of the century and the centuries to come.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

The laws that apply to all things created, copied, sold, etc. are very complex. Unless you hold a masters degree or higher in copyright and related laws - then we would probably be amazed at how wrong we all are. There are so many details and stipulations that have to be considered in these issues that we cannot possibly begin to understand all of the complexities.

Some of these ideas about what constitutes art and copyrights are just wrong and even the use of a person's "likeness" is protected by law. It's just a matter of the person having the will and the means to protect it.

I do not believe they are really wrong,I'm sorry.
laws are weird and most of the time created by the corporations for their sake...
(mickey mouse protection act) etc...

So arguing about those kind of things leads nowhere.

for my part, I will create anything I like without fear about any law,otherwise I would be enslaved.

Freedom of expression is much more valuable to me.
In case something it is not my Idea (like an existing machine)
I respect it's creators for giving me such a beautiful subject to work with.
So I credit them for that, and also means that I cannot sell my work.
but the work itself it is my own interpretation of the subject and belongs only to me.

of course I agree with you Hampus and Bram,
once you turn your work into a product (charging money)
then you become a developer and all related laws apply to you as well(or should).

so we are saying the same thing.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

I do understand both sides... but I think I will chose the free market (no money involved).

One of the worst natural characteristics of human is greed. When money gets involved you get greed no matter who you are and what principles you have.

Yes, I do understand the importance of money in today's life (I'm Portuguese and at the moment we are passing trough a very hard moment so you know this is one thing I must have in mind), but until now we get tremendous quality mods without any money involved, so why mess things now?

I also believe that great modders should be supported with money but that decision should be on the side of users because that's what makes a REAL support.

Modders don't need money to do a great work however it helps on some aspects (license issues and probably properly tools to do their job) but if you have the money and don't have the passion you will never beat a work of a passion modder. The best mods I have seen on simracing were done with a lot of passion.

If someone feels that their work is very good and the people that uses it should pay for the content, the best way is to folow REIZA exemple, make your own product.

Sorry if it sounds offensive to anyone, it was not my purpouse, just my honest opinion.

I hope KS decision on this matter be the right one.

Cheers

As someone hailing from Greece,I really feel you my friend.
and of course I agree with everything you write.


btw who is supporting payed mods in this thread?
I failed to see anyone

 

[CCX]

Paid mods should not (and hopefully will not) ever happen. It's just a hobby, not something to make money out of. It is done only for pleasure, and it must stay that way. We are at risk of losing modding as it is, even without it being paid.

 

[Shadow Explorer]

well there are already some efforts by some parties to make modding payware but again I fail to see anyone in this thread supporting it (including me).

 

[RaceNut]

I'm not sure that a judge would agree that making an exact copy of a car design in digital form constitutes "Art" and therefore can only belong to it's (Art) creator. The real design belongs to the car-maker, not the one copying the car design. At least, that's the way it works in the US.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

I would like to pay a mod team to make me a car if I could afford it. I would want the car to still be a free mod for anybody to use.

 

[Dinca Andrei]

I would like to pay a mod team to make me a car if I could afford it. I would want the car to still be a free mod for anybody to use.

Thats another story,but there is another way..donate to a proffesional moding team to support as the final product will be free for everyone anyway.

 

[3dnooblet]

Paid mods should not (and hopefully will not) ever happen. It's just a hobby, not something to make money out of. It is done only for pleasure, and it must stay that way. We are at risk of losing modding as it is, even without it being paid.

Modding for a game 10 years ago was not difficult. Cars where simple, 15k polies, small textures, not many details, fewer physics parameters, simpler sounds, etc etc. This has increased exponentially, and so has the amount of time needed to create anything decent.

Whereas you could do a decent mod in a few months working in your spare time, now its more like a year or more. The almost instant gratification of having something running and working properly ingame is not there anymore. Possibly by the time you finish a mod, half of the lifecycle of the product will be gone and rumors of the next new version will be around. I understand why modders are looking to go for $. Its not as easy as it once was.

 

[XN-Sigma]

I agree with 3dnooblet that modding has become increasingly more difficulty over the years, 10 years ago when I made my first cars for NFS6, they had at most 16k polies, I remember the first car I made in 3ds Max took me exactly 12 days to make and import into NFS6, it looked quite decent for the time, now while I'm suffering with the woes of modeling a 60k+ polies Prowler as accurately as I can make, I can't help but wonder "Is this even worth the effort?", and I dunno how to answer this question.

The problem with modern modding is that it takes so long to get a model done that you just lose interest halfway through the process, and I'm saying this as someone who knows how to model, texture, and do all the ins and outs of modding, now imagine someone who has never modeled, or barely knows what polygons are and wants to make mods, they will be overwhelmed by the insane difficulty of making nice quality mods and will end up doing what most modders do today, which is convert models from other games.

I can't really blame them, it's an easy and fast way to get some reward, much easier than spending months of hard work in a mod that in the case of a beginner may not even end up good enuogh, so why even try? If you look at more popular moddable games, like GTA4 for example, you will notice they are dominated by conversions from other games, Sim communities are probably the last place where there are still some serious thought put into scratch made mods.

And this brings us back to the discussion in this thread, I too think newcomers (and veterans) to the modding scene should feel motivated to make mods in some way, for now what motivates me is to in the end be able to interact with my creations in a game I like, but for others it might not be enough, which is why the idea of paid mods is starting to surface, this brings many problems that have been discussed already, but I think the direction of the discussion should move from "what's legal or not about paid mods" to "How could we motivate people to make mods?", it's clear scratch made mods are on the verge of dying if new blood doesn't come along, so lets see what we can do to make the modding community grow again?

 

[Shadow Explorer]

a united community is the best place to start.
as for scratch made mods dying,I wouldn't say so.
Keep in mind that there is no new sim yet out to spark interest.
so for now things are slow.

 

[William Levesque]

I think an independent, unbiased organisation comprised of a bunch of fans/drivers should create a list for quality control.

If a car passes all the checklist points it´ll get a stamp of approval and people know that´s a Class A model they are downloading.

I like the idea, bloody pain in the arse to find a proper mod sometimes when you wander around... Except for the better known one, obviously.

Although the problem with this is, who is respectable enough to judge a mod ? I've tried some mods which were highly regarded, some high rated on rFactorCentral and others (more obscure ones) highly praised on F1-Classic, only to find out they were absolute wank. Good graphics (Mostly) and sounds (More rare), but complete garbage physics. (Ever seen a stock 1999 Civic gripping like a ZR1 Vette ?)

So yeah, we should elect a judging table with people like Niels and Some1

 

[Shadow Explorer]

I'm really sorry to say ,but there isn't any objective method to critique something.
simply because different individuals have different tastes and expectations
about your civic vs corvette argument, I'm not saying you are wrong,
nor I know the mod. but I do not see why a civic shouldn;t have a good amount of grip
epsecially being a slower car.

also you cannon have judges.. we are not a talent show...
better create a page and let anyone who wants to review the mod both with score and a short text.

and just disregard those who do not back their score with a good written review.

 

[William Levesque]

about your civic vs corvette argument, I'm not saying you are wrong,
nor I know the mod. but I do not see why a civic shouldn;t have a good amount of grip
epsecially being a slower car.

Ever seen a STOCK Civic pulling over 1.00G on a skidpad ? Thought so.... This is exactly what I'm talking about. Great physics are great physics, there's no way around it. Also, again putting off your opinion:

Slower car =/ More grip

Why do you think a slow car would have more grip may I ask ? Grip as to do with tyres, suspensions, weight, even overall balance. Not power ?

 

[Shadow Explorer]

Me sentence was wrong,what I wanted to say is it might be easier to control.
being slower.
you are correct on the reasons that contribute grip,by calling it garbage my mind went elsewhere...

you may disregard my comment,since it is invalid

 

[William Levesque]

LOL, one of these nights eh ?

 

[Shadow Explorer]

yes,sleepless as well^^