Are pneumatic pedals as reliable as those based on elastomers? (NT)

[Elaphe]

NT

 

[a_ekis]

I do not understand this.
99% of the cars and motorcycles on the market have hydraulic brakes and the number of failures of these elements is almost zero.

A real car pump and piston receiver are ridiculously priced.

Why complicate life so much if the simplest, cheap and reliable (if you don't create garbage) is what is used in reality?

 

[blekenbleu]

what is used in reality

Reality has long hydraulic lines, including flexible hoses,
plus calipers (which are not perfectly rigid0
and rotating rotors (which have runout, knocking pads back, increasing lost motion)
and fluid that is liable to boiling.

Sim racing reality also has hydraulic brakes occasionally leaking fluid in your home.

 

[Elaphe]

Actually I didn't mean hydraulic systems, but pneumatic (based on compressed air), like the SRP pedals.

 

[a_ekis]

Actually I didn't mean hydraulic systems, but pneumatic (based on compressed air), like the SRP pedals

I know what you mean, and that's what I'm saying.
In my opinion it is a desire to complicate something that can be done very easily and reliably.

I use both types of systems in my work and hydraulic installations are much more reliable than pneumatic ones in my experience.

As for the external elements listed by the colleague who answered before, for me they are easier to simulate in a hydraulic system than in any other and using elements of proven quality (which are not expensive) would be something truly rare to see.

 

[stigs2cousin]

@Elaphe :

Difficult t say as the sample size is really small.

To my knowledge SRP is the sole manufacturer and uses bespoke cylinders which are manufactured for them or even inhouse.
So if SRP ceases production or even goes belly up you have expensive paper wheights as soon as the first problems surfaces.
There´s a long list of boutique sim manufacturers that went extinct quickly and unannounced, e.g. Racewerks, HPP and so on.

A loadcell pedal of the usual suspects has bespoke parts of course, but these are unlikely to fail.
Rubbers/elastomers will wear out but are easily replaced from other sources.
Loadcells and circuit boards need a little more knowhow but the parts are out there.

Hydraulics are also proven technology but add more complexity and failure points.
I´ve seen everything fail in my job, from brake calipers to master cylinders and several hoses and pipes.
Still I´m dreaming of a DIY hydraulic brake but am wary of leaks because I hammer my Heusinkvelds way more than the Subaru/Brembo/Ferodo system on my toy car.

So, for long term reliabilty stay with mechanical elastomer/spring operated pedals from a trusted manufacturer.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Rubbers/elastomers will wear out but are easily replaced from other sources.

Or even replaced with much longer if not forever lasting springs, like these brake upgrade kits from MRP.

 

[Elaphe]

@Elaphe :

Difficult t say as the sample size is really small.

To my knowledge SRP is the sole manufacturer and uses bespoke cylinders which are manufactured for them or even inhouse.
So if SRP ceases production or even goes belly up you have expensive paper wheights as soon as the first problems surfaces.
There´s a long list of boutique sim manufacturers that went extinct quickly and unannounced, e.g. Racewerks, HPP and so on.

A loadcell pedal of the usual suspects has bespoke parts of course, but these are unlikely to fail.
Rubbers/elastomers will wear out but are easily replaced from other sources.
Loadcells and circuit boards need a little more knowhow but the parts are out there.

Hydraulics are also proven technology but add more complexity and failure points.
I´ve seen everything fail in my job, from brake calipers to master cylinders and several hoses and pipes.
Still I´m dreaming of a DIY hydraulic brake but am wary of leaks because I hammer my Heusinkvelds way more than the Subaru/Brembo/Ferodo system on my toy car.

So, for long term reliabilty stay with mechanical elastomer/spring operated pedals from a trusted manufacturer.

I've heard many horror stories with hydraulic pedals. Honestly, I don't want to have to worry with maintenance or, even worse, with the consequences of leakage or a catastrophic failure. I currently own the HE Sprints and I don't really know what is the best way for an upgrade. I've read the HE Ultimate's brake is hydraulic but doesn't require maintenance. Actually, the pedal doesn't look like hydraulic with all those intimidating fluids deposits, pipes, etc. you can see in other models.

 

[metalnwood]

@Elaphe :

Difficult t say as the sample size is really small.

To my knowledge SRP is the sole manufacturer and uses bespoke cylinders which are manufactured for them or even inhouse.
So if SRP ceases production or even goes belly up you have expensive paper wheights as soon as the first problems surfaces.
There´s a long list of boutique sim manufacturers that went extinct quickly and unannounced, e.g. Racewerks, HPP and so on.

A loadcell pedal of the usual suspects has bespoke parts of course, but these are unlikely to fail.
Rubbers/elastomers will wear out but are easily replaced from other sources.
Loadcells and circuit boards need a little more knowhow but the parts are out there.

Hydraulics are also proven technology but add more complexity and failure points.
I´ve seen everything fail in my job, from brake calipers to master cylinders and several hoses and pipes.
Still I´m dreaming of a DIY hydraulic brake but am wary of leaks because I hammer my Heusinkvelds way more than the Subaru/Brembo/Ferodo system on my toy car.

So, for long term reliabilty stay with mechanical elastomer/spring operated pedals from a trusted manufacturer.

100%.
If I was ever tempted to go with hydraulic again it would be with someone using off the shelf parts that I know I can by and replace if/when I need to. IMO, these very custom hydraulic solutions are waiting for problems to arise, like the many HPP customers.
I went back to loadcell after a couple issues with hydraulics and peoples experience will differ but I would personally not buy hydraulics with custom made parts. I think the early pioneers of this stuff using real car parts/master cylinders etc may have replaced a part or two after all these years but they have not had to bin the whole thing.

 

[metalnwood]

I've heard many horror stories with hydraulic pedals. Honestly, I don't want to have to worry with maintenance or, even worse, with the consequences of leakage or a catastrophic failure. I currently own the HE Sprints and I don't really know what is the best way for an upgrade. I've read the HE Ultimate's brake is hydraulic but doesn't require maintenance. Actually, the pedal doesn't look like hydraulic with all those intimidating fluids deposits, pipes, etc. you can see in other models.

The HE ultimaes are like the sprints so far as they use a loadcell and anything that would break on them could be sourced by you, if you needed to. Worst case the electronics dies, HE were out of business you could hook up a bodnar board and go again.

I love my HE ultimates, they have sucky pedal faces if you have high brake pressure but the worst thing against them is that they don't look like value for money compared to other options. I still think they are great but may warrant a price reduction and it may come if they see others biting in to their profit.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Actually the Ultimates work exactly like the Sprints but with higher force limits AND hydraulic dampers that simulate hydraulic brake feel.

Except for this dampers most ( potentially) failure prone parts can be replaced out of the industry parts pool.

And the biggest advantage with Heusinkveld is that it´s not a one man show but a multi person company with industrial design and test procedures and a sound financial background.

100%.
If I was ever tempted to go with hydraulic again it would be with someone using off the shelf parts that I know I can by and replace if/when I need to.

Actually a lot of problems I saw in the last three years ( even Simtag!!) originated exactly there:

most manufacturers used a Wilwood pull cylinder as brake slave that was designed as clutch slave cylinder and had massive leakage problems ( I think it couldn´t handle our "Big Foot braking pressures" )

Most of these manufacturers now use bespoke brake slave cylinders which are way more reliable.

IMO, these very custom hydraulic solutions are waiting for problems to arise, like the many HPP customers.

There´s an interesting new approach from Simagic which still uses a loadcell but replaced the elastomer stack with a hydraulic unit very similar to HPP´s solution.
way to new for long term experiences though.

I went back to loadcell after a couple issues with hydraulics and peoples experience will differ but I would personally not buy hydraulics with custom made parts. I think the early pioneers of this stuff using real car parts/master cylinders etc may have replaced a part or two after all these years but they have not had to bin the whole thing.

I´ve been musing about that for a while now and still I´m not sure if its worth the hassle to build my own hydraulic brake ( I´ll definitely keep gas and clutch from Heusinkveld) or if I should just upgrade to the Ultimates.

 

[metalnwood]

I´ve been musing about that for a while now and still I´m not sure if its worth the hassle to build my own hydraulic brake ( I´ll definitely keep gas and clutch from Heusinkveld) or if I should just upgrade to the Ultimates.

I dont think you would be unhappy with the ultimates, they really are great. I tried the mrp springs on them as mrp are only 8 minutes from where i live. That is about the only upgrade I think that can be done to make them more reliable long term as far as not having rubbers to replace at some time.

The springs have a different feel and i am used to them but i can't say it is an upgrade that you would fall in love with right away. They are just different and ultimatly you do get used to anything. The combo i use is similar to the rubbers but I could not get something i liked with the other combos.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I've heard many horror stories with hydraulic pedals. Honestly, I don't want to have to worry with maintenance or, even worse, with the consequences of leakage or a catastrophic failure. I currently own the HE Sprints and I don't really know what is the best way for an upgrade. I've read the HE Ultimate's brake is hydraulic but doesn't require maintenance. Actually, the pedal doesn't look like hydraulic with all those intimidating fluids deposits, pipes, etc. you can see in other models.

HE Ultimate has dynamic dampers, not brake cylinder, I haven't heard of them leaking, perhaps because the oil pressure is much lower. Take a look at Simtrecs, amazing pedals, there is thread around.

 

[Elaphe]

So, do you think I should replace my Sprints with the Ultimates considering the only thing I'm interested is a more realistic brake pedal feel? I don't want a higher load to simulate GT3 or F1 cars, but rather something like a street car.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Well, we can´t think with your wallet

It´s something worth thinking about, but only a testdrive will give you clarity.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

So, do you think I should replace my Sprints with the Ultimates considering the only thing I'm interested is a more realistic brake pedal feel? I don't want a higher load to simulate GT3 or F1 cars, but rather something like a street car.

Upgraditis is an uncurable disease.
I've moved from HE Pro to Simtrecs GT Pro, and it was worth every penny, completely different level of craftmanship. Had HE Ultimate on my list for a very long time, but decided on those after long research of the available options, no regrets whatsoever.
What specific "brake" feel are you after, most RL race pedals have high resistance short travel, there is hardly any "feel".

 

[Elaphe]

Upgraditis is an uncurable disease.
I've moved from HE Pro to Simtrecs GT Pro, and it was worth every penny, completely different level of craftmanship. Had HE Ultimate on my list for a very long time, but decided on those after long research of the available options, no regrets whatsoever.
What specific "brake" feel are you after, most RL race pedals have high resistance short travel, there is hardly any "feel".

The Simtrecs look even more refined and awesome than the Utlimates and they are less expensive. I'm watching some reviews now and I'm impressed.

 

[metalnwood]

I am not sure what you want either, if you dont want more pressure but want a different feel like a road car then maybe the ultimate wont give you what you expect, i am not sure.

You can also get a spring kit for the sprints and maybe that will give you the feeling you are after with softer springs.

HE Sprint Brake Spring Upgrade Kit

MRP Brake Spring Upgrade Kit for Heusinkveld Sprint Stock is due 25 March 2024 – Please check back to order 8x Springs 3x Spring Retainers Material: High Quality Japanese Spring Steel Brake Stiffness: From medium to super-hard feel Many hours have been spent using VRS to log brake trace to...

www.mrpltd.co.nz

 

[Elaphe]

I am not sure what you want either, if you dont want more pressure but want a different feel like a road car then maybe the ultimate wont give you what you expect, i am not sure.

You can also get a spring kit for the sprints and maybe that will give you the feeling you are after with softer springs.

HE Sprint Brake Spring Upgrade Kit

MRP Brake Spring Upgrade Kit for Heusinkveld Sprint Stock is due 25 March 2024 – Please check back to order 8x Springs 3x Spring Retainers Material: High Quality Japanese Spring Steel Brake Stiffness: From medium to super-hard feel Many hours have been spent using VRS to log brake trace to...

www.mrpltd.co.nz

I know, but I'm not sure if I should invest more in upgrading these pedals. The Sprints are not bad, but they are not top. They squeak, get rust, they are small, the pedal plates are sharp and with a flat uncomfortable surface, not smooth on the throtle and not grippy on the brake... I would like something sturdier and better built, made with better materials.

 

[metalnwood]

I know, but I'm not sure if I should invest more in upgrading these pedals. The Sprints are not bad, but they are not top. They squeak, get rust, they are small, the pedal plates are sharp and with a flat uncomfortable surface, not smooth on the throtle and not grippy on the brake... I would like something sturdier and better built, made with better materials.

I had a set of sprints I bought for a rig for one of my sons, I didnt spend a lot of time on it but the he brake and throttle are quite a bit better on the ultimates to me. The throttle was nicer and the brake more configurable. The bad news, the brake still has a small not very comfortable pedal face. If you are not planning to use more pressure than your sprints I dont imagine it to be an issue in socks, if you wear something like aqua shoes its even better.
I use an aftermarket pedal face and it is a huge improvement for me as a sock racer but that is also because I use higher braking forces. I don't see how you could be unhappy if you can swallow the price. They are also quite easy to attach things to, I have two exciters on the throttle and two exciters and an earthquake mqb on the brake... All easy to come up with a simple mounting solution for these pedals.