Am I the only one who don't understand why people like AC?

[pinkimo]

Hi,

I'm a bit disturbed after having played a few hours to AC (on PC with a G27).

I love racing games of all kinds and it's very rare I don't like a good game. I've had a lot of fun on simcades like GRID and GT6, I've started realsims a few weeks ago with GSCE and AMS, and I have so much fun with them. I've also tested and liked R3E, GTR2, rF2 and RACE07.
I've spent my weekend configuring and testing AC, I've tested at least 20 cars (core content + a few mods, race cars and road cars) during more than 5 hours. I've tried hard to like it, but I think I like almost nothing in it.

Almost all cars I've tested seems to weigh 3 tons, everything seems so sluggish. I don't really feel the acceleration, they don't brake well (I've to brake earlier on AC with ABS than in AMS without ABS on the same car, and braking without ABS on cars which have ABS is a pain in the ass, even after having increased the brakes gamma), they don't turn well (not so much grip), and there is not much feedbacks from the road.

And perhaps the main problem, perhaps what makes me feels it's so sluggish, is the engine sounds. Most I've heard feel so artificial, completely liveless, and often closer to a mower than a car. I've not heard anything that bad in 10 years, feels like a (not so good) 90's game.
And as if it was not enough, they've added a huge muffled effect (even on the outside sound...), which mask the power of the engine, even for the rare cars with a not to bad engine sound.

I'm completely amazed when I see videos of "the best engine sounds in AC" with comments like "It sounds better than IRL"... Did they ever have heard any real powerfull car or any engine sound from any other good game?

I remember my first lap on the Nordschleife with a Z4 on GT6, it was so fun, very grippy, fast passed. I've done 2 laps on the Nordschleife with a GT3 on AC and it was not that fun at all (even if I've liked the details of the laser scanned road).
Last 2 days, after having passed 2 hours testing cars on AC, I did a few laps of some of the same cars on the same track on AMS, it was a few laps of fun after 2 boring hours...

I could think that the success comes from gamers which discover realsims with AC, but I see many people playing with other realsims who like also AC, which seems almost impossible to me.

Do I miss something? I just can't understand how what I feel in this game, which seems obvious for me, seems so different of what most people feel.
So I feel disturbed and a bit alone, so I post to see if I'm really alone

Regards.

 

[PicoBp]

Gosh!
If you have an input lag problem, which could not be mended in this thread, ask or it!
Don't go putting the folks to the forks.
And your example is nothing but war mungering!
There is no such lag, dude! Never was, never will.
You just seem to have a serious hardware problem!
Hardware, or Wetware, I might think!

<mod-edit: Retracted the language part, don't need to go that far huh>

Gosh, calm down, I never told I have an issue. Don't even have the on-screen wheel enabled. Simply tried to explain different approaches in internal mechanics, but seems like I'm in the wrong topic.
Regarding input lag, it does exist and you can not eliminate it, just minimize. What is generally described as input lag is the sum of delays in USB polling, input processing, calculations, graphics rendering and the time the display needs to show the picture. At 60Hz a frame is shown for approximately 16ms, and as that's the end of the chain, it means you're always at least a frame behind. Monitors also have 10+ ms actual response time, up to 40-80ms for TVs. It's a design choice to aim for minimizing the perception of this delay or not, but it's always there to a level. It doesn't make or break a game, but its existence can't be denied.

 

[RMR1]

Gosh, calm down, I never told I have an issue. Don't even have the on-screen wheel enabled. Simply tried to explain different approaches in internal mechanics, but seems like I'm in the wrong topic.
Regarding input lag, it does exist and you can not eliminate it, just minimize. What is generally described as input lag is the sum of delays in USB polling, input processing, calculations, graphics rendering and the time the display needs to show the picture. At 60Hz a frame is shown for approximately 16ms, and as that's the end of the chain, it means you're always at least a frame behind. Monitors also have 10+ ms actual response time, up to 40-80ms for TVs. It's a design choice to aim for minimizing the perception of this delay or not, but it's always there to a level. It doesn't make or break a game, but its existence can't be denied.

You need to learn that AC seperates the physics between graphics and felt input.
Two completely different lanes...
If I can be bothered, I search Stefano's explaination on this...

 

[PicoBp]

You need to learn that AC seperates the physics between graphics and felt input.
Two completely different lanes...
If I can be bothered, I search Stefano's explaination on this...

You need to learn some manners. It's not a war, a discussion. I'm not referring to "something I read the other day", but have 20 years of actual programming and IT experience. I know how multi-threading works, and am familiar with the solution AC uses, but inputs still have to be processed to become outputs, and that takes time. Getting a picture shown on your monitor takes even more. Just have a look at your refresh rate, it's not infinite Hz, right? Neither is your CPU overclocked to inifinite GHz, correct? So you always have to wait for data to get processed and the display to refresh. Until then, you're stuck with the last known state, you experience latency, or lag if you like that word better. The amount may vary, but it will always be there in anything that involves processing, therefore every single app, game or sim.

 

[RMR1]

You need to learn some manners. It's not a war, a discussion. I'm not referring to "something I read the other day", but have 20 years of actual programming and IT experience. I know how multi-threading works, and am familiar with the solution AC uses, but inputs still have to be processed to become outputs, and that takes time. ,Getting a picture shown on your monitor takes even more. Just have a look at your refresh rate, it's not infinite Hz, right? Neither is your CPU overclocked to inifinite GHz, correct? So you always have to wait for data to get processed and the display to refresh. Until then, you're stuck with the last known state, you experience latency, or lag if you like that word better. The amount may vary, but it will always be there in anything that involves processing, therefore every single app, game or sim.

Mea culpa, and my honest excuse! Didn't meant to insult you. I am bit over the top right now! Sorry...

 

[Radu Oros]

Regarding input lag, it does exist and you can not eliminate it, just minimize. What is generally described as input lag is the sum of delays in USB polling, input processing, calculations, graphics rendering and the time the display needs to show the picture. At 60Hz a frame is shown for approximately 16ms, and as that's the end of the chain, it means you're always at least a frame behind. Monitors also have 10+ ms actual response time, up to 40-80ms for TVs. It's a design choice to aim for minimizing the perception of this delay or not, but it's always there to a level. It doesn't make or break a game, but its existence can't be denied.

Given that latency is always there and nothing happens in instant 0ms, I don't perceive latency with naked eye or hands on the steering wheel.
I'll give you my setup so to make a frame of reference. 60hz resolution at 5ms monitor latency with locked 64fps no vsync, G27 wheel with FF_SKIP_STEPS=0 (so that the game sends the higher frequency, whereas at =1 is half of it. I think it only affects FFB Hz sent to the wheel as the game always operates in the max physics frequency established no matter your setting for the FFB).
I don't know if the steering degrees has any effect on how you perceive the total latency of the car when driving it. But instead of the 900º (in game controls axis page) I use 870º ( with 435º virtual steering (video options - view tab) so that all cars match to my real wheel and 0% min.force with 100% gain in all cars; logitech profiler remains at 900. I play with car steering wheel enabled and I don't perceive any latency of inputs on naked eye nor staring at the screen.
Ps. My gpu is from AMD and amd uses prerendered frames 1, so I don't need to change in the game files the maximum_frame_latency from 0 (default of your gpu) or 1.

 

[David Wright]

You know majorly well that we're not talking about tire relaxation length here, .

Maybe we should be.

 

[Avo77]

Yep, 'cause in AC cars is way too short...

 

[Radu Oros]

Yep, 'cause in AC cars is way too short...

If it would be the correct relaxation length in AC cars, what would change in the handling of those cars?

 

[norbs]

I wonder what would happen if I started a thread like this in either the rf2 or ams forums here?

Same as her. Fanbois up in arms, haters running around with their hair on fire and everyone else shaking their heads.

And after the sushi remark, it wouldn't be your most inflammatory post anyway!

 

[William Levesque]

If it would be the correct relaxation length in AC cars, what would change in the handling of those cars?

Longer gearing.

I think. If I'm understanding this relaxation thing correctly

 

[Stereo]

Relaxation length is a weird way to shorten the name for it cause it actually means "the length of time it takes the tire to react", when you turn the steering wheel the tire has to move a small distance sideways before it can exert any force, since when it's completely vertical the sidewalls don't transmit horizontal force from the contact patch to the wheel.

It makes steering response softer/slower, doesn't really have any effect on performance of the car (lat/lon G force, speed, etc) other than that you need to turn-in sooner to make the same apex point if a car has a longer relaxation time. For the most part load transfer of the actual body is slower and is the more significant component of turn-in response (I would guess in every case, but maybe some weird edge cases have super stiff suspension and large sidewalls)

 

[William Levesque]

I see. Guess I mixed that up with whatever you call the effect of the tyres growing taller at speed.

 

[Eric Neo]

Given that latency is always there and nothing happens in instant 0ms, I don't perceive latency with naked eye or hands on the steering wheel.

Hello Radu, you're right to say that there are no visible latency on the on-screen steering wheel, i suppose it doesn't take much to process & update the steering wheel position on screen.

However, the lag that we're talking about is the delay between turning the physical wheel and when the car respond on screen. It is a small lag, but it's noticeable, it is the processing time of the physics calculation. If you only play AC, you kinda get use to it after a while. But if you do 2 hour stint in say AMS or RF2 and jump straight into AC, the steering latency is pretty obvious. Well it's not really a deal breaker but it is definitely something that can be improved and to be honest, i don't hate AC, i have 500+hrs of AC and plenty of online multiplayer fun with it.

Yes, tire has relaxation length, but the delay caused by it is so small IRL that human brain can't really detect it. In fact, if you drive any good handling car IRL, you can feel that the steering respond is almost instantaneous.

 

[Chris]

I was talking about the delay between the virtual steering wheel and my T300. It's incredibly small, but it is noticeable, but only when you're looking for it. It doesn't detract from the experience IMO as when you're actually driving the cars you don't notice it.

 

[Avo77]

Relaxation length is a weird way to shorten the name for it cause it actually means "the length of time it takes the tire to react", when you turn the steering wheel the tire has to move a small distance sideways before it can exert any force, since when it's completely vertical the sidewalls don't transmit horizontal force from the contact patch to the wheel.

It makes steering response softer/slower, doesn't really have any effect on performance of the car (lat/lon G force, speed, etc) other than that you need to turn-in sooner to make the same apex point if a car has a longer relaxation time. For the most part load transfer of the actual body is slower and is the more significant component of turn-in response (I would guess in every case, but maybe some weird edge cases have super stiff suspension and large sidewalls)

True, but the most relevant effect of a longer RL is the car becoming more unstable and difficult to be controlled in case of adherence loss.

 

[Stereo]

If you only play AC, you kinda get use to it after a while. But if you do 2 hour stint in say AMS or RF2 and jump straight into AC, the steering latency is pretty obvious.

If you could actually measure it that'd be neat, I'm curious how much longer it is.

 

[Reik Major]

I assume your doing enough laps to heat the tyres up, because some of your descriptions sound like a car not warmed up.

Could you please describe the way of heating them up properly a bit detailed? I like to drive the R8 LMS Ultra when I find the time but have no clue about using the compounds well. The softs are overheating after 1,5 laps and the mediums nearly never come into the "green temp zones" with the same setup. So what should I do to have the tires working best for a few fast laps at Spa for example?

 

[speedrcr]

You know majorly well that we're not talking about tire relaxation length here, since the lag can be observed in the on-screen steering wheel. It's a major problem in AC.

In my experience, it was a common problem, but most of the time was not a problem with the game. I personally witnessed this with the Fanatec's (GT3, GT2, Clubsport v1 base). Especially the Fanatec GT3 till a Beta Firmware and driver package came out. This is more of a technical issue that if you fail to search around for you'll have to live with it.
This became even more of an issue using Oculus as you need the wheel parity to be there. Once the drivers and firmware were upgraded the issue was partially fixed. You then had to update your BIOS, chipset, and USB drivers as well. I've witnessed many times that if you don't have your proper drivers and at times rely on "Windows" given drivers you're going to take some input hits especially via USB 3.0. This has been a bigger factor in Windows 8.1 and 10, since both may supply "good enough" drivers. Also some drivers don't get upgraded if you migrated to Windows 10 recently. This became more of an issue after the Anniversary Update that has been known not to source previous Windows 7 drivers.

Making sure you are using the proper driver from your vendor is a big slice of the pie.

One may question "how come it's not happening in other games?"

Well not all games are created equally, they may use a different engine that calls on things with less overhead or at times more.

Now granted had I not been trying to help a series of friends, I don't think I would have dived so deeply.

Have you even taken these steps to correct the problem? I'd be curious to know what you've done to try to fix it.

 

[speedrcr]

I had a 560 Ti when AC came out and I got it to run fine, that was one of the nice aspects of it - the game looked good enough within the parameters I had to play (hotlapping). It didn't impact inputs. No change in steering wheel.

Yeah can run fine depends on what your parameters and resolution are compared to the next guy. I ran AC at first in 2014 @ 720P for a while on a 46" TV in order to keep my FPS up in multiplayer races.

I'd be curious as to what your FPS is now compared to when it first came out.

 

[speedrcr]

Given ISI motor is DX9 ergo less optimised than AC on DX11 I disagree.

The engine in AC is flawed in the sense that the understeer nature is virtue to the fact that you enter corners at mach1 thinking your going a lot less as any immersion is non existent.

Each to their own, but until Kunos resolve this if they can it will be shelved.

The current tyre model 10 is the worst of the lot

Ha who ever told you DX11 is more optimized than DX9?

If you believe this then there's a lot you are actually missing.

The "Workflow" is much more efficient, and allows an expansion into better graphics. But as far as being optimized, it was more or less greatly improved. If anything DX9 will have a better performance matrix due to the lack of it's overhead. Newer cards will chomp through it like it was nothing. DX11 on the other hand will have a larger impact on performance if your not well equipped.

The under-steer effect you talk about sounds more like a personal perception and possibly a lack of fine tuning your sense to it, or perhaps a performance metric on your PC.

I noticed things runs smooth but so do things in Battlefield 2 compared to Battlefield 3. If you want to make a comparison of engine to engine, the era and what's that's the difference.