Winning on mid-range hardware?

[markg88]

I have just been reading the posts about people's favourite item of sim hardware. Not surprisingly, decent pedals feature highly. When people mentioned the really expensive hardware such as Heusinkveld Ultimate + pedals and DD wheels, triple screens. VR etc it made me wonder, did those that spent the fortune that they did find it suddenly made them regular winners/regular podium finishers, whereas before, they were at best midfield ? Did that spend make them much much faster? or just similar pace but more consistent?
Can sim racers of lesser financial means, or those less prepared to spend that money even if they could, be winners/podium racers on more mid-range hardware such as Fanatec or Thrustmaster? I'm not thinking 'rookie' series type races but races against experienced sim racers.
I appreciate there is probably an alien or two that can win with cheap hardware so they don't count, I'm talking normal folk

 

[Clover11]

Gear won't make you faster. The inputs you feed into the gear will.

 

[alexSchmurtz]

I only did the three levels on pedals:

1. I started with the junk 2 pedals set from my T300, let's call this entry level (there are much better ones). They were basically on/off switches, with no feel, no feedback.
2. Bought CSL Elite pedals with load cells (there were 200€ then, in 2018). Cheapest LC available then but let's call this mid-range. That was a real game changer! I needed a couple weeks to adapt to the LC but from there I mostly gained consistency (able to repeat the same time or close lap after lap) but also some speed (over time so it probably has more to do with the time spent driving than because of the better equipment). With them I made the switch from a flimsy Playseat Challenge to an extrusion rig; being much more rigid, I felt like I had new pedals again! This is were I gained speed: I was then able to replicate the same braking more easily.
3. Finally bought Sprints. Elites were starting to show their age (4 years) but mostly to get a nice piece of equipment I could aford then, let's face it... Much nicer, this time the throttle surprised me most at first (much smoother both on and off), didn't gain speed, maybe a tiny bit more consistency again. But for 4 or 5 time the price of the Elites, they were not 4 or 5 times better. This is much more the jump I felt going from the basic TM to the Elite! Maybe 10 times better then.

So no, better equipment does not make you faster. Only time spent on track will (appart from the natural born aliens). But if a nice rig full of great pieces might leads to spending more time driving... then you'll improve! But fortunately you cannot buy better lap times. Some entry level pieces are just too basic and will slow you down. There is a sweet point where some gear are a bit better than the basic entry level without spending a fortune. The rest above is to get more immersion, more pleasure, but not better lap times.

 

[markg88]

Ok, so basically, as long as one has a decent wheel and decent throttle and brake pedals (load cell at minimum}, then a driver with the necessary skill and experience can compete equally with the similarly skilled and experienced driver who has spent multiple thousands on his PC based simulator? Is that right? If so, it does seem very extravagant to spend that much just for the immersion.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Check my LB positions on most tracks in AMS2 in TT mode in most formula cars
No reason to buy higher end wheel than this - if you have some kind of driving talent

BæTheWay: No pedals needed

 

[markg88]

Check my LB positions on most tracks in AMS2 in TT mode in most formula cars
No reason to buy higher end wheel than this - if you have some kind of driving talent

BæTheWay: No pedals needed

View attachment 658827

what wheel is that? no pedals? how come?

 

[BrunoBæ]

what wheel is that? no pedals? how come?

Ahh come on Mark.
You can just check the name on the pic.
And conserning pedals then check how many levers there is on the back of the wheel.
And if you dont believe how good the wheel is then check the mentioned LBss in AMS2.
Bragging off\

 

[markg88]

Ahh come on Mark.
You can just check the name on the pic.
And conserning pedals then check how many levers there is on the back of the wheel.
And if you dont believe how good the wheel is then check the mentioned LBss in AMS2.
Bragging off\

LOL, yes, I should have clicked on the pic I'll google it up. I may even try one, who knows.
I don't mind you bragging
Is it a driving experience though, or more like a video game experience but with a super-duper controller? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't drive, just wondering if it is realistic. I do like the minimalistic approach though.

 

[Neilski]

Ok, so basically, as long as one has a decent wheel and decent throttle and brake pedals (load cell at minimum}, then a driver with the necessary skill and experience can compete equally with the similarly skilled and experienced driver who has spent multiple thousands on his PC based simulator? Is that right? If so, it does seem very extravagant to spend that much just for the immersion.

Not sure I'd use the word "equally" there but some things I would say:

• some drivers are faster with better gear, others are actually slower, but better gear can improve immersion for anyone
• all things being equal, better gear might indeed decide the winner of a battle, but I reckon that would be very rare because in my experience skill is FAR more important than gear - i.e. a tiny variation in skill will win over a large quality difference in gear
• I would leave the load cell out of your minimum spec
• in more than one sim, I've been pretty happy with my overall performance (not a top 1%-er, but certainly deeply into the top 10%) but still beaten by drivers using a MOUSE for steering, brake and throttle...

 

[BrunoBæ]

Is it a driving experience though, or more like a video game experience but with a super-duper controller? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't drive, just wondering if it is realistic. I do like the minimalistic approach though.

It does absolutely feels like using a higher end wheel.
BUT without FFB effects - ofcourse.
And an even more urgent BUT is that you have to buy one way of clamping it to a table or frame.
Because orig the SRW-S1 is ment to be used handled free in the air only holding in the hands and arms. And eventhough this does absolutely function you get tired in your arms after a while.

So as you can see in my pic I have mounted the wheel on the table via an old Trustmaster Modena clamp via a quick release thing.
I have also mounted another of my SRWs on a Trustmaster T500 base (FFB).
Both these DIY projects I have documented in.
SRW-S1 - From toy to mounted PC wheel.doc
Mating_SRW-S1_to_T500_the_professional_way.doc

If you treat the SRW reasonably nice then it will last many years.
Hehe and because I didnt know this I bought 8x SRW-S1 as spares.
And are about to figure out if I should sell some of the unused in their unopened boxes.
The price have shot up because the wheel has been discontinued.

 

[BrunoBæ]

in more than one sim, I've been pretty happy with my overall performance (not a top 1%-er, but certainly deeply into the top 10%) but still beaten by drivers using a MOUSE for steering, brake and throttle...

Im probably what you would say a 1% in the TT mode in AMS2 and the same in Raceroom before the game via an update did make it impossible for me to start the game.
I agree with your points BUT conserning your thing about mouse control and/or game controller control then these guys have an advantage on certain tracks.
Thats my experience.
On certain tracks you get an advantage if you can change controller input very quick from extreme positions to the opposite extreme.
Only on such tracks it can be an advantage using game controllers - IMO

 

[stigs2cousin]

When you get the basics right:

comfortable seating position with the ability to exactly reproduce your inputs and the necessary visual acuity the rest is more talent than equipment.

So you don´t necessarily need a rig if your position from seat to pedals and wheel does not change during a race.

You need a steering wheel and pedals that allow you to do your inputs in exactly the same way over and over again.
If you can do that on spring pedals you saved a lot of money.
A FFB wheel makes life much easier for me, but on the E Sports level is not necessary, these guys drive more or less on optical cues only.

I myselfcome from real life (sporty, not racy) drivinh and can´t do on a E Sports level.

First and biggest step was from 42" TV to 27" tripple screens, from there on my vision could be utilized the same as irl, seeing all the corner made me hit the lines better and react way faster to the´cars movement.

In my case HSV Sprints made my braking much more consistent, the SC2 made my steering much more consistent and the tactile feedback setup allows me to drive "with the seats of my pants" which at least let´s me compete on the intemediate level.

So yeah, the yourney into an high end rig made my life much better with regard of simracing.

MFG Carsten