Why Should I Be Excited?

[tpfitz]

Rant begins.

All these sims are basically copy/pasta versions of previous games that are copy pasta of rFactor, all with new shiny graphics and slight tweaks here and there. Are they actually getting better? Not really. They are just looking better. AMS2 looks good but lacks the depth that a sim racer should have at this point. I will contend that AMS1 is better in many areas comparatively. And no, I don't want to hear the talking point that AMS2 was built from the ground up like the shills at the Steam forum push. There are literal remnants of PC2 in it, including bugs and UI.

Speaking of UI ... UI's in all the sims are horrible and some don't even try to hide that they are just copy/pasta the UI from game to game and even to previously released games that get a UI "update"

To this day, real championship multi-class race scoring is missing in most sims.

Most of the same AI problems persist year after year. Can I pause the game and set up my pit strategy yet or do I have to fiddle with it as I'm racing a small and tight road course. Instead of editing files, is there a built in UI to fiddle with the values and create profiles THAT ARE TRACK AND AI CAR(s) SPECIFIC that can also be downloaded online and copied into a folder? Why am I editing XML files in AMS2 in 2023? Is there a way to EASILY within the game (in the UI) to speed a car up in the chicane at Daytona RC while slowing it down around the first turn? Can I pick and choose every single car, the driver and team name within the game at the time of a race or beginning of a season/championship within the game? Why is the hyper car sitting behind the GT car down the straights of Daytona RC? Why are the cars breaking way later than they should be able to or braking earlier than they need .. and if so, I can I easily change that within the UI?

Sim after sim after sim.

We can make explanations or excuses all day long (and some are probably valid) ... but thats not the point. The point is that I have very little faith that the devs are going to give a fully flushed out sim - WETHER THEY ARE CAPABLE OF IT OR NOT. They didn't do it in GTR2 when they could of ... why would they do it now? And honestly, GTR2s AI car selection process was ridiculous, restrictive and unintuitive even when it came out and was just a carry over from rFactor. Lets come out and say it ... GTR2 was just a mod for rFactor sold as an independent game.

The graphics aren't the problem anymore ... its the UI and features available to the player. The physics aren't the stumbling block anymore ... its the small things. And the small things take a lot of time to flush out and implement ... and devs just don't want to waste time on it. its easier to just copy/pasta and make as much money as they can from a "new" sim while putting the least amount of effort and time into it. And that is what is happening in the racing sim arena to this date. Why would I expect it to change?

I hope GTR2 Revival is the best racing sim ever created and has all the features we should expect from a current gen racing sim. But it hasn't happened yet and therefore I have very little anticipation for this new title. Hope I am proven wrong.

 

[jgf]

Developers are going to create what they think will sell to the most consumers. Today multiplayer and VR are major selling points; so AI, championship seasons, 24hr racing, "configurability", even weather are all secondary concerns. I have stuck with GTR2 all these years mainly because it has all those features where newer sims have tended to be excellent in one or two areas but deficient, if not totally lacking, in others.

There has also been a shift in race sim enthusiasts over the years. Many gamers today want to tackle a new game, master it, do everything in it, then dump it and move on to the next "latest greatest". Few want to learn and master driving, setups, etc.; so there's little incentive to program in that direction. Simplicity and profit are the keys.

As for UI, I often wonder if programmers ever actually use their own software. Worst UI for a sim (of those I've tried) is RBR, not only is it a wretchedly obfuscated menu system but you are forced to navigate it via the keyboard (devs apparently having never heard of a mouse).

 

[blackskull101]

GTR2 was just a mod for rFactor sold as an independent game.

No, not "a mod for rFactor".
A "mod for F1 challenge 99-02" or even a "mod for F1 2002" - that would be closer to the truth.

 

[Pete Conway]

No, not "a mod for rFactor".
A "mod for F1 challenge 99-02" or even a "mod for F1 2002" - that would be closer to the truth.

Why not go even further and claim that they're simply adaptations of the 1930 arcade mechanical driving games, or even further to 1900 and call them just a re imagined mechanical yacht racer game.
No the fact is if you're peeved with today's offerings then you are as much at fault as are the devs, we've all allowed the commercial system to sell this crap by saying "shut up and take my money" for decades, and "yeah, take any personal information you want from me, just tell me the same story that the other site told me and show me a picture"...
By doing that we've allowed companies to run rampant with data, and not care one iota about promises because the world and his mate will just buy it anyway... and as long as we keep breeding then "there's one born every second"

 

[blackskull101]

Why not go even further and claim that they're simply adaptations of the 1930 arcade mechanical driving games, or even further to 1900 and call them just a re imagined mechanical yacht racer game.

Because Simbin started as a modding team called SBDT creating mods for F1 2002 (the GTR2002 mod) and the version of isiMotor engine they later used (and somewhat updated) for GTR2 is the F1 2002/F1 challenge version of isiMotor engine.
1930 arcade mechanical driving games and mechanical yacht racer games have nothing to do with GTR2.
F1 2002 and F1c 99-02 has a lot to do with GTR2.
rFactor 1 uses different version of the ISImotor engine, so calling GTR2 "a mod for rFactor" is not correct.
And for the record - I don't like and don't support modern type of simracing games, with their endless WIP state, no modding allowed, gathering user personal data, etc.

 

[Pete Conway]

Because Simbin started as a modding team called SBDT creating mods for F1 2002 (the GTR2002 mod) and the version of isiMotor engine they later used (and somewhat updated) for GTR2 is the F1 2002/F1 challenge version of isiMotor engine.
1930 arcade mechanical driving games and mechanical yacht racer games have nothing to do with GTR2.
F1 2002 and F1c 99-02 has a lot to do with GTR2.
rFactor 1 uses different version of the ISImotor engine, so calling GTR2 "a mod for rFactor" is not correct.
And for the record - I don't like and don't support modern type of simracing games, with their endless WIP state, no modding allowed, gathering user personal data, etc.

As for your last statement I agree with your dislike for pixel by pixel releases, after all, once the Alpha or Beta has been paid for what motivation is there to fix stuff and generate more content, far better to dissolve the company and start another or brake it down and sell/merge parts to confuse the public.
However I don't believe that the history of the engine matters anywhere near as much as what came from it, like the V10 truck engine that found it's way into the Viper, the results that GTR/GTLegends/GTR2 are still head and shoulders above many of the offerings today are not just because of the engine but what was done with it.
Hence my crawl back in history... it's sim racing at the beginning and today we have a development of that.

 

[Durge Driven]

I don't buy this about ISI.
As far as I know AI was always a secondary consideration for them.
People been saying since F1 series ( the great bun fight ) about something or rather, this or that.
It even divided some of the GTR2 - rFactor community, very soon rFactor slow corner drivability came into question among other things. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black !
Yet the way most talked they expect anything and everything to be easily fixed.
Tell me where are all the brilliant engineers could rebuild gmotor code.
Gmotor is gmotor if nothing rF2 has proved with attempts at fixing AI.
I love rF2 yes they improved certain areas but in others they actually made it worse.
I driven my favourite F3 on my best layouts at 120% AI and had some great races up to 2 hours with 4x rubber and gas and 3 / 4 pitstops but now that is next to impossible.
The lift and coast supposed to fix the AI stuttering has just generated more problems with cars over running corners.

But most expect all this is fixable instead of understanding long ago what gmotor was and is.
It's a laugh. I think most delude themselves gmotor1.0 / 2.0 is any better then 2.5.
I also don't think that many understand what losing ISI guru meant.
Remember these sims only got 1 update f they were lucky. rFactor was the first I remember ever got more but that was because it was released beta online.
I would say the code was not touched again by that stage he would have been on holidays. lol ( he worked 2 years 24/7 )

Having said all that when someone makes a engine that is more dynamic then gmotor's big toe wake me up.

I love gmotor by far my favourite sims but it's really time to wake up and smell the roses.

Every engine is the same they all have their quirks so to me for last 20 years it's all too much like......

 

[v4v474]

rf2 ai test (trackcam)

Watch "rf2 ai test (trackcam)" on Streamable.

streamable.com

rf2 ai test

Watch "rf2 ai test" on Streamable.

streamable.com

 

[v4v474]

The AI is receiving significant improvements. It's a work in progress, but many traditional quirks have been eliminated:
- they don't get stuck behind other cars;
- they slipstream;
- they rejoin more carefully;
- they are starting to line up properly behind the pace car;
- etc.
Of course, aside from the fine tuning, there will be cars / mods which AI has to be retuned.