UFO Discussion

[Hampus Andersson]

What is proof to you? Piece of a saucer or an alien?

 

[Tony Holder]

We can't be alone.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

We can't be alone.

It´s a mathematical certainty. 100% chance of life elsewhere in the universe.

 

[Tony Holder]

You may laugh, or not....but when I was 7 I saw something in the night sky which I can't explain to this day. It was a plane...shooting star....it was a perfect orange circle in the sky, moving quite fast. It then went. Gone.
I believe.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I made a thread here about a UFO i saw once. Still not sure what it was but i´m pretty sure i´ll never forget it.

 

[Chronus]

@Chronus : You obviously don't know me at all... I've read my share of these reports, those worth reading are very compelling reading and it's so nice to SPECULATE what might happened.

You are slightly amusing.

Here you are claiming to know the difference between fact and faith, claiming to know something about the ever elusive "proof".

Yet, simple test of honest reasoning: read the reports and talk later.

Your answer: " I've read my share of these reports, those worth reading".

So, here you are qualifying people as "nuts" or "semi-religious", and yet you haven't read the reports - only a "share" and only "those worth reading". Tell us then, maybe you're a politician, ever so inclined to read part of what is in front of you, so that way you can always claim from what you have read there is no proof?

Knowing you is not a requirement - you present yourself nicely as someone who makes proclamations without really knowing the subject. Quite a dangerous thing to live by in life.

Again, and hopefully this will sink in through some digital "osmosis" (screen to eye, computer to fingers, who knows how some people's brains operate?):

the only way for you to analyse, understand, or try to disprove the UFO phenomenon, is through science. In particular, Physics, with a wink to astrophysics/cosmology.

Reports have been published on this phenomenon, reports by credible people and government/military organizations. Yet, you dismiss it all with your highly knowledgeable and expert eye - what is more, without even really reading them. Given that, forget about proof, and concentrate on scientific facts.

But then you hit a wall. You have nothing to stand on. How, oh how will you approach this subject through science? How does someone approach a subject through science when that someone's understanding of science is little more than a Discovery Channel program? Big problem.

So, much more comfortable to just sit back in the couch, catch some nice old clichés by debunkers and simply repeat them in a cosy if-then-else fashion:

if they_say_A then I_say_not
else if they_say_B then I_say_impossible

It's actually quite human an approach, simple, saves the neurons some stress and viva la vida. But then again...

--

Tell you what. I have family members and friends who are lawyers, judges and investigators. Whenever they talk about their respective fields, I shut up. Pretending to know something when one doesn't kindda tends to make one look silly...

And that, bud, is what is troubling nowadays: the amount of people willing to post their opinion on things they know little about is staggering. A matter of faith, no doubt.

 

[Tony Holder]

I made a thread here about a UFO i saw once. Still not sure what it was but i´m pretty sure i´ll never forget it.

Indeed.....will be with me for life!

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

@Chronus : Instead of providing some material to convince me, you attack my personality.. Nice trick, to discredit any opposition and claiming their knowledge as worthless.. No, i don't understand everything the science has to offer and neither do you.. Are you a scientist, educated and talented enough to understand it? I don't say you are not because i don't know you, you just might be a professor working on CERN for all i know.

Where do i say that i wan't to disprove UFOs? I think i've already stated that it is my belief that there is intelligent life out there and i consider them taking some kind of contact or visiting us possible. But. There still ain't no proof of it ever happen. And don't think i will read everything ever written to find one line of truth, that is your job. I still challenge you to present one credible proven fact that UFOs are controlled by intelligent beings.

Don't you think that such a news would be big enough for people to do die for just in order to publish the findings? If id have the evidence in front of me, it would take me full hour to publish my findings in such away that it is never going to be erased from public knowledge, even if it kills me. FFS, my legend would live forever, it would be THE thing that defines my existence, which, to this day, has been with out real direction... I'm really making the claim that so huge secret can't stay hidden and why t hasn't been revealed yet? Take this into calculations: we are all wrong. That is a possibility. Life could be just an illusion or something we simply can not understand. People have been wondering about it for millenia after millenia.

What is bothering me here is the attitude you believers take on us non-believers (like i said, i really belong to the believers..) is that we are wrong, we are stupid, why can't we understand that you hold the only truth, there is no other truth, all counter arguments are invalid. And in top of this you put the burden of proof in my responsibility. In true scientific approach, it is the one who makes the claim tho provide proof. I could say that there is faster than light particles and then it would be you who would be studying for the rest of your life that they don't exist.. Mate, it doesn't work that way, i challenge you to disprove god. I'm not religious, i'm actually agnostic since i have never found any proof that god exist nor have i found any real evidence that states that god does not exist. There are million things i can send you to chase if i use the same tactic: prove that this thing does not exist. Prove to me that there isn't gas based intelligent lifeforms in Jupiter.. Prove to me that there isn't a guy called Eric Jukka Mahalave in Zambia. Did you meet everyone in Zambia and did you remember to look everywhere at the same time (just in case he turns out somewhere you already looked..).. it really doesn't matter that i just invented the poor sod, he might exist so you have to disprove his existence while i'm free of poking holes in your theory and methods.

You see, disproving something is a lot harder than proofing, that's why the burden pf proof lies on your shoulder, not mine. The whole point of your "counter argument" was to veer off course, discredit me because of something i haven't read instead of providing those documents. You accuse me of not finding out everything there is to know about the subject and thus i'm not valid of stating my opinion.. What if everry starts to act like that? "You haven't driven all roads in the world and driven all vehicles, thus you can not drive your car" This all goes back to that nice side step from well proven protocol of "you make the claim, you present evidence" And before you do, let me burst out laughing.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

You think in a very strange way.

If let´s say you find a saucer in your backyard. First thing you REALLY will do is call the police.
Perhaps take some pictures but apart from that you will be in serious chock and when **** happens that is outside the norm, you call the police.

- I got a saucer in my backyard
- ok re-connect you to the appropriate agency

Officials and military come to your house, take the saucer with them then tell you to shut up and then tell you that what you saw should never be spoken of again.

So you sit there completely baffled at what happened, the neighborhood saw the craft as well, you all know what you saw and you got your 5-6 pictures of it.

These pictures is then posted on forums, people like yourself will then dismiss them as fake, or no proof.
TV stations then call you and your neighbors to tell about the experience, this is then showed on Discovery.
people like you watch it and think my god what a pair of morons thinking saucers fly around and crash in backyards, i need proof got dammit.

So what isn´t proof and what is, will change dramatically depending on which side you are on.
If you took pictures of a real saucer you would consider those pictures evidence.

But instead all you will hear is "dummy, why did you not take a piece of the saucer or took a piece of the alien" like some retarded forum user.

 

[Tony Holder]

Is the Earth flat or a sphere? Have you seen it from space? You can't prove if or disprove it as you have not witnessed it. All you know is what the 'media' have told you - who have been informed by 'certain' government bodies.....

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Earth shape can be calculated without ever ascending higher than a kitchen chair. One needs to then travel some distances or rely on a trusted friend to make the measurements for you, does that disqualify me since i didn't do it all by myself? What constitutes as main stream media? If i follow independent news sources that are still being conducted in full journalistic manner, avoiding scandalism, who are controlling them what to say? Do you think that if hundreds of journalists and scientists and police, military and goverment personnel have been persuaded to stay shut up while their sitting on a revolutionary stuff, things that will change everything and you get to name it? Everybody is just scared except those who nobody takes seriously? Don't you think there is a reason that majority of people think like i do..

You can write a 10000 words in the next post but you can't convince me to believe what you do nor can i, or have a right to convince you otherwise. The arguments and tactics used are exactly the same as religious nuts use. BTW, i consider religious atheist nuts too and basically everyone who is taking them selves too seriously...

I can easily picture the largest newscorps being manipulated for what ever use those who have power are willing to promote or confuse (look, i have zero proof and i think you agree...). But trying to convince me that there is nobody in the world willing to talk, nobody brave enough to present the evidence that is so insurmountable as you state.. In a real world human beings ego can be trusted.. Discovering an UFO in your backyard mean millions of euros in your pocket, bookdeals, movies, interviews, talk shows, the whole shebang. But no, they are blackmailed all to stay away from public eye or framed to look like nutcases.

Something is going on, what it it, nobody has a clue. Those UFOs you see, what is to say that it is an illusion too, a candid camera tv show, a reality hell for aliens to enjoy while gurgling on their gargleblasters... But are you really going to say that you know what is going on? If you do, please tell the rest of us because we are dying to find out.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Couple of definitions.. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proof
Proof:
- The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
- Any evidence that establishes or helps to establish the truth, validity, quality, etc., of something

Evidence:
1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.


So far a lot of evidence but no real proof have been found thus it's not really an evidence, is it? It's phenomenon, an event of unknown origins, that is a fact. But still, a lot of loud noise, nothing that would require anykind of adjustment to my current opinion, just words about words. Very soon you start pick on my grammar and it all ends you calling me nazi. But i have nothing better to do, let's continue.this...

 

[Chronus]

@Chronus : Instead of providing some material to convince me, you attack my personality..

No, not attacking you or your personality. But I am targeting your failed arguments. And definitely, I am targeting your stance on this.

Yet again, with people who insult or attack others (calling people nuts this and nuts that), they parrot something they read or overheard. Then, when called on it, they play the victims. Finally, they run around in circles, pretending they're offering arguments and yet again going back to the same line of reasoning - all the while pretending others haven't said something of relevance.

Nice trick, to discredit any opposition and claiming their knowledge as worthless..

Not, that would be you. That was what you do when you judge people who believe in UFOs, when you qualify them as "nuts" or "semi-religious".

Some people firmly believe in UFOs. Some people have risked their careers and lives over this. I know better than to call them names - as you have been doing.

No, i don't understand everything the science has to offer and neither do you..

No one said anything about "everything science has to offer".

As you seem so keen to not even bothering what people post, I understand arguing the fine points of this (which, with some people, is an interesting topic) with you is pointless.

Re-read what I wrote. Don't pre-interpret what I wrote, read it first, then talk.

Are you a scientist, educated and talented enough to understand it?

Some people right here know what I do for a living, my career and area of academic studies. What I am is of no relevance to you.

you just might be a professor working on CERN for all i know.

You still miss the point. You don't need to be Physicist, or a Chemist, or a aerospace engineer in order to research and study science - or UFOs. Certainly, you don't need to be a professor at CERN to have a solid view on these subjects.

But...failing to go through all reports provided by (again) government/military/politicians, you can (should) only resort to science. You don't need to understand the WHOLE BUILDING OF SCIENCE, just the part that might help prove or disprove the extraterrestrial origin of these so called UFOs. Do you believe you need to be a biologist to understand how the Space Shuttle operates?

There still ain't no proof of it ever happen. And don't think i will read everything ever written to find one line of truth, that is your job.

No, wrong.

Let us dissect your arguments:
- "ain't no proof": what is proof to you? A flying saucer? Or some alien corpse? Or videos shot by infra-red cameras on combat jets? Or photos taken by navy officers on duty? Or recordings from flight control towers? Or radar data and recordings provided by airports and the military? Or reports by scientists and military people who have analysed the existing documents, from different governments (from Brasil to Europe)?

- "And don't think i will read everything ever written to find one line of truth": right here is your problem.

You already know beforehand (wow...) what the truth is and where to find it. You already know beforehand you will not find one line of truth. You proclaim UFOs do not exist, you refuse to research and read what people offer as hard solid facts, and bobsyouruncle the burden of proof is upon others. You refuse to think, you refuse to study, you refuse to read and learn, you also proclaim your universal truths, BUT IT IS UP TO OTHER TO CONTRADICT YOU or present proof. Unbelievably contorted reasoning. What's next? Should people present evident the way you "like", you will refute it with some odd, lame excuse.

My job is to tell you and the likes of you: unless you possess all the facts, you should not utter a word against those that believe in UFOs. Least of all call them names.

Because, in the end, if people want to talk out of their butts and elbows without using science or analysing documents and evidence (whatever it may be), it is always going to be your "faith" (UFOs aren't real) versus believers "faith" (UFOs exist).

That is the big difference between my perspective and yours. I read the claims, read the documents, watch the documentaries, and use Physics&Math to know what is possible and what is not. I do not start the process with a preconceived notion that these things aren't possible - good science is not like that, but above all true honesty is not like that.

I still challenge you to present one credible proven fact that UFOs are controlled by intelligent beings.

I don't care about your challenges.

But I offer you one: I challenge you to stop calling UFO believers "nuts".

If you truly want to be honest, be open, remain open, you cannot jump to conclusions before you have the facts.

What is bothering me here is the attitude you believers take on us non-believers (like i said, i really belong to the believers..) is that we are wrong, we are stupid, why can't we understand that you hold the only truth, there is no other truth, all counter arguments are invalid.

First of all, bud, I am not a "believer".

I am, however, honest about this whole matter: some sightings are not explainable by our science and technology. That alone makes me take a step back and think there is a possibility it is all real. So, instead of shutting down the possibilities, I remain open to them. Call it moral duty: it should be our moral duty to treat this subject carefully and really try to scientifically understand them, instead of making proclamations out of one's hat.

As for the attitude, look at yours: no one called you stupid or "nuts", and yet you called UFO believers that.

And in top of this you put the burden of proof in my responsibility.

Ridiculous. I saw no one doing that. You complain about something nobody did.

Your burden should be to remain open and avoid making proclamations with zero knowledge of the subject.

In true scientific approach, it is the one who makes the claim tho provide proof.

You have shown again and again you know nothing of what the Scientific method is all about.

You have also shown you don't know enough about science to even be talking about it. So why do you?

I could say that there is faster than light particles and then it would be you who would be studying for the rest of your life that they don't exist..

Oh boy...

i challenge you to disprove god. I'm not religious, i'm actually agnostic since i have never found any proof that god exist nor have i found any real evidence that states that god does not exist. There are million things i can send you to chase if i use the same tactic: prove that this thing does not exist. Prove to me that there isn't gas based intelligent lifeforms in Jupiter..

Oh boy...

Very soon you start pick on my grammar and it all ends you calling me nazi.

You gotta be kidding...

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

I just watched video that says government is staging an alien attack during the closing ceremonies in London.. It must be true, i have evidence, that guy said so in the video..

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I think we have plenty of evidence. This many witnesses would enable us to beat every court created by man.
That´s the problem... there is people saying they will testify in front of congress but what happens? Congress ignores them...

Mexico and Canada are two countries i know of that has officially said that they want USA to disclose the UFO subject.
Former prime minister in Canada used words as "Alien-technology".

 

[Chronus]

Mexico and Canada?

Let us add Brasil, Russia, Belgium, France and the UK.

We don't know what is going on, but more and more people are asking the right questions (the Cometa Report is very impressive and made many dig deeper).

Which is the only way to get at the truth.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

BUDAPEST, Hungary - A military pilot recorded a spectacular video of a silver disk object on September 29, 2001. The craft was flying to his left side and then moved very fast past him in the clouds as can be seen in the video.

"I was on a flight over Budapest, Hungary," said the pilot, who has requested that his name be withheld until the official inquiry by the Hungarian Ministry of Defence is complete.

"To my left I saw a bright metal aircraft that was the shape of a perfect disk. I was careful to film the object, not to try and chase it since it I could not match its speed. As I was flying a reconnaisance aircraft, I got the idea to film it and used our equipment."

Officials at the Ministry of Defence would not answer questions about the video when asked and warned that officially they have no comment. Despite the denial, when informed of the pilot's name, they did acknowledge that the he was a real air force pilot and that it was true that he flew photo reconnaisance airplanes.

The pilot considers the video he made to be his property and not the Hungarian governments as he was flying the plane while not on duty and was transporting it as a favor to save the government money. He has now hired an attorney and wants the video to be released to the public. He hopes the release of a few frames will make this happen.

[from Hungarian press news article, translated into English]
http://rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm

 

[Chronus]

Many of us saw in the news the weird events in Belgium.

Many of us saw in the news the footage released by the mexican military of pursuits to unidentified objects flying in formation and at speeds that no US or European fighter jet is capable of.

Funny thing is, the more footage is released and shown in news channels, the more interviews to witnesses (civil and military pilots and flight controllers) are shown, the more these "pseudo-skeptics" cry out lout that EVERYTHING IS FAKED.

And these deniers do not stop to think for a minute: "wow, am I saying that airforces from Mexico, Iran, Germany, Belgium, UK are fabricating these footages? Am I saying that the policemen and air traffic controllers from many countries in Europe are faking evidence? Am I saying that a former US Governor and thousands of its constituents are lying about what happened over Phoenix? Then, everyone is lying. A global conspiracy!!!"

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Let us dissect your arguments:
- "ain't no proof": what is proof to you? A flying saucer? Or some alien corpse? Or videos shot by infra-red cameras on combat jets? Or photos taken by navy officers on duty? Or recordings from flight control towers? Or radar data and recordings provided by airports and the military? Or reports by scientists and military people who have analysed the existing documents, from different governments (from Brasil to Europe)?

Nope, none of those are proof. They are possible explanations for unknown event that has been documented.


There was a long piece here telling how i refuse to accept the facts because i have sceptic attitude already.. Didn't it occur to you that i didn't have that and i have come to that occlusion everytime. I'm not saying it's all a lie. I have NO PROOF of saying it's all a lie. I think you never got the message that we are on the same side, i think there is something going on but at least i don't claim to know the thruth

My job is to tell you and the likes of you: unless you possess all the facts, you should not utter a word against those that believe in UFOs. Least of all call them names.

So before i have read everything i can't say anything and only those who know everything can speak about the Holy Subject. Sounds like dark ages to me. Do you possess all the facts? How do i know that? We all have to form a picture from incomplete fragments and it sure does come out differently.

Because, in the end, if people want to talk out of their butts and elbows without using science or analysing documents and evidence (whatever it may be), it is always going to be your "faith" (UFOs aren't real) versus believers "faith" (UFOs exist).

I haven't use science and neither have you so far.

That is the big difference between my perspective and yours. I read the claims, read the documents, watch the documentaries, and use Physics&Math to know what is possible and what is not. I do not start the process with a preconceived notion that these things aren't possible - good science is not like that, but above all true honesty is not like that.

And i don't know? The examples i used were only that, examples of calims that i can make where you have really no way of disroving them.They are also examples where i can't prove the claim. Before we have tangible, real evidence, everything is speculation and theories.

First of all, bud, I am not a "believer".

I am, however, honest about this whole matter: some sightings are not explainable by our science and technology. That alone makes me take a step back and think there is a possibility it is all real. So, instead of shutting down the possibilities, I remain open to them. Call it moral duty: it should be our moral duty to treat this subject carefully and really try to scientifically understand them, instead of making proclamations out of one's hat.

As for the attitude, look at yours: no one call you stupid or "nuts", and yet you called UFO believers that.

So your problem was the word "nut". I'm sorry to offend you but it's just too easy...The word "nerd" and "geek" meant something totally else but i'm proud to call myself a geek and a nerd.

And here has come the real shocker: we do think the same. That part could've been from my head. All the time you thought that i'm in the opposition but i'm not. I'm in the opposition of how the active members of that lunatic community handle this is delaying the real research for decades. That's why i call UFO believers nuts because they are digging their own graves, making things incredibly tough on any one who would like to investigate the matter. Anybody who makes his goal harder, is an idiot (unless it's some sort of Hinduist experiment of reaching nirvana thru pain..) aka nuts.

Your burden should be to remain open and avoid making proclamations with zero knowledge of the subject.

Again, really demeaning to say i have zero knowledge. How do you know that?

You have shown again and again you know nothing of what the Scientific method is all about.

You have also shown you don't know enough about science to even be talking about it. So why do you?

WIKI:

To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning

Ok, what did i do wrong? Was it my question of backing up your claims with proof? Or is it just common sense to ask for evidence for a revolutionary idea? What exactly is not scientific, please show me. I could say the same but i certainly don't have anything to back my accusation. I can still accuse, nothing to stop me doing it, i just have nothing to base my idea on.

So all this time we are thinking the same, have the same beliefs but mine are just wrong for some reason.. Don't take things so seriously, it's only life.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

I don't think they all fake them and i certainly don't believe in global conspiracy covering aliens. Just because we see something in radar, on video or with our own eyes don't mean that it's really there... The possibilities are endless and unknown. I keep my options open