The Great Motion-Haptics Debate

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

LOL! There is no spider's kiss here.

What's funny about that statement is that if you have your tactile systems setup right, you have an abusive amount of tactile energy on hand that you have to dial back quite a bit. I tend to play with a specific effect up a bit while I work it out. Once I have it behaving as I like, then I drop it back down so it becomes part of an immersive symphony that helps you feel what the car is doing, but isn't beating you up.

In order to have an abusive amount of power on hand, you need powerful transducers, powerful amplifiers and good isolation so the transducers are only putting energy into your contact areas, or your seat and pedal deck and not trying to move the whole chassis. The smaller isolated areas allow you to feel a larger frequency range.

Exactly why I showed that mouth haptic example... smaller transducers and highly targeted areas...

You don't need to shake yourself or your rig to death


Even on our motion systems on the rigs, we keep fail safes enabled to catch unnecessary shaking if you get off the track or crash by accident (spike filter)...

You wouldn't want to crash in real life as well... lol

 

[NetLawMan]

Ok. Back on track . A little further up, I created a list of effects/experiences, and the type of system I found delivered them the best. I think it’s helpful for people to have an idea of the types of systems that are out there when then are building their rig. I am curious as to other people’s thoughts! For convenience, below is a copy of my list:


Turning/Lateral gforces: gseat/belt, then motion (roll)

Up/down movements: motion (heave)

Braking (inc G-force): gseat/belt, then motion (pitch)

Acceleration (inc G-force): gseat/belt, then motion (pitch/ surge)

Road surface (micro-movements): motion, although tactile can do a decent job of road texture (but not micro movements caused by the car moving over the road surface).

Road angle (left to right): motion (roll)

Road angle (hills- front to back): motion (pitch)

Bouncing/porpoising/Landing after leaving the ground: motion; then gseat/belt

Engine/RPM: tactile, but some motion systems can do a decent job

ABS/TC: tactile (including pedal mounted agitators)

Gear shift: tactile; motion (pitch/surge)

Brake lockup: ???

Skidding: ???

Traction loss: motion (sway)

Speed: Wind system (SRS/Motionhouse/DIY)

 

[RCHeliguy]

Creating the sensation of speed is something that Tactile can handle very well. I particularly like the exciters on the seat back for this effect. I'm not sure how he did it, but the effect is very good. You can just feel the speed building on long straights. I use a fan for cooling to keep my VR headset from fogging up. Using wind for speed just seems wrong to me.

Traction loss/Skidding comes through multiple feedback areas. FFB if your front end is sliding and the steering gets lighter, hearing the tires skidding. Motion if you have side to side motion. Tactile can also give you a good feeling of the tires skidding. There is more of a side to side rock when recovering when the car hooks back up after sliding. The G-Belt can pull one seatbelt harder in a turn and then loosen that if you are starting to slide and are losing the side to side G-force. A G-Seat can also add to this. Both the G-Seat and G-Belt are able to apply an effect for an indefinite period of time which has some advantages in long corners.

Gear Shift can also come through multiple ways. Tactile handles the thunk and blip well. G-Belt does a great job of helping you to feel the downshifts while braking which can unsettle the car since a lower gear can give you bit of additional braking feel, so it can tighten just a bit more in impulses as you downshift. A surge system can help you feel a bit of a jerk in a similar why to the G-Belt. A motion system can slightly tilt the car fore/aft during the shift as well. All of these can be used together.

ABS - can come through a pedal deck mounted tactile system, or through an exciter directly mounted to the brake pedal for a pulsing feel. It can also come through a surge system, seat belt tightening and loosening, or up/down motions. I think many prefer the pulsing directly on the pedal.

Bouncing/porpoising/Landing - That is motion all the way. Heave is best for bouncing. When landing from going airborne nothing beats being suddenly pitched forward and jerked back.

Road Angle can be done with motion, or pressure like a G-Seat, or both together.

Road surface depends. Tactile does great rumble strips and expansion joints were you actually feel them in front and then back. It can also create a good road surface feeling. I think fine detail is easier to put directly into the seat and pedal deck than the whole chassis, however I think this is something that may be closer to a draw depending on the road surface and how well each is driven through software and profiles. The limitation will be the weakest link.

Turning forces are where Pressure systems shine. A G-Seat would be tops, G-Belt helpful and a little motion to finish it off.

The Engine is an area where tactile wins hands down. The multilayer effects with various harmonics driving different types of transducers creates an incredibly realistic engine feel that can be mapped to any type of engine. It is is much better not to have to shake your entire rig to get this effect. None of the other devices can do engines like tactile.

 

[blekenbleu]

Brake lockup: ???

An exciter on the brake pedal attempts to simulate rotor runout and pavement rumble
at light to moderate braking, then going dead when brakes lock.
This approximates actual brake pedal behavior without power assist or ABS,
which I find startling/distracting.

Skidding: ???

Squeal->moan->judder by 4 pucks in a seat cushion.
This is arguably unrealistically specific, compared to real track driving feedback, but easily adapted to.

Traction loss: motion (sway)

Steering FFB handles this well for front wheel drive.
A dedicated rear lateral motion actuator seems nearly ideal for rear drive traction loss,
but a shaker applying lateral haptics at the seat back is another substitution easily adapted to.

For those who have not already, consider watching Niels Heusinkveld's Motion AGAINST Motion,
which IMO makes valid criticisms of many motion cues.
For those who never drive on track,
it is seemingly possible to learn to accept wrong inertial cues,
but G-seat and G-belt are IMO better alternatives
for much of what many seemingly expect from pitch and sway.

 

[NetLawMan]

I will be installing gseat/Gbelt later today. To that end, I see a lot of motion systems with surge, that throw you back when you hit the accelerator, and push you forward when you brake. I assume the intent is to replicate GeForce. What I see on YouTube seems extreme and a little unrealistic .

For anyone who has tried surge and a gseat/belt, which does a better job in these two circumstances?

PS - I hope you say gseat/belt

PSS - I will also be installing pedal exciters from Sim3D in the UK on my pedals this weekend and using them for ABS and TC.

 

[NetLawMan]

An exciter on the brake pedal attempts to simulate rotor runout and pavement rumble
at light to moderate braking, then going dead when brakes lock.
This approximates actual brake pedal behavior without power assist or ABS,
which I find startling/distracting.


Squeal->moan->judder by 4 pucks in a seat cushion.
This is arguably unrealistically specific, compared to real track driving feedback, but easily adapted to.


Steering FFB handles this well for front wheel drive.
A dedicated rear lateral motion actuator seems nearly ideal for rear drive traction loss,
but a shaker applying lateral haptics at the seat back is another substitution easily adapted to.

For those who have not already, consider watching Niels Heusinkveld's Motion AGAINST Motion,
which IMO makes valid criticisms of many motion cues.
For those who never drive on track,
it is seemingly possible to learn to accept wrong inertial cues,
but G-seat and G-belt are IMO better alternatives
for much of what many seemingly expect from pitch and sway.

Yeah. I have seen that video. While I do think the video is highly highly opinionated, I agree with you that it seems the better solution is a mixed system, and for me, that gseat/belt plus motion plus haptics combined give an advantage.

Also, thanks for raising the point about wheel FFB. I agree it is very helpful in a number of ways, including as you say, for cueing traction loss.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Also, thanks for raising the point about wheel FFB. I agree it is very helpful in a number of ways, including as you say, for cueing traction loss.

This point is critical. There are numerous ways to give you feeling in a rig. Whatever you are using, they all need to mesh well to reinforce each other.

In addition the feeling they give is cumulative if they are working well together.

I would also say that VR is an amplifier of motion and tactile. VR effectively puts you deeper into your environment, and in my experience it amplifies your perception of tactile and motion. However, I haven't felt that it amplifies FFB.

If you can see the real world around you the motion queues and tactile queues do not feel as strong.

For motion, your brain is compensating by taking your real world into account lessening the impact.

For tactile, I believe the effect is two fold. First you are less immersed. Second you can hear the transducers more. I think that comes into play for actuator noise as well.

So VR is both putting your deeper in and isolating you from the real world and the distractions of transducer and actuator noises so everything works better.

 

[RCHeliguy]

OK, I need to add to that.

None of these devices can compensate for a sim title having bad physics and poor telemetry.
It doesn't matter how much money you spent or how well these devices are setup. This is a "Garbage In : Garbage Out" situation.

I've very recently been having my eyes opened by Richard Burns Rally. I had no idea what I was missing until I experienced it. I've heard people say it was very good and I should try it for years. I heard the physics were good and realistic and read comments by people saying how Dirt Rally was unrealistic.

I loved Dirt Rally 1.0 and 2.0, but I may never be able to play either again.

RBR is so well connected. It's not just the physics. The FFB is EXCELLENT, the clutch feel is EXCELLENT, the tactile is excellent. My G-Belt feel is excellent and my motion (I'm still dialing in) but it is also working well. This title is obviously providing what feels like correct information.

Disclaimer: This is an older title. I'm using the RBRPro manager to handle all the packages, plugins and mods needed to make a 2006 title worth playing in 2022. Some of the setup did seem a bit clunky and the graphics are not amazing.

 

[Mr Latte]

Not sure what your issue is. You seem determined to derail every thread by opposing and challenging anyone who has not come to your same conclusion. I will reiterate what I said above:

“my preference is a “well-balanced” combination of different systems (motion/g-force/basic haptics/wind/soundtrack). After experimentation, I decided that engine sounds and corresponding vibrations (including RPM and gearshift) are important baseline elements that I want to be in the background enough to avoid muddying the other experiences which are more important to me. To that effect, I am fine with a well-done canned gearshift effect, and leveraging a full frequency transducer such as the Clarke synthesis transducer attached to the seat and driven off the soundtrack for creating engine sounds and corresponding vibrations.”

”I fully respect the notion of someone who wants to replicate the sound of a particular engine. That is cool. I also think though, that requires a combination of a really good engine sound plus underlying vibration or haptics to support it. I stated in my last post, for me using a full range transducer gives me the underlying vibration I need so long as the title has put effort into having an accurate engine sounds . I also get it that some people are able to achieve this with a sophisticated haptic transducer installation.”

Any possibility of a cease and desist on your part, when it comes to being so aggressive with anyone who doesn’t “Drink The Kool-Aid”, or should I say “Drink the Latte”

Firstly I am not being aggressive, I highlighted what you said as in your own words you are still it seems focused on tactile being treated like a competing thing to motion.

You won't show the effects and settings your own motion system has, after several times of being asked. So that is just being quite ignorant and the reason I can only assume you likely won't do that or cover such in detail is you are being defensive and know the limitations that motion haptics have.

You also ignored the request to help towards comparing what different motion systems offer in haptics. Nothing to do with the inner hardware or technical aspects but simply what effects they bring, what game support. Does that vary?

Content like a comparison chart could be done, that might help spur comments from other owners on what effects for them are a real addition to the immersion or what effects are limited or less enjoyed. Things like that would be interesting to people seeking to buy into some form of motion system, to at least learn more about what haptics the different solutions offer.

I don't think you respect very much any of the efforts that others or myself are seeking to bring with tactile immersion and build an arrangement of effects that go far beyond the norm. You created this thread to have a "debate" so from the very beginning I made my own position quite clear in my response to Henk. Do you remember what that was?

I raised this point in the previous thread as well....
Would you or others, please stop trying to look at tactile from the perspective of it being a Vs motion thing. Videos like Karls that state sim motion haptics can replace standard tactile. Oh really......

Tactile can be very immersive on its own yes of course. From what I read, your own experience or approach with it in what you describe and how you apply your own tactile. Not being smart or cheeky here but it, is not even close to the potential that can be achieved.

What you don't seem that interested in, is asking how can we combine tactile creatively to any specific effects to perhaps improve the combined immersion possible with motion and all our senses. It is not just, all about engines either and I don't think you are in the best position to say what can or can't be done with tactile as I do not know how much you have experimented with it or regards new approaches with effects creation?

Is that a fair comment?

Instead, if you would take note, there are a growing number of people and a trend is building that lots of motion owners, with various motion systems, are seeking much-improved haptics to what their motion systems already offer.

So far, looking at what has been presented on the show floor at Sim Expo, from recent years. Many leading brands showcase and compete in marketing their motion systems. No company has a combined high-performance motion/tactile solution with specially crafted effects. Certainly not to the level I believe is possible or work to achieve and I am not the only one seeking to build better tactile effects. Others are doing their own things as well with custom-created effects using Simhub.

So why are none of the motion companies offering a combined motion/tactile solution?

Is it probably because for many motion companies, they are in the business of selling motion hardware and making a good profit from such. Seeking to offer potential customers an additional or advanced tactile solution that will cost less. Even if such might be enjoyed for what it brings in immersion. It is not something they will profit anywhere near as much from and could potentially lose sales if some folk decided to buy into the tactile first over motion. So I think for some commercial interests are a factor.

After being quite static since 2012 with Simvibe, which had and still has many issues or drawbacks. What advances have we really seen in tactile immersion that break new ground or bring things to another level?

Simhub with Shake it opened a new door in what the potential and possibilities with "tactile immersion" are...

So I put to you, the "sim community" is quite hungry for advances in tactile to combine with whatever motion system, belts or G seats they own or are considering buying. I don't care if people buy into motion before having a more serious tactile solution, it's their choice but you will find, that several motion owners will say something similar to what Frank said. You will find that not all real race drivers enjoy full-motion either and there are alternative views.

As a debate, maybe you should listen to more people's own feedback before trying to determine how/what motion can do and tactile can do.

 

[NetLawMan]

Hi Latte,
Not sure what else I can state. Nevertheless, one last time:

-I own a dbox gen 3 (had gen 1)

- it is a 4 actuator system 1.5 inches with haptics up to about 100 hz or so)

- the games I use with it are listed above

-my thoughts on what effects I use it for are provided above

-my thoughts on how it integrated into a combination system are listed above

-my conclusion that I would rather have my various systems mimic rather than a single system substitute for real world experiences is stated above

- I indicate where I feel other systems are a better match for certain effects above

-I have stated that I like leveraging the soundtrack and a Clark transducer for engine and other sounds

-I have stated that because of my combination of systems, I don’t need “holy grail” engine, gear shift, and other sounds from a telemetry driven transducer


Other people have shared their experiences…..their PERSONAL experiences, above. It has been a great exchange. If you want to participate fine, but please don’t continue to drag this thread down. No one here, including me, has to prove anything to you. And…..you have a Tactile Immersion thread you can use to “scientifically prove” that it is your way or the highway.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Trying to stay on the outside looking in for the last two posts.

My thoughts are:
1. It's easy to start reading negative intent into what someone is posting once you've taken opposite sides on a debate that you feel passionate about. Others may not see things as quite so pointed.
2. There is no rule that someone has to answer every question you ask or that they are evil or disrespectful if they don't.
3. There is ABSOLUTELY no way to get everyone to have the same priorities. It just won't happen.

As a point of reference. I personally had no idea how good tactile could be until the last maybe 6-8 months of my over 3 years building my rig and I wrote it off until I had pretty well updated every other part of my rig first. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, but I didn't take it "seriously" until I got a taste of what it could be.

So I can't be mad at someone who "hasn't seen the light" so to speak and I think there is a leap of faith necessary before people are ready to jump into this. It is unreasonable to think that someone will change their mind just because you have a rational argument for something.

The fact is that people look at big pieces of hardware as having a "Wow" factor. Motion systems have that, which is why I've seen monster motion systems equiped with Thrustmaster controls on them. It doesn't makes sense to many, but someone saw that is being their "Important" thing. People also don't want to believe something is better than what they have. It's human nature.

 

[Beef36]

D-Box have released Gen 5 of their motion platform.

It includes:

• Haptics for all games, not just those that integrate with the D-Box Software Development Kit (SDK),
• Movies support; and
• Audio mode that works for all entertainment

I'm really hoping for D-Box motion for all movies, not just those encoded by D-Box.

While still expensive, the added benefit is the lower cost.

This D-Box Gen 5 is about half what it cost 5 years ago, and probably another 30% less than the same system cost 7 years ago!

 

[NetLawMan]

D-Box have released Gen 5 of their motion platform.

It includes:

• Haptics for all games, not just those that integrate with the D-Box Software Development Kit (SDK),
• Movies support; and
• Audio mode that works for all entertainment

I'm really hoping for D-Box motion for all movies, not just those encoded by D-Box.

While still expensive, the added benefit is the lower cost.

This D-Box Gen 5 is about half what it cost 5 years ago, and probably another 30% less than the same system cost 7 years ago!

My understanding is that other than no longer having the big controller boxes, there isn't much that is new with gen 5. The features mentioned above came to the prior generation in a recent SW update, and I haven't experienced any difference in my d-box since the update . They don't seem to be focusing much on SIM racing based on their corporate news over the past year and a half. I still love my system, but I think there are a few other systems that are pushing the boundaries (note I am not talking about the direct-from-factory or DIY systems, but the systems where there are investing and developing sophisticated SW and algorithms.

 

[NetLawMan]

D-Box have released Gen 5 of their motion platform.

It includes:

• Haptics for all games, not just those that integrate with the D-Box Software Development Kit (SDK),
• Movies support; and
• Audio mode that works for all entertainment

I'm really hoping for D-Box motion for all movies, not just those encoded by D-Box.

While still expensive, the added benefit is the lower cost.

This D-Box Gen 5 is about half what it cost 5 years ago, and probably another 30% less than the same system cost 7 years ago!

What is the pricing for this new gen?

 

[Beef36]

What is the pricing for this new gen?

As I understand it, Gen 5 4250i (1.5") is around USD 7,100.

However I'm not a D-Box reseller. I'm just a consumer, so I may be wrong here...

 

[Beef36]

My understanding is that other than no longer having the big controller boxes, there isn't much that is new with gen 5. The features mentioned above came to the prior generation in a recent SW update, and I haven't experienced any difference in my d-box since the update . They don't seem to be focusing much on SIM racing based on their corporate news over the past year and a half. I still love my system, but I think there are a few other systems that are pushing the boundaries (note I am not talking about the direct-from-factory or DIY systems, but the systems where there are investing and developing sophisticated SW and algorithms.

You are probably correct. If you have D-Box Gen 1, 2 or 3 already, then there probably isn't much of an upgrade here. I think than main attraction is the lower price for new buyers

And I also think G1 to 3 look better aesthetically than G5. The G5 actuators looks really big on sim rigs, because it moves the technology that usually sat in those big ACM controller boxes onto the actuators, whereas for older D-Box systems, we can hide the ACMs within the sim rig, and thus the older actuators look more streamlined....

 

[No Depth]

So I was able to secure a G5 about a month ago and have been using it pre-launch. Price was $7,499 USD(plus an extra couple hundred for brackets that fit a P1-X, but this will vary based on reseller).

As far as I’m aware, hardware and tech is identical to G3, other than the control boxes being moved to each actuator. You only have a tiny USB box that all four actuators feed into, outside of the power cables, which each pair only requires a single plug(so three plugs for four actuators+the usb box). So lots of cables, but easy to feed and tie down in the rig without anything but the haptic usb box to place somewhere. (It did mean I had to get creative about finding a new mount location for my giant Fanatec power brick tho, since the actuators take up about twice the side-rail space as G3’s)

Still doing some tweaks and upgrades so I don’t want to weigh in too heavily yet on this ‘debate’. My early thoughts as I am still tweaking is that the haptics are very impressive from the D-box(assuming G5 is no different from G1/3) but also using a pair of BK LFE’s, one each under my seat and pedals, there is far more flexibility and tactile feedback from the BKs.

Not that I would expect anyone to at all be unhappy with the D-box alone, but there is no real customization beyond a few effect intensity sliders in D-box for vibrations, though the haptics indeed are powerful and convincing, but with the BK’s you can really dial in some more impressive effects as shared here.

I do find I have to tweak the two systems to find a happy balance. With motion enabled(even with d-box haptics off), it can feel like my BK effects can lose impact or feel compared to D-box off, so playing with the BK effects gain is needed to not feel like one overpowers the other. Even have cases where I push the BKs a bit too much where I can hear audible pangs that I need to dial out. So still tweaking as having only the BKs active means they can be brought way back down to more comfortable gain levels but motion really dampens them more than I expected.

But if you ask me right now? D-Box heave > Transducer effects > D-box haptics.

The lift and tussle you get from hitting curbs or uneven roads is just so immersive and convincing in contrast to anything else(my old NLR v3 also did a good job with that stuff too, even with 2DoF limits). But both transducers and motion in tandem is superior to D-box only with their haptics. Basically in alignment with what other D-box owners seemed to say. I would sacrifice my BK’s before my heave and motion, but I’d take the transducers over the haptics easy.

Oh and using the D-box haptics for non-racing is kind of cool too. Tried out Ori with a gamepad using the test profile and it’s really cool having all the feedback tied to my control actions. Doom Eternal had a test profile with m/kb(will edit to arrange for controller since I can’t use a m/kb from my rig) with neat effects too. Says they are working to add wheel and Hotas support for custom setups for non-supported games. NLR had similar functionality to create custom game profiles, but feel it’s more advanced here.

 

[NetLawMan]

I think you hit the nail on the head. The tweaking of various systems leads to an impressive experience. For me that it tweaking the following to work together and feel natural:
d-box
g-seat
g-belt
motion-house wind
sim3d pedal rumblers (ABS/TC)
Clark Transducer (feed by soundtrack)

When they get out of wack, it is not fun, but when they are tuned, its a blast!

 

[No Depth]

I think you hit the nail on the head. The tweaking of various systems leads to an impressive experience. For me that it tweaking the following to work together and feel natural:
d-box
g-seat
g-belt
motion-house wind
sim3d pedal rumblers (ABS/TC)
Clark Transducer (feed by soundtrack)

When they get out of wack, it is not fun, but when they are tuned, its a blast!

Yea I’m currently deciding between a belt tensioner and TST to add next. Likely the PT Tension R over a G-belt given aesthetics and ease of installation.

Though I am about to upgrade to triples this holiday weekend finally(goodbye LG OLED), so another big purchase is probably a good while out anyway(and D-box/LFE’s/RB isolators set me back enough this year as-is!)

Agreed that fans and sim3D motors are absolutely awesome additions I’ve loved too. Also had to dial down my pedal LFE so it didn’t distract from the sim3d motors as I like their separate queues.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yea I’m currently deciding between a belt tensioner and TST to add next. Likely the PT Tension R over a G-belt given aesthetics and ease of installation.

I think you are making a mistake on the seat belt tensioner.

SRS doesn't have nearly the number of supported effects or the cloud profiles for cars and tracks and I still believe that mounting on the seat back will give you better response. That's been the experience of everyone who has tried mounting both ways. Also the G-Belt's hardware design is more advanced. The PT Tension R is a new product and it still seems very primitive to me. You will also likely want to replace the seatbelt that comes with it and will need to pull it apart to do so.

But it's your rig. Good luck!