Telling how much speed you can carry through a corner

[Ben Goymer]

After a lot of hotlapping in the last couple of weeks I have come to the conclusion that in the race type cars (GT3 etc) I'm loosing a lot of time by simply not carrying enough speed through the corners. I am able to consistently hit apexes etc. but unless I'm following a faster car I'm unaware of quite how much speed I can carry.

Is this simply a case of practising lots and lots and lots?

 

[Chris]

Yes.

 

[Adria Perez]

You can also use the ghost car and the performance delta to see how much time you are gaining/loosing in a per turn basis.

 

[Brian McManus]

Just keep practising.
Push the car around the corners you will feel the car starting to understeer and loose grip.
You will get the feel for it.

The more you practise you will start to learn the track and how much speed you can carry through a corner.

A laptime delta really helps aswell.
you will know if you are gaining or loosing time on the entry and exits of corners

 

[federik21]

I might suggest you corner performance app.
Tells you the enter, apex, and exit speed of every turn, compared to your best.

 

[Ben Goymer]

I might suggest you corner performance app.
Tells you the enter, apex, and exit speed of every turn, compared to your best.

Ooh that sounds handy, I'll try it out.

 

[Ghoults]

One thing to understand is that when turning really small amounts of brake only slow you down. If you turn into fast corners and drag just tiny bit of brake you are not only going through that corner slower but your braking is reducing your total grip of your tires. Without braking your tires would have that little bit extra lateral grip that would allow you to drive through that corner faster.

One tip is to not drag your brakes when turning into corners. The first turn in infineon race track is great example of this. If you watch slower drivers you notice that they do this really long braking into turn 1. They drag the brakes which limits how fast they can enter into the turn which means they also need to start braking earlier. But then look at the pros. They carry a lot more speed and brake later. And they brake harder in straight line. They take full adventage of the tires' lateral grip on entry and when they brake they brake harder in straight line without sacrificing their lateral grip.

One other reason why people do this is because they think they are trail braking. It is not trail braking if you sit long periods of time at 5 or 10% brake when turning into the corner from far away. Trail braking is just the bit after the braking in straight line and the corner entry. As such your braking effort should gradually decrease as you turn more into the corner.

Another reason why people do this is because they are afraid of running wide. Corner entry is probably the most difficult place to gain time because you need to carry more speed and brake less. If you feel you are going too fast touching the brakes even tiny bit can make you feel more in control. This can be especially damaging in high speed corners which usually require very little or none trail braking at all. But if the driver is not fully confident with his entry line he may drag the brakes all the way to the apex which again takes away his ability to carry more speed into the corner because the braking is stealing some of the grip the tires need laterally.

In ac we have the nurdburgring and the turn 3 is good example of this. In that corner you can carry loads more speed into the corner if you don't try to trail brake.

As for driving techniques I'd focus on getting off the brake pedal smoother. Try to get off the brake pedal sooner and smoother. If the rear steps out you need to be smoother. Just like getting on the throttle smoothly on corner exits makes you faster getting off the brakes smoothly makes you faster still.
http://atlasf1.autosport.com/2000/eur/preview/eurlap.jpg

 

[Adria Perez]

One thing to understand is that when turning really small amounts of brake only slow you down.

That is the point of trail braking, as it is allows to hitting apex at the ideal speed despite having a sightly higher corner entry speed, therefore braking while turning allows you to go faster around the lap.

Yes, braking takes away some lateral grip form the tyres. However in a car prone to under-steer, braking while turning (if done properly) adds enough weight in the front tyres to gain more grip by transfer weight than the amount you lose while allowing to brake you a tiny fraction later.

I agree that not all cars and turns (and drivers) are suitable for trail braking but trail-braking is advantageous on numerous occasions. And pros do it (see at 1:30, 2:20, etc.)

 

[Ghoults]

That is the point of trail braking, as it is allows to hitting apex at the ideal speed despite having a sightly higher corner entry speed, therefore braking while turning allows you to go faster around the lap.

Yes, braking takes away some lateral grip form the tyres. However in a car prone to under-steer, braking while turning (if done properly) adds enough weight in the front tyres to gain more grip by transfer weight than the amount you lose while allowing to brake you a tiny fraction later.

I agree that not all cars and turns (and drivers) are suitable for trail braking but trail-braking is advantageous on numerous occasions. And pros do it (see at 1:30, 2:20, etc.)

I'll put it this way. There is good kind of trail braking and there is bad. Let's just assume by trail braking we just mean that you brake while you are turning. Bad trail braking will make you slower on corner entry because you have less lateral grip. It makes you be able to carry less speed into the corners and it will also effect negatively on the car. Good trail braking will allow you to brake later and carry more speed into the corner while getting better rotation.

I never said trail braking is bad. What I said was that dragging the brakes is bad.

 

[Adria Perez]

and what is the difference between dragging the brakes and trail braking?

 

[stadlereric]

I might suggest you corner performance app.
Tells you the enter, apex, and exit speed of every turn, compared to your best.

I use this in conjunction with my ghost lap and the RSR live timing app to know where i stand against my best and THE best. Has helped me significantly lower my times. I suffer the same pitfall as you Ben.

 

[Guy Moulton]

In a GT3 car you won't get the extra speed from carrying IN more speed because the limited df, traction and tires. Getting the power onto the rear axle and getting on the power sooner will net you a lot more performance. With a GT3 car you get lap time not out of the chassis but out of the engine. Use that power.

Delta timing is a HUGE help in shaving off lap time

 

[Rick Malm]

I might suggest to you the corner performance app. .

Sounds very helpful. I just installed it, is there any place the results are logged and saved on disk else one needs to stop before the finish line and review? Right now if I have a good lap, I hit brakes, shift to N and stop before the
finish line and screen capture the corner performance table for the lap and then later I can compare to other laps, same day or other days.

 

[Ghoults]

and what is the difference between dragging the brakes and trail braking?

When you are using so little brake that it makes your entry speed slower and forces you to start braking earlier.

In a GT3 car you won't get the extra speed from carrying IN more speed because the limited df, traction and tires. Getting the power onto the rear axle and getting on the power sooner will net you a lot more performance. With a GT3 car you get lap time not out of the chassis but out of the engine. Use that power.

It is the easiest way to gain the most time to get the corner exits right. So when on a new track simply nailing the corner exits will alone get you pretty close to competitive times. That is true for every single car. But when it comes ultimate lap times and skill all the better drivers are already maximising those corner exits. So the focus moves to improving the braking, corner entry and mid turn.

Getting the braking correct will save you time as you go faster for longer before braking. Getting the mid turn is important for corner exits and for connecting the entry and exit. But corner entry is the last of these spots where you can gain time and here is where the best drivers earn their seat. On a perfect lap the one who maxes out the corner entry has the best time because everyone is already maximising everything else.

If you are driving against gt3 drivers and simply getting good corner exits makes you the fastest only means your opposition is not very good.

 

[Rick Malm]

I use this in conjunction with my ghost lap and the RSR live timing app to know where i stand against my best and THE best. Has helped me significantly lower my times. I suffer the same pitfall as you Ben.

To expert drivers that use Corner Performance App. Request for process.

Can you give me some advice on what you think the best process is with the Corner Performance app? I dont know which of the 4 columns to focus on 1st. What I was doing: My lap times are always 5-10 slower than the best RSR times so I have the total lap time target. Then I tried to find some historic track corner entry times and just start with the 1st corner and check the max straight speed and the apex speed if I can time data to compare to and try to avoid the brake drag. I found some maps of Silverstone corner 1 entry speeds for F1 cars around 288-290 and apex at 133. So Ghoults, you sad that is the least important way is to start trying to be faster in the entry and you say get the exit 1st but what do you compare to? Do you mean focus on the exit speed improvement until one gets it as fast as possible and then work on getting lower distance numbers while keeping the apex and exit speed up or increasing? Exit speed is a function of the entry and apex speeds of course. Maybe its the change in mental focus to exit speeds that works to trigger getting other speeds up and tires working effectivly. I looked at my 1st silverstone corners performance and I am only 274km/h (low), with apex of 193 (high) and exit of 227.and dist of 86 (full corner performance table attached) Maybe you can suggest a better corner. use a Lotus 125 s1 (no setup changes). Or maybe I should use another track for training lie Monaz 66, turns 3,4 or 6 might be better to work on technique or even more turns in Monza 6,7,11? which have entry and apex speeds posted as seen in my attachments). I know there speeds are dependent on alot of car/driver factors but its all I have to go on
and I can at least use ratios of these speed to what I can get for entry speed.

And if any of you could capture a screen shot of "corner performance times" Using the Lotus125 S1 it would really help answer the topic of this thread which is
"Telling how much speed you can carry through a corner"

 

[Rick Malm]

The following is a quote from Ross Bentley (http://www.speedsecrets.com/ross-bentley/)
on how one can use the data from the AC app, Corner Performance. Thanks to Ross for taking the time to provide this input. For those interested in more from Ross, he has a weekly newsletter as well as a series of books (Speed Secrets) which I enjoyed reading and using when I 1st started racing.

"Obviously, you know that, and if every sector is green, then you know it was a good lap. But as you know, it's possible to be so fast in one sector that you're slow in another. Perhaps less so at Silverstone, but there are tracks where that's the case. My point is that you can read too much into one sector on its own - you have to consider the sectors together and as a whole.

Having said that, this is a great tool. My approach to improving would be to identify 2 or 3 approaches/strategies that you think will help you be faster, and test them. For example:

1. Late braking. With late braking, you can do one of two things: You can compress your brake zone (by braking harder and later, but ending your braking at the same place you've always done before - and your corner entry speed would be the same), or you can move your entire brake zone in (begin and end later, braking with the same pressure as you have in the past - this will also result in higher corner entry speed). Set out to do a practice session where you focus on compressing your brake zone; stop and take a good look at the data. Did it result in sector times improvements? Did it result in overall lap time improvement? How much? Then do a session where you don't brake harder, but you simply move your whole brake zone (where you begin and where you end braking) in (which will result in higher corner entry speed). Look at the data. Did it result in sector times improvements? Did it result in overall lap time improvement? How much? Or did any of this improve some part of the corner, but hurt in another (i.e., high Apex speed, matching exit speed, but slower speed at the entry of the next corner - because you were delayed in getting back to full throttle)?
2. Corner exit speed. Do a practice session where you focus on accelerating earlier. Remember, it's usually NOT when you begin accelerating that matters most; what matters most is when you get to and stay committed to full throttle that matters most. So really focus on where you can begin and get to full throttle, and work on making that earlier in the corners. Did it result in sector times improvements? Did it result in overall lap time improvement? How much?
3. Corner minimum speed. Do a practice session where you work on rolling more speed through the corners, raising the "Apex" speed. You can do this by moving your brake zone in later (beginning and ending your braking later), releasing the brakes sooner (but still smoothly), or braking lighter all the way through the brake zone. Did it result in sector times improvements? Did it result in overall lap time improvement? How much?

Take a good look at all that data. There may be corners that benefit from later braking, more than rolling speed through it or committing to full throttle sooner. There may be corners that benefit from focusing on exit speed. There may be corners that benefit from rolling apex speed. In other words, the ultimate lap time may come from some hybrid approach.

A great thing about sim racing is that you can experiment and practice like this - in a very strategic manner. While it can be done on a real track, it's more difficult and costly. It's also more difficult to do this in real time, but with this approach you can stop, look, and analyze the data.

The key to this is taking a strategic approach. It's one thing to just go round and round the circuit, but by breaking it down this way I think you'll make bigger gains is less time. Be strategic about it."

 

[Alan_Bernardo]

Just keep practising.
Push the car around the corners you will feel the car starting to understeer and loose grip.
You will get the feel for it.

The more you practise you will start to learn the track and how much speed you can carry through a corner.

A laptime delta really helps aswell.
you will know if you are gaining or loosing time on the entry and exits of corners

I don't know about this "practice makes perfect" philosophy. Practicing certainly can help but it can also lead to some bad habits that become hard to change.

I think really-- and I'm not the first to say this-- the whole getting faster thing should be broken down into stages instead of trying to do everything all at once. You have a task, you look at it generally, break it down into manageable parts, and then put it back together again.

This is what some say should be the parts as they are broken down:

1. Learn the line
2. Focus on exit speed
3. Focus on entry speed (break-line, etc)
4. Focus on cornering speed

What I do is try and stay focused on each task individually. After learning the line I will move to stage 2. As I'm focusing on stage 2 I'm slightly altering stage 1. Then when I go to stage 3, keeping that stage in mind, I am slightly altering stage 1 and 2, and so on.

Let me just say right off that I am not one of the faster AC racers out there. I don't have the experience or the natural knack that other faster racers may have. And, probably most importantly, my knowledge of set-ups and what can be accomplished with them is that of a child's.

But I do take an analytically look at getting faster, which does take practice, though when I do practice I'm not trying to take everything all in at once. That to me just complicates the whole issue and can lead to some very bad habits.

But really of all of the stages mentioned above, exit speed-- especially the one's leading to a long straight-- is where one can gain the most time. And once the other three stages are honed, exit speed gradually gets faster and faster.

Alan

 

[Chris]

Hi @Ben Goymer ,

If you're still struggling with cornering speeds, or any other SimRacing issues, then you should check out our Premium Driver Academy.

The first session is tonight!
More details are in the link provided.
Don't worry if you cannot attend this one, there will be more academy sessions in the future.

 

[Ben Goymer]

Thanks @Chris Stacey , I have previously registered my interest and will sign up for a date I can make.

There are some good tips in this thread. Hope it's been helpful to people other than myself.