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Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Mr Latte, Jun 29, 2017.

  1. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Excellent, I hope though you changed the fans on those iNuke DSP amps as so many would be rather loud. Will you share at some point how you have utilised and configured your tactile installation?

    Great to see somone get into it in the way you have....
    Well done.
     
  2. Dennis Johnson

    Dennis Johnson

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    I have not as of yet changed the fans because I race in VR with headphones. I really don't notice them. I notice the heat buildup in my room more than the noise...lol. There's a lot of equipment running and lot's of heat being generated.
    Mr Latte, I plan on writing up a description of my setup and configurations soon.
    I hope it will be helpful. I have really tried to keep it as simple as possible and do not have a lot of profiles etc set up for each car or track. I have tried to set up universal profiles for each game, then just jump in and drive. I am sure I could get more detailed tactile and more realistic feedback but just haven't spend the time tweaking and tweaking and tweaking.

    Anyway, thanks for your kind words and stay tuned for an update
     
  3. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Ok will keep an eye out....
    Wondered how you put up with the noise lol but yeah I can see all that stuff get a bit warm.....

    I was mainly just curious on how you were using the EM with CM channels in what effects you liked or what combination felt good to you. Also how you incorporated the BK Concert. I don't think many people have a great deal of car specific profiles for each sim.

    I would appreciate if you did my little frequency test and gave your own scores sometime?
    Be nice to get your own comparison of the Concert to the Advance units.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  4. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Sim Shaker Wheels
    Further Testing & Progress


    So with now a really good working set of files in SSW.
    Currently just 2 Channel Here

    I have found once again just like in Simvibe how the Clark TST 429 just feels so much more detailed and smoother than the BK LFE models. This is very noticeable on the wheel slip and lateral G based effects with the actual sound files I am using.

    Uncertain or Not Bothered?
    Possibly some Behringer iNuke owners with "Sim Racing" are not taking full advantage of their amplifiers? Here is an example of how simple but brilliant it can be.


    What I am for doing in upcoming tests is to see with iNuke DSP how much I can push individual frequency ranges on the BK-LFE to increase the detail past what the unit delivers via normal amplification. This will help some others I am chatting with at present in building rather high-end tactile onto their cockpits with some using the BK LFE or the BK Advance models.
    @Magiashkii / @signman

    SSW
    [​IMG]

    Like in past when using the BK LFE for various tactile sources it starts to lose out in detail @60Hz and upwards frequencies. While not offering strong bass sensation these frequencies are important for many effects as they add a subtle firmness of substance and finer subtleties from effects that can easily be too weak or masked/lost when a BK is also producing other low-end frequencies.

    Part of the excellence with iNuke DSP
    Situation: All effects in SSW operating as normal

    BK-LFE limited to 100Hz Max Crossover
    [​IMG]

    Using Parametric EQ (PEQ)
    All Hz are set to -15dB except 1x 10Hz Range at a time.
    Notice we cover 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90Hz for individual control. We can set these to whatever we want. In this example 10Hz apart is ideal.

    Here below only 60Hz in this example will have much activity and its amplitude boosted to +15db max. See the visual how all the others the spikes are going down with max (minus) -dB.

    This +15db may be excessive but we can alter its amplitude to find a boost/cut level desired.
    [​IMG]

    With this example, we can really only only feel approx each 10Hz range we choose from all the effects that are operating in SSW. Here we will only feel how strong @ 60Hz frequency is being used regardless of what effects are active.

    Drive around the track as normal and this way it lets a user determine what Hz all or specific effects are using. Then we can choose to boost or cut these how we want for more for improved detailing. If needed, we can directly go to a specific "Center Frequency" value that's in between the sets of 10Hz (lets assume 57Hz) to then fine tune potentially a frequency that is active for an effect we want to address.

    30 mins to 1 hour spent doing this will allow a user to really fine tune and tweak their tactile beyond what can be done with a traditional amplifier. In this case, the user can easily feel more increased detail to help improve their units or indeed in this case, the BK-LFE to your own preference and what suits your cockpit build.

    I was very easily, able to give even more detail to curbs/bumps and improve the felt sensation for several of the effects with such fine tuning. Not just more strength with the strongest low-end frequencies. Then to save the settings in iNuke's memory and recall them again at anytime. With this, it is also possible to quickly try your tactile with and without the iNuke DSP features your using to see what benefits you may have added with your own alterations.

    Simple but rather impressive in a non impressive way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
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  5. Dennis Johnson

    Dennis Johnson

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    Hi,
    I have up loaded a pdf of my setup. I hope it is well organized and useful for you. If you do take the time to analyze it, I would appreciate any feedback that you might have. After taking the time to document my settings, I see some setting that might not make sense. It was a good exercise.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Cheers Dennis, will read over and digest but would be excellent to maybe get a chat with you sometime via Skype etc. If you want by all means PM.
     
  7. Dennis Johnson

    Dennis Johnson

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    Would you kindly show me the link again to your frequency test so I can do it? thanks
     
  8. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Try this if you could.
     
  9. Dennis Johnson

    Dennis Johnson

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    that would be great.
     
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  10. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Dennis I looked at some of the "Tones" your using for effects and not sure if it is the overrated "Auto Tune Intelligent Peaks" feature that is adapting previous manual settings. Yet from what I see or personally found is, that you have scope for much better use of frequencies.

    If you want give me an hour or so of your time and let's see what we can do, with a new profile.
    Then you can compare it to what you already have but really it's upto you friend.
     
  11. eSEA One

    eSEA One
    eSEA One

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    @Mr Latte Just a quick question why, and how would you use a crossover. I have them built into the two cheap Le Pye amps I am using at the moment (until I get an upgrade here ) the output for them is left right and a sub. FYI I also have a standalone crossover switch (not in use at the moment)
    I will post some photos of my setup later! Please don't laugh, its a desk and office chair setup.
     
  12. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    A common mistake with some of these cheap 2.1 amps inc crossovers is that unlike a speaker capable of producing full range audio they will use in conjunction these amps with basic/cheap tactile transducers. These amps are primarily to allow a sub to get a bass output to accompany small speakers.

    Some of the £/$ 50 or less tactile transducer units by their specifications are often restricted to very limited frequency ranges. I have had reports that some may only offer a tactile response only with @ 40-80Hz and then do so with limited energy also. You can see this from one of the current ongoing threads with a user, new to tactile, on a budget and having purchased a $30 Dayton BST 1 transducer.

    So with a source like "Audio Tactile" using full range of frequencies and levels of harmonics these units may produce limited actual vibration but can be quite audible like a speaker but sound a tad tinny and annoying.

    The purpose of the crossover is to determine what frequencies the tactile will operate with.
    In this example if, a user was using "Audio Tactile" as the source but restricted the crossover to a "Low Pass" max of 100Hz then any frequencies over 100Hz are not used. In this case it would remove much of the audible noise they may generate but let them still perform in producing tactile within their specifications. This is also the intention with speakers, where a small unit may not produce bass frequencies below eg: 60Hz but an accompanying subwoofer would. Therefore the crossover filters all frequencies from the input source to the setting eg: 60Hz the crossover is set for frequencies below this to go to the subwoofer output.

    Tactile Transducer Perspective:
    Really for bass/energy, you can feel as reported many times anything in around or above 100Hz is more akin to a mobile phone vibration. It will offer minor tingle or detailing.

    Simvibe while it can produce some effects upto @300Hz these are generally harmonics of much lower fundamental frequencies. Harmonics occur naturally and go into the KHz levels but really most people will use Simvibe "tone generated" effects with frequencies below 100Hz for tactile transducers to represent effects or felt sensations. You can test this with test-tone generators but will find the "tones" become more audible than felt.


    I had planned a thread sometime on more detail on frequencies and things like crossovers but already I feel on this topic I post too much and too often as little others get engaged with it. As already can be seen in various threads.

    Hope its some help though...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  13. Dennis Johnson

    Dennis Johnson

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    That would be Awsome! Like I said previously, after seeing the settings in the listing format that I came up with, some of the tones seemed over utilized and some under.... You are correct in that where it was possible, I used the auto tune feature because I don't understand the settings all that well and what affect the different options would have on my rig.

    I look forward to hearing from you. It is 10:41 am here in South Carolina.
    my email dpj463@yahoo.com
     
  14. eSEA One

    eSEA One
    eSEA One

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    It must have taken you a while to type all that out! LOL Anyway thanks for that. I will have to do some testing. If I use the crossover on the Amps I will only get the Sub channel whereas if I put my spare separate crossover I can put it on the 2 Channels from one amp, well at least test it. Mind you the Sub channel puts out a bit more power than the L/R channels. But from my readings of your posts I understand maybe my setup the CM might not be the best and would be better off on the EM. Then again I need to look into SSW !
     
  15. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Can do shorter posts (honest) for example:

    I can't say exactly until you share what you are using or how you want to configure your tactile installation/configuration.
     
  16. eSEA One

    eSEA One
    eSEA One

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    :laugh::roflmao: I see!! When I get home tonight I will take some photos and list my equipment.
     
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  17. eSEA One

    eSEA One
    eSEA One

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    Well here it is, My little corner. Pc off to the right. Wooden boxes are all the small spare parts tools and wiring for well!! DIY sim stuff. The triple screen and dash are on sliders,move back and forth so I can have space on the desk for normal use (well! alternative use) Backlight is off for Driving.
    IMG_20170816_204118.jpg

    Dash inspired and made possible by Wotever's SimHub Sequential shifter and Handbrake inspired by amstudio videos MAKE THIS ANALOG HANDBRAKE USB | SIM RACING DIY EBRAKE and MAKE THIS SEQUENTIAL SHIFTER USB | DIY SIM RACING
    You can just make out the Lepy amps (for the transducers)either side of the wheel below the dash
    IMG_20170816_204147.jpg

    TH H Shifter
    IMG_20170816_204333.jpg

    Amp installation, Headset USB unit on the left and the two connections for the shifter s and brake on the right
    IMG_20170816_222707.jpg IMG_20170816_222819.jpg
    Sinustec 14019 BS 250 Noise Generator 4 Ohm, Black by Reckhorn Transducers in CM for rear installation. These are on wooden mounts with bolted on the inside with a little hard rubber between the wood and the steel chair arm brackets outer part of the wooden mounts have hard rubber wedged between the mounts and the outer part of the arms, this seems to give a left and right definition. Chair sits on a carpet, it is also is conected with adjustable webbing straps to the desk with quick release buckles to aid getting in and out, webbing that can be seen on both sides are fixed to the arms.
    IMG_20170816_202444.jpg

    Pedal installation: Pedals and L/R transducers in CM at the back cantilevered on wooden battens (seen in foreground under pedal base) that are isolated on the sloped pedal mount . Above Black box is the sub woofer and base for the Altec Lansing (ACS 56) 4+1 surround sound system when not using headset, below you can see the rear speakers that get pulled out when needed. Old PC PSU to power the LePye amps and other DC voltage requirements. this is switched on and off on the dash
    IMG_20170816_202612.jpg
    Canterleaverd mounted cheap shaker - this I think helps amplify the movement of the shaker. By the way I have 2 more of these that were under the seat before the bigger Sinustec BS 250's which I might use again for EM under the shifter/ wheel mount shelf
    IMG_20170816_202638.jpg

    Rumble motors salvaged from my first wheel (no FFB) by MadCatz, these are driven by Wotever's Shakeit, Multigame rumble motors for seat, pedals (a.k.a. poor man's bass shaker) I only use this for wheel lock (brake) and acceleration slip (throttle) Foam packing to give the brake better progressive feel.
    IMG_20170816_202907.jpg
    That's it for the moment
    Ok too late for some Hz testing will have to be another evening.
     
  18. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Thanks for sharing, so we see you like to add a spot of d.i.y and creativity with some "tinkering". Excellent, no harm in showing what you have but it would be good to get from you your own experiences and highlight what you feel you are lacking or perhaps restricted with the tactile you have. I would look forward to your tests on frequencies with these units you have.

    Then discuss how or in which way to gradually move forward if desired.


    What I would expect you to find, is what is common with @ 40-80Hz, being quite good and they may be best @ 40-60Hz where the majority of their own energy output is found.

    Same But Different?
    Another factor is that two fairly affordable units outputting a frequency range of say eg: 40-80Hz (assuming within their operating specs). Running both at similar volumes on the same amplifiers, will not necessarily output the same level of energy being felt with these same frequencies. Both are producing similar frequencies but what matters is also how well they can deliver them.

    I Have the POWER!!!
    This is not just a wattage thing neither. People seem almost obsessed with wattage ratings as the standard to determine potential performance. Each transducer model/design will have its own maximum potential in the energy it can deliver with various frequencies. A Buttkicker generally delivers more energy due to their piston based design. Yet they require a minimum and generally more wattage to move the piston. When it comes to low frequencies and even those below 50Hz then also the quality of bass/energy an amplifier can deliver with these frequencies is also very relevant. Many cheap amps do not need to deliver good energy here as they are generally designed to work with cheap speakers that won't really deliver much response below this 50Hz bass range. So for tactile, that does require such then it is an important factor to have an amp that can deliver low frequencies and with adequate clout. This is one reason why amps designed in mind to power large drivers or woofers are a good match for tactile as they are designed to constantly output strong energy with frequencies below 40,30,20,10 Hz. Stereo amps, particularly cheap ones are not designed necessarily for this role or are well matched for a quality tactile experience.

    Familiar Picture But Listen?
    We could take speakers or headphones as an example. 5 different models, each could all be playing the same music, from the same source, at the same/similar wattage output, yet some will deliver more bass and energy with the mid-low frequencies than others. This due to the components used and design more focused on delivering better performance. Yet all the models will likely claim in specs similar frequency responses. The same could be said with different amplifiers used on these speakers/headphones, as certain amps may deliver certain frequencies with more amplitude/energy be it hard hitting punchy bass or providing warmth and smoothness to the sound palette than others. This is often then, why in hifi you can find people that match particular products together, as some compound on their individual strengths or characteristics.


    Going back to tactile....
    Good amp that can deliver low bass is relevant. How relevant depends on the quality of the tactile being used. A good tactile unit being used on a weedy bass cheapo amp will be wasted/limited. A performance limited tactile unit with a good amp will still just perform at its own potential best. A good amp and good tactile unit will produce excellent results.

    Listed Specs Vs Real World Performance:
    I see some models for example, several cheap Rockwood transducers from Sintron (found on Amazon) that may list specs like 20Hz-55Hz. This is very narrow and limited frequency range. Even then I welcome anyone to try test-tones on these with 20-30Hz and at their max potential volume to clarify just how underwhelming they will likely feel with these rather low frequencies yet are within their listed specs.

    Discern for a moment this chart and compare the size of the grids for different frequencies.
    See the size scale that covers from 5 - 30Hz compared to 30Hz and beyond. If I am correct in my understanding the bandwidth/energy found in 5-30Hz (25Hz range) is equivalent to that found from 30Hz to approx 140Hz (110Hz range) or more. Hence why each increase in Hz produces less bass sensation. For a tactile unit to deliver these really low frequencies requires it and an amplifier to be cable of delivering the sufficient energy to output the frequency with much feeling or sensation if at all. Throwing a pile of whats at something that has a limit to the energy it can produce will not make it produce more than it is physically possible of doing. This is where the efficiency and potential power of the magnets used in the unit and how the unit generates force, be it a "piston" or "coil" design will have a big part in determining the quality of the tactile experience.

    [​IMG]
    Non-scientific eg: highlighting potential lowest Hz feel good points on different Buttkicker Models.
    *Blue line dictates approx 130Hz

    Lower frequencies
    by their nature, always require much more energy and are therefore harder for a unit to deliver with sufficient energy.

    Simvibe Limitations To Expect:
    For Simvibe as example how does a user go about using a range of various effects, to then have these effects all feel different/unique when the units they own may have a very narrow frequency range in which they actually do feel much or any good with. Even the most common 40-80Hz (feel good range) is rather limited to try and cram several effects into. This is one reason why some people will say "fewer effects used" is giving more (in immersion) than having lots of effects operating at once. As what happens is the usage of multiple effects using similar frequencies can boost the amplitude of these frequencies to a point of clipping or that the unit used is then overwhelmed or not delivering its potential or best-composed detail.

    Basically if buying cheap then expect to have more limitations, not just in the Hz available that will feel good but also how many or what effects can be used and these effects not all feel like the same. People tend to use similar frequencies, as they revert to the ones that feel good/better on their tactile when perhaps individually testing/configuring effects. Yet with Simvibe, one key is determining which effects or how to prioritise, which effects should get priority over the best Hz each user's actual tactile units can deliver. That's another discussion perhaps for another time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  19. eSEA One

    eSEA One
    eSEA One

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    First of all thanks for the knowledge you share with us, it is greatly appreciated. I understand the "Cheap - Limitations factor" As you can see I have a TM T300 but would love to drive a DDW (one day) Let me tell you that if I have the tactiles off I completely loose the immersion factor, so for now a cheap one is better than none at all. All I want to do is maximise what I have and then when I can upgrade it will just be better. The next Item on my list is better amps. The "SMSL SA-98E"'s are on the radar. But that is only going to drive 2 transducers so I need 2 of these but once again the budget thing.
    First off I must do some tone testing and find what I have compare the two diffrent models I have. Test just the "Sinustec 14019 BS 250's" in EM - If this is a better experience then in the CM with the cheaper ones for the front end. then The "SMSL SA-98E" amp will on the books .
     
  20. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    I totally get what your saying.

    I've helped and seen people with using small Dayton Puck and they still enjoy the tactile it brings. Even though they are experiencing it in a rather limited way, yes what it adds is often missed or hard to go back to racing/gaming and then not using it.

    The Sinustec model you have does appear to be similar to the Reckhorn. Although I am not certain if identical as the Reckhorn BS200i which stated here had an improved magnet incorporated to previous versions of the Reckhorn model. They may indeed use identical components.

    If so then certainly in the UK/Europe the Sinustec ST-BS 250 available for @ £10 less than the BS200i. So is a good purchase for such a low price. These may be one of the best budget transducers available as the ADX over here in UK is almost twice the price. Between these, the performances may be rather similar.

    To be honest I'd love to test and take apart "Barry Roland" style all 3 to find out.

    The other model you have appears to be like a Sintron / Rockwood model so I certainly expect it to offer less depth/energy and less detailing too with higher frequencies. It's harder to recommend these and not spend a bit more to get something better.

    Thanks for sharing and I look forward to your own tests.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
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